2nd Vatican Council

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Huh…Steadily declining? The only seminarians allowed to ordination today in probably 150 of the 200 seminaries in the US are those that profess to woman ordination, extreme liberalism or are Gay, or all three, which the homosexual is, and this was all in the reform of Vatican II. And I dont care what is said, if you are gay, you stand to be a child abuser, as there are groups out there that make no secret about this (ever hear of NAMBLA-National Association of Man Boy Love Association). I had a friend who was about to enter college, I guess 17 or so and dumped his girlfriend for no reason and showed up at a party with his new date, as he came out of the closet and guess what it was? A 40 year old Catholic Priest that he started dating. This was I guess in 1984 or something.

And as far as Kung and those, the liberal swell in the church started in the 50’s and continues to this day. I go to mass now and I shake my head at some of the sermons I hear, and when I get a priest that actually talks with a voice that sounds somewhat heterosexual, it is a rarity.
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itsjustdave1988:
Exporter,
Do you know what percentage of priests involved in sex abuse were raised and catechized on the pre-Vatican II Church? The reports show a drastic increase of sex abuse incidents involving the clergy beginning in the 1950s, continuing to rise until it’s peak in the 1970s, then steadily declining. I don’t see how this increase or subsequent decrease is in any way correlated to the Ecumenical council of 1965-1968. Seems rather uncorrelated to me.

Fr. Hans Kung was raised on the Tridentine liturgy, and yet he’s among the most dissident priests we have. So was Fr. Charles Curran. After *Humanae Vitae *was promulgated in 1968, the significant number of defections from the clergy, breaking their priestly oath, some even marrying against canon law and leaving the Church were ALL raised on the pre-Vatican II Church. Seems to me the pre-Vatican II seminaries dropped the ball in producing such disloyal priests during this era.
 
The translation from the Latin is incorrect,to this day the Vatican I think just recently once again re-translated the Mass and the Bishops STILL dont agree, it is a travesty, the council is one thing, to change the Mass was a disaster and the church has been paying the price for almost 5 decades and counting…Pope Pius XIII , God please send him to us now!!!
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otm:
There are no concerns whatsoever as to the validity of the Pauline rite within the Church. The only people who question the validity are those who have seperated themsleves off from the Church, and have endowed themselves with judgemental power based on invalid theology.

I have yet to hear a priest ad lib the words of Consecration. Presuming, for the sake of arguement, that it has happened, I have yet to hear anyone acutally say they attended a Mas where it occured. And to move from that to the assumption that it is wide spread defies facts and is a slander to the thousands of priests who don’t.
 
In the 1960s, a French Catholic nurse, Marie Carré attended an auto-crash victim who was brought into her hospital. The man lingered there near death for a few hours and then died. The book was originally published in May 1972 in French under the title ES-1025, ES standing for Élève Seminariste, or Seminary Student. In 1973 it was published in English as AA-1025, AA standing for Anti-Apostle.

It is a succinct (125 pages or so) account of an atheistic Communist mole, who in 1940 was purposely sent by his superiors to inflitrate the Catholic priesthood, along with 1024 others at that time, charged with the mission to subvert and destroy the Church from within by helping effect its auto-destruction, a odd term specifically used by Paul VI years later in his December 7, 1968, Address to the Lombard Seminary at Rome. The Anti-Apostle and his 1024 colleagues were triumphantly successful, as far as the New Order Church goes.

The Anti-Apostle makes clear the basis of his plan to effect the auto-destruction of the Church.

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. "You must drive into the head of men, and particularly the head of Churchmen, to search for, at any price, a universal religion into which all churches would be melded together. So that this idea could take form and life, we must inculcate in pious people, especially Roman Catholics, a feeling of guilt concerning the unique truth in which they pretend to live… [This Universal Church] could not be otherwise but simple. So that all men could enter it, it could retain a vague idea of a God, more or less Creator, according to the times.

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II ** Catholics are now told they cannot say that their Church is the one true Church, but that the Church of Christ only “subsists in” the Catholic Church (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, November 21, 1964, paragraph 8)

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. "We should succeed in the end … by numerous and subtle means. I look at the Catholic Church as if it were a sphere. To destroy it, you must attack it in numerous small points until it loses all resemblance to what it was before.

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II **
The vast number of individual changes making up the whole of the New Order Church is staggering: vulgar tongues instead of sacred Latin used at services, new “eucharistic prayers,” a new form of non-apostolic “consecration,” communion in the hand, altar servettes, elimination of crucifixes, elimination of tabernacles, elimination of statues, “general confession” replacing sacramental confession, elimination of kneelers, introduction of vulgar music at services, “white” funerals, elimination of any concept of sin/Hell/Purgatory, eulogies at Catholic funerals for thrice-divorced men and homosexual panderers, and on and on the list goes.

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. "To stress that Catholics are responsible for the division among Christians, because, by their refusal to compromise, they caused schisms and heresies. To come to a point that every Catholic will feel so guilty that he will wish to atone at any price.

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II **
The pope apologies to the heretic Martin Luther, he apologizes to the schismatic Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury. He bows to kiss the pagan Koran. Those in other sects are told not to bother to convert to Catholicism; it’s not necessary. The Jews are told not to worry about becoming Christians, that Christ is not their Messias.

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. “There was enough reason to have them [the Saints] erased from the calendar, which was also one of our objectives. But both of us knew that it would take more time to kill all the Saints than it would to kill God.”

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II **
The New Order has done everything it can to suppress true Saints and replace them with politically-correct modern doppelgangers. St. Christopher, whom seventeen centuries of Catholics venerated was expunged from the New Order. St. Philomena, whom five popes and a Saint publicly venerated and encouraged others to venerate, was expunged. St. Barbara, one of Fourteen Auxiliary Saints from the apostolic Church was expunged.
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katherine2:
Where do those words come from? The Pope’s letter endorsing some of the principles of the renewal. St. Pius X was the first Pope to begin to embrace aspects of the liturgical movement. He did not found or start it (the monks of Maria Laach and Solesmes might get that honor, if anyone), but he was the first to start to give some of the principles of the movement papal approval. He approved Gregorian Chant (which had died out until its modern revivial) and more grequent communion and other early initiatives of the renewal.
 
by Walker:

Besides, Vactican II is a managerial blunder, not error in interpreting scripture. I have the experience to have been around before and after Vatican II, and I had more of a feeling of being a Roman Catholic before VII than after!

That needed to be said again.
After Vatican II those marginal Catholics left the Church because, as two of them told me, there was no difference between the Protestants and the Catholics. Both were ill-catechised and marginal Catholics. What percent of Catholics are ill-catechised? I venture to say well over fifty percent. Will they be lost too?
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Here’s an example of what the pre-Vatican II seminaries produced:It seems to me the seeds of discontent were sown well before Vatican II.
Sorry sir to sound uncharitable, but yes the seeds of modernism were sown well before Vatican II! Even before Vatican I, Venerable Pope Pius IX, issued his *Syllabus of Errors . *Pope Pius IX tried to stop modernism, and some modernist professors in seminaries were fired. This continued under Leo XIII, Pope Pius X,Pope Pius XI, and Pope Pius XII and even John XXIII. Modernists were gaining strength despite the efforts of these Popes. Then go a couple years forward and the modernists takeover Vatican II and rewrite the Vatican II decrees in favor of their errors. and now this is what is the result of that.
 
the liberal swell in the church started in the 50’s and continues to this day
So how could Vatican II be blamed? If the seeds of discontent manifested itself in the 1950’s, then it seems to me there was a problem before Vatican II, which points to poor catechesis within seminaries and laity in the pre-Vatican II Church.

Many want to blame Vatican II for all the troubles in the Church. A rather inconsist view in my opinion. On the contrary, it is more likely the smoke of satan entered the Church long before Vatican II, among those raised and catechized with the Tridentine Mass, and the resultant problems post Vatican II are merely an continuation of this pre-Vatican II problem.

The above example of Bishop Shannon leaving the priesthood and marrying outside the Church is just one of many examples. He couldn’t agree with Humanae Vitae. If the pre-Vatican II seminaries did a better job teaching these priests, he would have learned that the same irreformable doctrine was taught in *Casti Connubii *(1930), and that it represented the constant teaching of the Catholic Church.

As for the clergy sex abuse incidents having started to drastically increase in the 1950s and peak in the 1970s, I am referring to the dates of the abuse. The reporting of this abuse is often decades later. Tragically, we may not know until 20 years from now what the number of incidens in the 80s and 90s are. The data is found here: usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/prev3.pdf

A significant number of these bad priests and the bishops who mismanaged the problem were raised on the much beloved Baltimore Catechism and the Tridentine Mass. I have to conclude that to blame Vatican II and the Pauline Mass for this is absurd.
 
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katolik:
Sorry sir to sound uncharitable, but yes the seeds of modernism were sown well before Vatican II! Even before Vatican I, Venerable Pope Pius IX, issued his *Syllabus of Errors . *Pope Pius IX tried to stop modernism, and some modernist professors in seminaries were fired. This continued under Leo XIII, Pope Pius X,Pope Pius XI, and Pope Pius XII and even John XXIII. Modernists were gaining strength despite the efforts of these Popes. Then go a couple years forward and the modernists takeover Vatican II and rewrite the Vatican II decrees in favor of their errors. and now this is what is the result of that.
Doesn’t sound uncharitable to me. Sounds truthful, excepting the part where you opine that the modernists were able to “takeover” an Ecumenical Council, as if they could overpower the Holy Spirit that guided it or the Vicar of Christ which approved it’s texts. :rolleyes:
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Doesn’t sound uncharitable to me. Sounds truthful, excepting the part where you opine that the modernists were able to “takeover” an Ecumenical Council, as if they could overpower the Holy Spirit that guided it or the Vicar of Christ which approved it’s texts. :rolleyes:
I hardly think that the Pontiff could of read all of the Vatican II documents and analyzed them thoroughly.
Men sin. God asks many to be a priests, but do all listen. No not all are obiedient to God, even in the hierarchy.
 
From Denzigner’s *Sources of Catholic Dogma, *
Ecumenical Councils together with the Pope confirming them … which represent the universal Church … they are taught by the Holy Spirit … which reason they have never erred in matters of faith and morals. (systematic index, 13)
Isn’t this still taught in so-called “traditionalist” circles? Were not all the texts of Vatican II confirmed by the pope and promulgated as an Acta Apostolica Sedis?
 
Rara Avis:
How on earth do you attribute any truth to a statement like that!!!

I would seriously start questioning how accurate your source of information is!

Pope Pius X has put it in these few words: “Don’t pray at Holy Mass, but pray the Holy Mass.” Explaining himself further, His Holiness set forth: “The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice , dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be hear, you must follow with eye, heart and mouth all that happens at the altar.”
She and I both attribute truth to it because we were there before Vatican 2. Were you? Or are you only a starry-eyed individual who pines for the"good old days"?

Pius X said it; however, about as many people listend to him as listen to the current Pope.
 
Kevin Walker:
My formative years as a Roman Catholic are pre-Vatican II.

Before Vatican II, my church, the Gate of Heaven in South Boston MA., it was standing room only every Sunday and on all Catholic Holidays. The week after Vatican II was announced, half the church was empty, and has been going downhill ever since.
For some reason, I have a problem with that statement. Vatican 2 stretched over two papcies, and the liturgical renewal came after the close of the Council. If half the church was empty the day or week after the Council ws announced, I would wonder why, as most catholics had no idea what really was even going to be discussed.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Exporter,
Do you know what percentage of priests involved in sex abuse were raised and catechized on the pre-Vatican II Church? The reports show a drastic increase of sex abuse incidents involving the clergy beginning in the 1950s, continuing to rise until it’s peak in the 1970s, then steadily declining. I don’t see how this increase or subsequent decrease is in any way correlated to the Ecumenical council of 1965-1968. Seems rather uncorrelated to me.

Fr. Hans Kung was raised on the Tridentine liturgy, and yet he’s among the most dissident priests we have. So was Fr. Charles Curran. After *Humanae Vitae *was promulgated in 1968, the significant number of defections from the clergy, breaking their priestly oath, some even marrying against canon law and leaving the Church were ALL raised on the pre-Vatican II Church. Seems to me the pre-Vatican II seminaries dropped the ball in producing such disloyal priests during this era.
Oh, but of course it was Vatican 2; it infected these poor priests and turned then all upside down on their heads! NOT!

Your point is well made, but I seriously doubt the doubters will care.
 
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CrusaderNY:
The translation from the Latin is incorrect,to this day the Vatican I think just recently once again re-translated the Mass and the Bishops STILL dont agree, it is a travesty, the council is one thing, to change the Mass was a disaster and the church has been paying the price for almost 5 decades and counting…Pope Pius XIII , God please send him to us now!!!
You need to get your facts straight.

To say that it is incorrect is to make a statement that is a half-truth. Furthermore, the Vatican doen’t make the traslation, the ICEL committee does. It did not retranslate the Mass (either the Vatican, shich doesn’t do that or the ICEL, which does), but the ICEL has been working on translating it and resolving a number of issues.

Guess what? The translation we are using was approved by the Vatican. Is it perfect? no, and at least in part because while English is generally spoken in a number of countries, word useage and word meaning are not entirely identical. All of which has little or nothing to do with changing the Mass to Latin. Until Latin became a dead language, it, too would change over time and location.
 
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CrusaderNY:
In the 1960s, a French Catholic nurse, Marie Carré attended an auto-crash victim who was brought into her hospital. The man lingered there near death for a few hours and then died. The book was originally published in May 1972 in French under the title ES-1025, ES standing for Élève Seminariste, or Seminary Student. In 1973 it was published in English as AA-1025, AA standing for Anti-Apostle.

It is a succinct (125 pages or so) account of an atheistic Communist mole, who in 1940 was purposely sent by his superiors to inflitrate the Catholic priesthood, along with 1024 others at that time, charged with the mission to subvert and destroy the Church from within by helping effect its auto-destruction, a odd term specifically used by Paul VI years later in his December 7, 1968, Address to the Lombard Seminary at Rome. The Anti-Apostle and his 1024 colleagues were triumphantly successful, as far as the New Order Church goes.

The Anti-Apostle makes clear the basis of his plan to effect the auto-destruction of the Church.

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. "You must drive into the head of men, and particularly the head of Churchmen, to search for, at any price, a universal religion into which all churches would be melded together. So that this idea could take form and life, we must inculcate in pious people, especially Roman Catholics, a feeling of guilt concerning the unique truth in which they pretend to live… [This Universal Church] could not be otherwise but simple. So that all men could enter it, it could retain a vague idea of a God, more or less Creator, according to the times.

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II ** Catholics are now told they cannot say that their Church is the one true Church, but that the Church of Christ only “subsists in” the Catholic Church (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, November 21, 1964, paragraph 8)

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. "We should succeed in the end … by numerous and subtle means. I look at the Catholic Church as if it were a sphere. To destroy it, you must attack it in numerous small points until it loses all resemblance to what it was before.

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II **
The vast number of individual changes making up the whole of the New Order Church is staggering: vulgar tongues instead of sacred Latin used at services, new “eucharistic prayers,” a new form of non-apostolic “consecration,” communion in the hand, altar servettes, elimination of crucifixes, elimination of tabernacles, elimination of statues, “general confession” replacing sacramental confession, elimination of kneelers, introduction of vulgar music at services, “white” funerals, elimination of any concept of sin/Hell/Purgatory, eulogies at Catholic funerals for thrice-divorced men and homosexual panderers, and on and on the list goes.

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. "To stress that Catholics are responsible for the division among Christians, because, by their refusal to compromise, they caused schisms and heresies. To come to a point that every Catholic will feel so guilty that he will wish to atone at any price.

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II **
The pope apologies to the heretic Martin Luther, he apologizes to the schismatic Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury. He bows to kiss the pagan Koran. Those in other sects are told not to bother to convert to Catholicism; it’s not necessary. The Jews are told not to worry about becoming Christians, that Christ is not their Messias.

THE MODERNIST PLAN OF 1940. “There was enough reason to have them [the Saints] erased from the calendar, which was also one of our objectives. But both of us knew that it would take more time to kill all the Saints than it would to kill God.”

**MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BY VATICAN II **
The New Order has done everything it can to suppress true Saints and replace them with politically-correct modern doppelgangers. St. Christopher, whom seventeen centuries of Catholics venerated was expunged from the New Order. St. Philomena, whom five popes and a Saint publicly venerated and encouraged others to venerate, was expunged. St. Barbara, one of Fourteen Auxiliary Saints from the apostolic Church was expunged.
Can you say conspiratorialist? I suppose the Bermuda Traingle had something to do with it, too. Or was it the working of the Army secret base in Nevada…
 
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katolik:
Sorry sir to sound uncharitable, but yes the seeds of modernism were sown well before Vatican II! Even before Vatican I, Venerable Pope Pius IX, issued his *Syllabus of Errors . *Pope Pius IX tried to stop modernism, and some modernist professors in seminaries were fired. This continued under Leo XIII, Pope Pius X,Pope Pius XI, and Pope Pius XII and even John XXIII. Modernists were gaining strength despite the efforts of these Popes. Then go a couple years forward and the modernists takeover Vatican II and rewrite the Vatican II decrees in favor of their errors. and now this is what is the result of that.
And the earth is flat…
 
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katolik:
I hardly think that the Pontiff could of read all of the Vatican II documents and analyzed them thoroughly.
Men sin. God asks many to be a priests, but do all listen. No not all are obiedient to God, even in the hierarchy.
Oh, does the Holy Spirit work only through the Pope?

Perhaps you would like to go to the documents, and point out the errors they contain?

Have you even read them?
 
katolik,

Here’s a bit of traditional Catholic catechesis for you …

Venerable John Henry Cardinal Newman:
I say with Cardinal Bellarmine whether the Pope be infallible or not in any pronouncement, anyhow he is to be obeyed. No good can come from disobedience. His facts and his warnings may be all wrong; his deliberations may have been biassed. He may have been misled. Imperiousness and craft, tyranny and cruelty, may be patent in the conduct of his advisers and instruments. But when he speaks formally and authoritatively he speaks as our Lord would have him speak, and all those imperfections and sins of individuals are overruled for that result which our Lord intends (just as the action of the wicked and of enemies to the Church are overruled) and **therefore the Pope’s word stands, and a blessing goes with obedience to it, and no blessing with disobedience. **
[John Henry Newman, “'The Oratory, Novr. 10, 1867”, The Genius of Newman (1914), by Wilfrid Ward, Vol II, Ch. 26, http://www.newmanreader.org/biography/ward/volume2/chapter26.html”]http://www.newmanreader.org/biography/ward/volume2/chapter26.html
St. Catherine of Sienna,
He left you this sweet key of obedience; for as you know He left His vicar, the Christ, on earth, whom you are all obliged to obey until death, and whoever is outside His obedience is in a state of damnation" (Dialogue, Treatise on Obedience)
"He is insane who rises or acts contrary to this Vicar who holds the keys of the blood of Christ crucified. Even if he was a demon incarnate, I should not raise my head against him, but always grovel and ask for the blood out of mercy. And don’t pay attention to what the demon proposes to you and you propose under the color of virtue, that is to say to want to do justice against evil pastors regarding their fault. Don’t trust the demon: don’t try to do justice about what does not concern you. God wants neither you nor anyone else to set themselves up as a righter of the wrongs of His ministers. He reserves judgment to Himself, and He reserves it to His Vicar; and if the Vicar does not do justice, we should wait for the punishment and correction on the part of the sovereign judge, God Eternal." (Letters, Vol. I. Letter No. 28)
 
I want my Latin Mass. Vatican II was a real big managerial mistake on behalf of the Roman Catholic hierarchy in the Vatican.
Kevin I sent you and IM on where to get your Latin Mass fix in Boston. Come join us this Sunday. It’s a High Mass.
Kathy
 
I was born post-Vatican II.

I own two volumes of the Council documents.

There’s SO MUCH MORE to the Council than Liturgy. And I agree with the need for liturgical reform. And for the Church to address the needs of modern Catholics. And the need for the faithful to love Scripture and Divine Revelation more. And the need for a new Code of Canon Law. And a need for more Catholic education.

Thanks to Vatican II I can participate at the Mass (not just the servers), I can understand Sacred Scripture (thanks to DAS [pre-Conciliar] and DV [Conciliar]). Thanks to Vatican II I can pray the Liturgy of the Hours despite my busy schedule as a working layman. Because of Vatican II I can serve at a 1970/2000 Mass with Latin and Gregorian Chant. (Yep. BECAUSE of Vatican II, not DESPITE it. I have Sacrosanctum Concilium on my side).

Vatican II was called by a validly elected pope, attended by bishops from all over the world and ratified by the pope as an ecumenical council, therefore protected as infallible (per faith and morals) by the Holy Spirit. Because the Church says so, it’s good enough for me.
 
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