#3 – Ignorance of Scripture Verses

[Damascus]

Hi thanks for the verse. I told you I dont memorize Scripture As far as Mary–that didnt even enter my thoughts. Although I do not believe in Mary’s sinlessness. But that is another thread that honestly Im not interested in talking about.

Dont worry! I dont want to either.

No problem finding it. I was a protestant bible memorizer not that long ago.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The Catholic Mass centers on Eucharistic Liturgy. The Blessed Sacrament is the reason why practicing Catholic go to Church. They go to received the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We don’t go there to be amazed or awe at the amazing sermons. We are not there to enjoy the music. We are there for Jesus Christ.

Many ex-Catholics and Catholics who threaten to leave the Church are going to miss receiving the Lord. Do they not know that when they leave the Church, they will never received Jesus Christ again unless they "COME HOME TO ROME? ((or Orthodox because they believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist).

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Dont worry! I dont want to either.

No problem finding it. I was a protestant bible memorizer not that long ago.

Thats good !! When I need to know Scripture Ill ask you:thumbsup:

 

[Damascus]

Thats good !! When I need to know Scripture Ill ask you:thumbsup:

Thanks I think

 

[Verita]

Hi, well I have to disagree on some parts of your statement. People can behave in a pleasing manner and be considered good people by us humans, but what is more important is how God sees us. If you have not accepted Christ into your life and not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in you God does see us as filthy rags(I cant find Scripture)
I think many people think well Im a good person so I will go to heaven. God is love. Well, that is not what God teaches. Because of original sin we are all condemned to eternal damnation. But because of God’s love and mercy and grace He made a way for us to be adopted into His family and we know that to be Jesus Christ.
The point is that none of us are really any good in the eyes of God. When He looks at people who believe He sees Jesus in us who is our mediator(PTL!!!)
We have to be careful that we do not buy into all the self-love movement that the world dishes out. If we know how intrinsically horrible we are we will seek out Jesus and repent and ask for forgiveness. Well that was heavy–sorry about that.

No offense intended but I cannot say how much I disagree with your statements here. God does not see us as filthy rags! We are not “intrinsically” ( belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing ) horrible or evil. Men were created intrinsically good. We have been corrupted by the fall, but that does not take away the essential goodness of humanity. God looks at us and sees us as we are, a good creation which has been warped. And he longs to return us to our original state. That is what salvation is. It isn’t Jesus covering up our sins so that we can sneak into heaven on a technicality. It is Jesus removing our sins so that we can become the pure creations we once were.

 

[mark_a]

Pope John Paul II was extremely concerned at the Catholic losses to Pentecostalism & Fundamentalism, especially in Latin America. Massive percentages of Catholics are poached by these groups. Thank you Lord, for books like ‘Catholicism and Fundamentalism’ but I only ever seen 1 copy of it in England in 4 ½ years: mine!

So, what ought the priests do? From the pulpit maybe give about 12–20 solidly Catholic verses to give basic answers to the fundamental drivel. But they never even preach any verses whatsoever. It would be **so **easy, but they let the opportunity slip.

And off the Catholics go to the Baptist churches! Why, why why?

I have an great 84 page booklet for Catholics defending us from the New Age movement by the:
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CULTURE
PONTIFICIAL COUNCIL FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE
Jesus Christ the bearer of the Water of Life
A Christian Reflection on the ‘New Age’

Have the Church produced a similar booklet against the Fundamentalist threat? Are they really only a few authors at Ignatius Press on the case whilst millions are being lost?

But again I only think the Catholic parishes need to teach most of their members a couple of dozen verses and they’d be inoculated. But they won’t.

I have decided my break my questions up into a number of posts because I’m looking for real answers and don’t want to be accused of making a ‘buckshot’ attack.

One of our local priests says it is better for a bad Catholic to become a good Protestant.

I can agree, except that being a good Protestant often means attacking the Catholic Church.

 

[jim1130]

"ALLFORHIM:

Hi, well I have to disagree on some parts of your statement. People can behave in a pleasing manner and be considered good people by us humans, but what is more important is how God sees us. If you have not accepted Christ into your life and not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in you God does see us as filthy rags(I cant find Scripture)
I think many people think well Im a good person so I will go to heaven. God is love. Well, that is not what God teaches. Because of original sin we are all condemned to eternal damnation. But because of God’s love and mercy and grace He made a way for us to be adopted into His family and we know that to be Jesus Christ.
The point is that none of us are really any good in the eyes of God. When He looks at people who believe He sees Jesus in us who is our mediator(PTL!!!)
We have to be careful that we do not buy into all the self-love movement that the world dishes out. If we know how intrinsically horrible we are we will seek out Jesus and repent and ask for forgiveness. Well that was heavy–sorry about that.

No offense intended but I cannot say how much I disagree with your statements here. God does not see us as filthy rags! We are not “intrinsically” ( belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing ) horrible or evil. Men were created intrinsically good. We have been corrupted by the fall, but that does not take away the essential goodness of humanity. God looks at us and sees us as we are, a good creation which has been warped. And he longs to return us to our original state. That is what salvation is. It isn’t Jesus covering up our sins so that we can sneak into heaven on a technicality. It is Jesus removing our sins so that we can become the pure creations we once were.

As far as what I interpret, ALLFORHIM is, basically, endorsing the doctrine of Calvinism, that we are intrinsically evil and rebellious; that “God does see us as filthy rags” who are uncooperative and when we are cooperative we do so reluctantly. In this view, baptism is symbolic because it “cloaks us with righteousness” rather than cleanses us completely from sin. I’ve heard quotes that Luther references our cleansing like snow covering a dung hill (but I have also heard that he never said it so take that for what it is worth).

 

[Damascus]

As far as what I interpret, ALLFORHIM is, basically, endorsing the doctrine of Calvinism, that we are intrinsically evil and rebellious; that “God does see us as filthy rags” who are uncooperative and when we are cooperative we do so reluctantly. In this view, baptism is symbolic because it “cloaks us with righteousness” rather than cleanses us completely from sin. I’ve heard quotes that Luther references our cleansing like snow covering a dung hill (but I have also heard that he never said it so take that for what it is worth).

I too, mentioned that in a prior post-- but it was ignored!

I spoke of the Calvin theology and I was hoping someone else noted that too.

At least I am not alone…

 

[jim1130]

I too, mentioned that in a prior post-- but it was ignored!

I spoke of the Calvin theology and I was hoping someone else noted that too.

At least I am not alone…

Sorry that I missed your post. I probably skimmed more than absorbed, but glad we agree on the presentation/interpretation of ALLFORHIM’s theology.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi guys,

I dont really know much about the Calvin theology. I was not raised learning about Calvinism nor do I study it now. I simply the bible. So, I guess if I have some of the same beliefs as Calvin it is because it is biblical. Sorry Damascus if I ignored that part I didnt answer because I dont know about Calvinism. I dont know much about Luther either.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Hi guys,

I dont really know much about the Calvin theology. I was not raised learning about Calvinism nor do I study it now. I simply the bible. So, I guess if I have some of the same beliefs as Calvin it is because it is biblical. Sorry Damascus if I ignored that part I didnt answer because I dont know about Calvinism. I dont know much about Luther either.

Out of curiousity, which study aids do you use when studying the Bible?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

No offense intended but I cannot say how much I disagree with your statements here. God does not see us as filthy rags! We are not “intrinsically” ( belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing ) horrible or evil. Men were created intrinsically good. We have been corrupted by the fall, but that does not take away the essential goodness of humanity. God looks at us and sees us as we are, a good creation which has been warped. And he longs to return us to our original state. That is what salvation is. It isn’t Jesus covering up our sins so that we can sneak into heaven on a technicality. It is Jesus removing our sins so that we can become the pure creations we once were.

Hi,
Damascus asked about the evil comments and I gaveher/him a list of bible verses that describe us as being evil. I did not make this stuff up it is in there. When I looked in the back of my bible, there were so many Scriptures on evil I couldnt possibly list them all. If you back a few posts you can see the few I gave Damascus to look at.

 

[Damascus]

Hi guys,

I dont really know much about the Calvin theology. I was not raised learning about Calvinism nor do I study it now. I simply the bible. So, I guess if I have some of the same beliefs as Calvin it is because it is biblical. Sorry Damascus if I ignored that part I didnt answer because I dont know about Calvinism. I dont know much about Luther either.

Hi all for Him!

First off, You must realize I am aware of the Bible verses about evil?

Thanks!

Secondly- I am just curious here so bear with me, you dont know about Luther?
I am having a hard time with that one.
Certainly you have his Bible.
Bear with me as I mull this over…

I never said there is no evil or that humans can not engage in evil or do evil.

Just want to make that clear.

I said, and No human was created evil. Having O.S. does not make one “evil” it makes one flawed and its a rather large topic.

I think somehow we are not getting our points across very well.

At least we cleared up “works”…

Now I have some homework for you…

In those evil verses, can you support the created evil position?

 

[dawgfan]

Wow - dalcent’s long gone but his thread lives on.

Maybe somewhere he’s blushing at all this “ignorance of scripture” going on

 

[Verita]

Hi,
Damascus asked about the evil comments and I gaveher/him a list of bible verses that describe us as being evil. I did not make this stuff up it is in there. When I looked in the back of my bible, there were so many Scriptures on evil I couldnt possibly list them all. If you back a few posts you can see the few I gave Damascus to look at.

Yes I saw your references and I looked them all up. Perhaps as Damascus has said there is a misunderstanding. You seem to be supporting the idea that Men are “intrinsically” (belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing ) evil, in other words that human nature is evil. That I cannot agree with and the verses you have used don’t either.

Mark 7:20-23:

20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

For something to be made “unclean” it first must have been clean to begin with. Therefore this verse actually demonstrates my point. That man is intrinsically good, and has merely been corrupted. We are good or clean creations that have made ourselves evil or unclean by what we say and do that goes against God.

Luke 6:45:
45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

Again this demonstrates that we are not evil by nature but we can make our thoughts and actions and desires evil.

Matthew 12:33-37:

33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Similar to the passage in Mark. Notice though that Jesus says we must give an account of our words. If we are “intrinsically horrible” that means we are horrible by nature and all of our words would be horrible too. It would be unfair of God to judge Man if man is naturally horrible by his words and actions. No, God can judge us by our words and actions because our natures are intrinsically good and we can (with His grace) overcome the corruption of our natures.

 

[Verita]

I’m not really sure what the passage in John has to do with it except perhaps this part:

John 3

19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

But this just shows again that it is Man’s deed that are evil, not his nature.

I understand you to be saying that man’s nature is evil. If I am wrong, please correct me.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Out of curiousity, which study aids do you use when studying the Bible?

I use several different sources. Right now I am doing a study on the book of Daniel by Beth Moore. I have a Believer’s bible commentary. I use the NIV and NASB versions of the bible. The other studies I dont remember but they are through workbooks or books. All different sources I suppose. I always study the bible through a bible study offered at my church.

 

[Verita]

Hi guys,

So, I guess if I have some of the same beliefs as Calvin it is because it is biblical.

With all due respect, Arianism was biblical. In fact, I believe someone posted a quote from St Jerome recently that made the point that ALL heresies are biblical. You can defend alot of different beliefs from the Bible. And when people started claiming that Jesus wasn’t God or that the God of the Old Testament was evil and the God of the New Testament was good, it was the Church who was able to stand firmly by the truth.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I said, and No human was created evil. Having O.S. does not make one “evil” it makes one flawed and its a rather large topic.

Hey,
As Catholics, we are taught that man is made in the image and likeness of God. Is that biblical? If so, where is it at?
I’m somewhat “unskilled” at looking up specific bible verses.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Secondly- I am just curious here so bear with me, you dont know about Luther?
I am having a hard time with that one.
Certainly you have his Bible.

The only thing I know about Luther is he was a catholic priest and he objected to the some CC doctrines. My bible is the same as yours except for the apocrypha.

I think somehow we are not getting our points across very well.

I agree Im sorry

Now I have some homework for you…

In those evil verses, can you support the created evil position?/

QUOTE]

Let me back up here and start from begining. Adam and Eve were created pure. Then the Fall came and as you know it was also the fall of mankind. As a consequence, everyone born after them was born(or you can say created if you want) with a sinful nature.
When we are talking about intrinsically good or evil we are talking spiritual things not the Natural man/fleshly things. We are talking about the state of our soul being evil. In the end it is our soul that lives eternally not our fleshly bodies. So all of the evil deeds we do come straight from our soul. God is looking at out hearts. In Jeremiah 17:9 it says—The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? God is the only one who can understand our hearts. Even we can deceive ourselves.
Romans 3 :9-12
3:9
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
3:10
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
3:11
there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
**3:12
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” ** To me that verse says it all.
also Colossians 1: 21-23
1:21
Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
1:22
But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation–
1:23
if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Ephesians2 : 1-3
2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

Notice in the last couple of Scriptures God tells us how to not be evil or of a sinful nature. The only way out of that is through faith and belief in Jesus Christ.

I hope I made myself clear. Although I think the Scriptures are quite clear.

I realize, as a human, no one wants to think they are evil but that is because we are thinking in human ways not God’s ways.
Isaiah 55: 8-9
55:8
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.
55:9
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Even if we have a hard time thinking this way we have to remember that we have a finite reality and want to think that we are all good people. That is certainly what the world is telling us.
The truth is that is not what God says in His Word and we can either accept it or deny it.