2nd Vatican Council

[TNT]

itsjustdave1988:

So how could Vatican II be blamed? If the seeds of discontent manifested itself in the 1950’s, then it seems to me there was a problem before Vatican II, which points to poor catechesis within seminaries and laity in the pre-Vatican II Church.
…A significant number of these bad priests and the bishops who mismanaged the problem were raised on the much beloved Baltimore Catechism and the Tridentine Mass. I have to conclude that to blame Vatican II and the Pauline Mass for this is absurd.

Many “moral theologians” and seminary instructors were well comtaminated by the 1940’s, not a majority, but an minority in places of influence.
Actually, many of the seminaries were the first to receive the “New Theology” and the virtues of “liturgical reform” in the late 40’s. After all, you can’t make “progress” unless the clergy are “prepared” by training to enforce it.
The “Spirit of Vat II” was followed openly after 1965, especially in the seminaries. Why was there so much clerical desent on Hum.Vitae? It was reflective of the training 20 years earlier. And the “spirit of Vat II” was much more fun than the Baltimore Catechism.
BTW:
Most of the bishops of VAT II are resting in “peace”. 95% of the current bishops were priests after VAT II. The vast majority of those were placed by JPII, who is responsible for keeping or removing them.

 

[Rara_Avis]

TNT:

Actually, many of the seminaries were the first to receive the “New Theology” and the virtues of “liturgical reform” in the late 40’s. After all, you can’t make “progress” unless the clergy are “prepared” by training to enforce it.

You are right - infiltration of the Church started well before VII - if it had not the clergy and the people never would have accepted it.

Not so long ago one used to hear the remark, by both Catholic and non-Catholic that the Catholic Church is in the forfront of the fight against Communish. This is as it should be, for the atheism and materialism of Communism are the antithesis of Christain doctrine; and the destruction of religion is a majaor Communist goal.

Marxists were determined to destroy this bastion of religion and freedom.

Bishop Fulton Sheen, auxiliary bishop of New York, whle giving a discourse at Saint Suzanna of Rome revealed that in 1936 the American Communists recruited some agents for infiltrating the religious communities to destroy them from within. An appeal was made for volunteers to become priests and study in the seminaries.

Albert Vassart, a former member of the French Communist Party revealed in 1955 that Moscow had issued a 1936 order that carefully selected members of Communist youth to enter seminaries and, after training, receive ordination a priests. … Manning Johnson, a former official of the Communist Party in America, gave the following testimony in 1953 to the House Un-American Activities Committee: 'Once the tactic of infiltration of religious insitutions was set by the Kremlin… The Communists discovered that the destruction of religion could proceed much faster through the infiltration of the Church by Communists operating within the Church itself.

 

[Rara_Avis]

The warnings of Pope St. Pius X were prophetic.

In his encyclical letter Editae Saepe Dei, Pope St. Ppius X further warned:

Theses enemies of the Church are to be sought not only among the Church’s open enemies; but…in Her very bosom, and are the more mischievous the less the keep in the open. These enemies are lay people and priest thorourghly imbued with the poisonous doctrines taught by the enemies of the Chruch and who put themselves forward as reformers of the Church.

Although Pope St. Pous X took severe measures to combat Modernism, especially through his encyclical Pascendi (1907), the poison had already been widely circulated. By the time Pope Pius XII assumed office in 1939, many of the Modernist clergy had attained prominent posts within the Church. During the final years of Pius XII’s reign, he allowed the number of cardinals or papal electors to be reduced from its usual number of 70 members to 53, the lowest number in many years. He refused to replace the cardinals who had died because he believed that many of the bishops were infected with Modernism.

Pope Pius XII’s premonition that Modernists would control the next conclave was well founded. After the pope’s death on October 8, 1958, the convert Modernists finally were able to obtain their long awaited freedom of activity because the election of Angelo Roncalli on October 28, 1958.

 

[Rara_Avis]

otm:

She and I both attribute truth to it because we were there before Vatican 2. Were you? Or are you only a starry-eyed individual who pines for the"good old days"?

Pius X said it; however, about as many people listend to him as listen to the current Pope.

I can not account for what people do or do not listen too - I can only account for the fact that I do not pick up a “pre Vactican II” Catholic book on the Mass or devotions that says you are NOT to pray or participate in the Mass

**How to use the Missal - Our Goal and Our Guides **(pre VII Gr. 9 religious study)

Those who want ot fulfill the wish of the Church by living the spirit of the liturgy must, as far as possible, take part in her public worship. They should use the very book the Church uses at the Holy Sacrifice - the Missal.

Always begin the Mass by turning to the Ordinary of the Mass. Then begin with the priest the prayers at the foot of the altar and follow straight through the Ordinary, etc.

OR

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - by Ellamay Horan

“The best method of assisting at Mass is to unite with the priest in offering the Holy Sacrifice, and to receive Holy Communion.” This statement is the answer to Question 364 in the Revised Baltimore Catechism, No. 2.

OR

Imitation of Christ

---

“But if I am so often negligent and luke warm now when I communicate, or celebrate, how would it be were I not to take this remedy, and seek so great a help?
And although I am not every day fit nor well disposed to celebrate, yet I will endeavor at proper times, to receive the divine mysteries, and to make myself partaker of so great a grace.”

If one were to read and meditate on the “Imitation of Christ” one would perhaps better understand how they are to behave in the Presence of God - Mass

Yes I find no lack of written material pre VII that tells me how I am to behave at Mass.

 

[maklavan]

A little reminder that Vatican 2 was inspired by the Holy Spririt and its pronouncements are infallible. Some of the posings in this thread have benn openly defiant and dismissive of it.

 

[Trelow]

Kevin Walker:

It is also extreme to blindly obey any person of authority, especially when they perform questionable acts (hence the sexual abuse scandal in the Church where kids mindlessly obeyed the demands of an authority figure - a homosexual priest). Besides, Vactican II is a managerial blunder, not error in interpreting scripture. I have the experience to have been around before and after Vatican II, and I had more of a feeling of being a Roman Catholic before VII than after!

Quite frankly my dear, feelings don’t mean squat. Feelings are what led said priests to molest.

And you analogy has no merit. Someone’s personal actions, and the power of Peter’s Keys don’t hold the same weight.

 

[TNT]

maklavan:

A little reminder that Vatican 2 was inspired by the Holy Spririt and its pronouncements are infallible. Some of the posings in this thread have benn openly defiant and dismissive of it.

That’s a 2-edged sword.
“no changes in the Mass unless organic…Latin is pride of place…gregorian chant retained…” etc.
So, where is all that in the NOM as PRACTICED in English-speaking countries or French for that matter?
Aren’t those affirmations infallible? If so, where is the obedience to them in your parish, diocese?

The design of the NOM disembows most of Vat II “led by the HS, infallible” affirmations.
Is not the whole purpose of Adoremus to restore the literal of the Vat II affirmations? If NOM is faithful to Vat II, Adoremus is a useless pleading, right?

 

[Munda_cor_meum]

maklavan:

A little reminder that Vatican 2 was inspired by the Holy Spririt and its pronouncements are infallible. Some of the posings in this thread have benn openly defiant and dismissive of it.

Do you realize the great paradox you’ve just introduced? Many people agree that Vatican II is infallible because it was an Ecumenical council, etc., etc.

If this is the case, and its pronouncements are infallible, it was speaking the absolute truth when it identified itself as a Pastoral council.

So, now we have a classic paradox. If Vatican II is infallible, then it isn’t infallible.

The only solution to this that I can think of to this are that Vatican II is not infallible or that only portions of Vatican II are infallible.

If the latter, which ones? Maybe only those that Vatican II itself identified as infallible?

 

[CrusaderNY]

Thats why it was decided to be used, as Latin was dead language at the times of Trent , refer to the Council of Trent documents. Do you know of any countries that spoke Latin in the 1500’s? The church and St Pius V had a plan, but the Modernists did not like that, was not good enough for them. As far as the ICEL or whoever is responsible for the translation, that is semantics, the Vatican initiated the Mass in the spirit of Modernism, could not even get the translations correct and are now farming that out 40 years later to get it right.
Sort of like Iraq, once you break it, now you have to fix it, and the Modernists have broke/destroyed the church, why dont they just go away and let the conservatives fix it?

otm:

You need to get your facts straight.

To say that it is incorrect is to make a statement that is a half-truth. Furthermore, the Vatican doen’t make the traslation, the ICEL committee does. It did not retranslate the Mass (either the Vatican, shich doesn’t do that or the ICEL, which does), but the ICEL has been working on translating it and resolving a number of issues.

Guess what? The translation we are using was approved by the Vatican. Is it perfect? no, and at least in part because while English is generally spoken in a number of countries, word useage and word meaning are not entirely identical. All of which has little or nothing to do with changing the Mass to Latin. Until Latin became a dead language, it, too would change over time and location.

 

[CrusaderNY]

Where there is some smoke there is fire, the catholic church had been the envy and at one time the most powerful force on this planet, powerful enough, that only 500 years ago when a Pope called a call to arms, we jumped, to the point that we could not be defeated,we started to weaken after the French revolution, when the Pope was held captive by Napolean, and not to long after by the Austrians and later the King of Italy, when the Pope was rescued by the Swiss guards, but they could never defeat our beliefs and faith from the outside, so they decided, and books were publised (Ever Read the Masonic codes, the Zionist Protocols. or even the Talmud for that matter?) as they all had a hatred for Catholicism and decided that we can be destroyed from within.

And they succeeded, people like you have bought into these changes of Vatican II and the liberal mindset, and the guilt and all that other hogwash. I still believe we are the one true faith and refuse to listen to the love fest that is going on today as the church is in the business of saving souls and getting people to heaven, not to give them a comfortable existance here on earth, Jesus carried his cross, and life is not meant to not have a cross, something the new church, and it is a new church, does not preach anymore

otm:

Can you say conspiratorialist? I suppose the Bermuda Traingle had something to do with it, too. Or was it the working of the Army secret base in Nevada…

 

[otm]

Rara Avis:

You are right - infiltration of the Church started well before VII - if it had not the clergy and the people never would have accepted it.

Not so long ago one used to hear the remark, by both Catholic and non-Catholic that the Catholic Church is in the forfront of the fight against Communish. This is as it should be, for the atheism and materialism of Communism are the antithesis of Christain doctrine; and the destruction of religion is a majaor Communist goal.

Marxists were determined to destroy this bastion of religion and freedom.

Bishop Fulton Sheen, auxiliary bishop of New York, whle giving a discourse at Saint Suzanna of Rome revealed that in 1936 the American Communists recruited some agents for infiltrating the religious communities to destroy them from within. An appeal was made for volunteers to become priests and study in the seminaries.

Albert Vassart, a former member of the French Communist Party revealed in 1955 that Moscow had issued a 1936 order that carefully selected members of Communist youth to enter seminaries and, after training, receive ordination a priests. … Manning Johnson, a former official of the Communist Party in America, gave the following testimony in 1953 to the House Un-American Activities Committee: 'Once the tactic of infiltration of religious insitutions was set by the Kremlin… The Communists discovered that the destruction of religion could proceed much faster through the infiltration of the Church by Communists operating within the Church itself.

OK, now I get it. Vatican 2 was really a plot by the KGB and the Kremlin; Pope John the XXIII was a fellow traveler; Better than 50% of the bishops and cardinals were card carrying members of the Communist party, or at least Comm Simps, Pope Paul VI was a dupe, and it is all a plot. Thank you for explaining it so clearly.

You and Senator McCarthy would have seen eye to eye; you both find a Communist behind anything you don’t like.

You are right; you are a rare bird…

 

[katherine2]

otm:

OK, now I get it. Vatican 2 was really a plot by the KGB and the Kremlin; Pope John the XXIII was a fellow traveler; Better than 50% of the bishops and cardinals were card carrying members of the Communist party, or at least Comm Simps, Pope Paul VI was a dupe, and it is all a plot. Thank you for explaining it so clearly.

…

Somehow, I know the Jews, Freemasons and the Trilaterial Commission will come into this eventually.

 

[CrusaderNY]

You are wrong, it was not a dogmatic council at all, and therefore not insired by the Holy spirit, check your history

maklavan:

A little reminder that Vatican 2 was inspired by the Holy Spririt and its pronouncements are infallible. Some of the posings in this thread have benn openly defiant and dismissive of it.

 

[CrusaderNY]

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. "Always drive minds toward a greater charity, a larger fraternity. Never talk about God, but about the greatness of man. Bit by bit transform the language and the attitude of mind. Man must occupy the first place.

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II ** The Novus Ordo service becomes a communal meal, rather than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The crucifix, the tabernacle, and the statues of God’s Saints are eliminated, while man effusively praises himself. Secular politics become the focus of bishops’ attention, not the worship of God and the keeping of His Commandments. Churches are closed. Traditional worship is replaced by self-serving hootenannies, such as those at World Youth Conference, sponsored by the pope.

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. “The order was also very simple: It was absolutely forbidden for Protestants to convert to Catholicism. And I had this point very much at heart, because conversions had attained an accelerated pace.”

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II ** Just before Vatican II, conversions to Catholicism from Protestantism and even Judaism were plentiful. Even noted figures publicly converted. After Vatican II, when heretical Indifferentism became the de-facto theology (“we all pray to the same God”; “all religions are equal”), conversions slowed to a trickle. When a schismatic Eastern Orthodox Patriarch approached the Vatican to convert, the Vatican told him to stay as he was. Jews are told that Christ is not their Messias."

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. “I also proposed inter-confessional Biblical meetings. This was my real aim, and moreover it could even go further, by adding a benevolent examination of the Koran and of some other oriental books.”

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II ** Catholics had always been prohibited from attending inter-denominational Bible meetings and studies because of the corruption of the true Faith that they involved. Now one sees, even on “Catholic” television (like Mother Angelica’s EWTN), supposedly “former” Protestants taking the lead in teaching Catholics about the meaning of Scripture. The pope himself scandalized the whole Roman Catholic Church by bowing down to kiss the abominable Koran of the Mohammedans, which contains vicious slurs against Our Lord and the Blessed Virgin.

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. “It is altogether reasonable to hope that the cure will be at hand for the year 2000 [remember, this was planned in 1940!]. A certain number of words must be banished completely from the human vocabulary, and the best method is to be sure that children never hear these words. That is why it is much better to compose a new catechism than to hope for a simple suppression of all religious teaching.”

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II **. The new Vatican II Catechism, which went through several editions before the changes in doctrine could be gotten just right, was written by a group of ecclesiastical hacks who were so incompetent that they could not read the original sources in Latin and Greek. Compare this committee with those who authored the Roman Catechism after the Council of Trent: St. Charles Borromeo, St. Robert Bellarmine, and the like. Much Catholic doctrine was “nuanced away,” like the common teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church about the justice of capital punishment, or simply omitted, like the common teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church about limbo. Words like Hell, Purgatory, sin and the like were used as little as possible. I know a teacher who was called into question when he mentioned to his Novus Ordo middle-school class the Church’s dogma about Hell.

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. “The word charity must absolutely be banished and be replaced by the world love, which allows you to keep your feet on the ground and even to play all kinds of ambiguous games without seeming to do so.”

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY THE VATICAN II NEW ORDER. The word love has proliferated like no other word in the post-conciliar Church, and its meaning in English and other modern tongues is certainly ambiguous. The Latin and Greek Bibles had separate words for various types of love: love of family, love of friends, love of God, sexual love. English and other modern languages entirely blur these important distinctions. How does Christ define love? “If you love Me, obey My commandments.” That meaning isn’t even included in New Order “love”! No, we must “love” homosexuality, we must “love” divorce, we must “love” apostasy from the Faith.

 

[otm]

Rara Avis:

The warnings of Pope St. Pius X were prophetic.

In his encyclical letter Editae Saepe Dei, Pope St. Ppius X further warned:

Theses enemies of the Church are to be sought not only among the Church’s open enemies; but…in Her very bosom, and are the more mischievous the less the keep in the open. These enemies are lay people and priest thorourghly imbued with the poisonous doctrines taught by the enemies of the Chruch and who put themselves forward as reformers of the Church.

Although Pope St. Pous X took severe measures to combat Modernism, especially through his encyclical Pascendi (1907), the poison had already been widely circulated. By the time Pope Pius XII assumed office in 1939, many of the Modernist clergy had attained prominent posts within the Church. During the final years of Pius XII’s reign, he allowed the number of cardinals or papal electors to be reduced from its usual number of 70 members to 53, the lowest number in many years. He refused to replace the cardinals who had died because he believed that many of the bishops were infected with Modernism.

Pope Pius XII’s premonition that Modernists would control the next conclave was well founded. After the pope’s death on October 8, 1958, the convert Modernists finally were able to obtain their long awaited freedom of activity because the election of Angelo Roncalli on October 28, 1958.

Oh yes, Modernism, that other boogeyman in the closet. It is such an easy fall-back to use a term that has such imprecise definition; you just throw it out there and it sounds so impressive to everyone listening. The only diffculties are that this so-called philosophy is over 100 years old (there have been a few new philosophies since then - each with their attendant problems) and that it promotes sloppy, foggey thinking rather than intelligent definition of what the root of any error is. One might just as easily replace the word “Modernism” with the word dissent; neither really gets at the root of the difficulty.

C’mon, we went through Post Modernism a while ago. I would suggest that with many Catholics, Relativism is more the problem than Modernism.

Too many self-appointed critics simply use the word “Modernism” as a catch-all phrase for anything that they don’t understand, and doesn’t sound like 19th century language. Their problem most often is not Modernism, but a simplistic understanding of theology.

 

[otm]

CrusaderNY:

You are wrong, it was not a dogmatic council at all, and therefore not insired by the Holy spirit, check your history

You are correct that it was not a dogmatic Council.

Would you please cite the theological textbook which holds that only dogmatic Councils are inspired by the Holy Spirit?

 

[otm]

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. "Always drive minds toward a greater charity, a larger fraternity. Never talk about God, but about the greatness of man. Bit by bit transform the language and the attitude of mind. Man must occupy the first place.

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II ** The Novus Ordo service becomes a communal meal, rather than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The crucifix, the tabernacle, and the statues of God’s Saints are eliminated, while man effusively praises himself. Secular politics become the focus of bishops’ attention, not the worship of God and the keeping of His Commandments. Churches are closed. Traditional worship is replaced by self-serving hootenannies, such as those at World Youth Conference, sponsored by the pope.

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. “The order was also very simple: It was absolutely forbidden for Protestants to convert to Catholicism. And I had this point very much at heart, because conversions had attained an accelerated pace.”

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II ** Just before Vatican II, conversions to Catholicism from Protestantism and even Judaism were plentiful. Even noted figures publicly converted. After Vatican II, when heretical Indifferentism became the de-facto theology (“we all pray to the same God”; “all religions are equal”), conversions slowed to a trickle. When a schismatic Eastern Orthodox Patriarch approached the Vatican to convert, the Vatican told him to stay as he was. Jews are told that Christ is not their Messias."

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. “I also proposed inter-confessional Biblical meetings. This was my real aim, and moreover it could even go further, by adding a benevolent examination of the Koran and of some other oriental books.”

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II ** Catholics had always been prohibited from attending inter-denominational Bible meetings and studies because of the corruption of the true Faith that they involved. Now one sees, even on “Catholic” television (like Mother Angelica’s EWTN), supposedly “former” Protestants taking the lead in teaching Catholics about the meaning of Scripture. The pope himself scandalized the whole Roman Catholic Church by bowing down to kiss the abominable Koran of the Mohammedans, which contains vicious slurs against Our Lord and the Blessed Virgin.

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. “It is altogether reasonable to hope that the cure will be at hand for the year 2000 [remember, this was planned in 1940!]. A certain number of words must be banished completely from the human vocabulary, and the best method is to be sure that children never hear these words. That is why it is much better to compose a new catechism than to hope for a simple suppression of all religious teaching.”

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II **. The new Vatican II Catechism, which went through several editions before the changes in doctrine could be gotten just right, was written by a group of ecclesiastical hacks who were so incompetent that they could not read the original sources in Latin and Greek. Compare this committee with those who authored the Roman Catechism after the Council of Trent: St. Charles Borromeo, St. Robert Bellarmine, and the like. Much Catholic doctrine was “nuanced away,” like the common teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church about the justice of capital punishment, or simply omitted, like the common teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church about limbo. Words like Hell, Purgatory, sin and the like were used as little as possible. I know a teacher who was called into question when he mentioned to his Novus Ordo middle-school class the Church’s dogma about Hell.

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. “The word charity must absolutely be banished and be replaced by the world love, which allows you to keep your feet on the ground and even to play all kinds of ambiguous games without seeming to do so.”

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY THE VATICAN II NEW ORDER. The word love has proliferated like no other word in the post-conciliar Church, and its meaning in English and other modern tongues is certainly ambiguous. The Latin and Greek Bibles had separate words for various types of love: love of family, love of friends, love of God, sexual love. English and other modern languages entirely blur these important distinctions. How does Christ define love? “If you love Me, obey My commandments.” That meaning isn’t even included in New Order “love”! No, we must “love” homosexuality, we must “love” divorce, we must “love” apostasy from the Faith.

Would you please cite your source from which you appear to be quoting?

 

[otm]

CrusaderNY:

Where there is some smoke there is fire, the catholic church had been the envy and at one time the most powerful force on this planet, powerful enough, that only 500 years ago when a Pope called a call to arms, we jumped, to the point that we could not be defeated,we started to weaken after the French revolution, when the Pope was held captive by Napolean, and not to long after by the Austrians and later the King of Italy, when the Pope was rescued by the Swiss guards, but they could never defeat our beliefs and faith from the outside, so they decided, and books were publised (Ever Read the Masonic codes, the Zionist Protocols. or even the Talmud for that matter?) as they all had a hatred for Catholicism and decided that we can be destroyed from within.

And they succeeded, people like you have bought into these changes of Vatican II and the liberal mindset, and the guilt and all that other hogwash. I still believe we are the one true faith and refuse to listen to the love fest that is going on today as the church is in the business of saving souls and getting people to heaven, not to give them a comfortable existance here on earth, Jesus carried his cross, and life is not meant to not have a cross, something the new church, and it is a new church, does not preach anymore

People like me? Wow! What am I , a Cardinal? A Bishop? Or just a Liberal?

Strange; I have a number of truly liberal friends who think I am somewhat to the right of Atilla the Hun.

Oh, I forgot. anyone you don’t agree with is a liberal… new definition of the word. I’ll remember to note that in my Funk and Wagnells…

Yeah, we sure wouldn’t want to have any of those messy love fests; I mean, who want’s to follow Christ’s command of “Love one another as I have loved you”?

Oh, and the Talmud? Kind of hard to call that anti Christian, considering it was extent at the time of Christ, and He followed it.

My, you have an interesting view of history.

 

[TNT]

otm:

People like me? Wow! What am I , a Cardinal? A Bishop? Or just a Liberal?
…Oh, and the Talmud? Kind of hard to call that anti Christian, considering it was extent at the time of Christ, and He followed it.

My, you have an interesting view of history.

I want to believe you mean Torah. Actually, I pray that you mean Torah.
Many of the traditions of the Jewish rabbi’s were later encapsulated in the Talmud writings. Christ refers to these as “traditions of men” in a condemnation rebuking the pharisees.
The Talmud was written way way past the Resurrection.
Most Jewish rabbis use the Talmud today, and not the Torah.

 

[otm]

TNT:

I want to believe you mean Torah. Actually, I pray that you mean Torah.
Many of the traditions of the Jewish rabbi’s were later encapsulated in the Talmud writings. Christ refers to these as “traditions of men” in a condemnation rebuking the pharisees.
The Talmud was written way way past the Resurrection.
Most Jewish rabbis use the Talmud today, and not the Torah.

Yep, you are right. I have too many things distracting me right now…