40% of babies born to unmarried women !!!

[David_Thorne]

You are making assumptions not based on facts. JaneGrey never said she was experiencing any discomfort from the fact of her birth.

I never suggested that she said that. She stated: “It makes me feel very uncomfortable and I can never accept it.”

Please stop using that word. What is illegitimate is the shameful disparaging attitude towards children born to unmarried women. Why would they have a harder time than children born to a single parent whose spouse died/ran off?

The word is describes the situation in an exact way. Your use of the word “illegitimate” in an incorrect way is rather strange. Why do you use it to describe attitudes? It is not disparaging, it is true. That’s it. There is no way around it.

There is more evidence than could be read in a person’s lifetime about the negative outcomes relating to being illegitimate and/or raised by a single parent. Pretending there aren’t negative outcomes is the worst thing that could be done.

By hiding everything under the carpet and pretending? So it would seem the sin is in being found out/being in the open.

Could you clarify this?

Jane Grey was not blaming all men. She is absolutely correct that some men have a Madonna v whore complex. Its not about all people sinning. Sadly, some women buy into this.

I didn’t suggest she was. Why do you bring up “Madonna v whore complex”? Do you think that might be offensive to some? What do you mean by women buying into it?

I don’t what courts you are referring to with what system of justice but I do not subscribe to that view. So men who abscond leaving women literally holding the baby are justified? Its all the fault of women?

I didn’t say that. There are men who won’t marry because the court system decides against the man much more often than the woman; they are afraid of the consequences of that. If enough men are that way, women will have to follow along with it. Injustice only bred more injustice.

You seem quite bitter about this discussion; perhaps it is best if we just simply overlook eachother’s posts?

 

[David_Thorne]

This seems inconsistent. You’re approving of a post which links to the definition of legitimacy I am espousing. Why?

 

[Helen31]

Legitimacy or illigiticamy is inconsequential when the only inheritance you really want for your child, is the kingdom of heaven. If you’re refering to a financial inheritance or something of that nature, I think that’s kinda fostering greed.

 

[David_Thorne]

Yes and yes. Also, attitudes like Catholics insisting on calling children born to unwed mothers, illegitimate, reflect very badly on the Church.

See my above post. Do you think Catholics should censor themselves or ignore reality?

 

[David_Thorne]

Legitimacy or illigiticamy is inconsequential when the only inheritance you really want for your child, is the kingdom of heaven. If you’re refering to a financial inheritance or something of that nature, I think that’s kinda fostering greed.

Why do you think people want to censor the word?

 

[Helen31]

Why do you think people want to censor the word?

For the most part, in the sense of wether a child was born into a sarcamental marriage or outside of marriage, it’s obsolete. Also it has a negative connotation to it. When have you ever heard someone talk about how someone’s child is legitimate? Probabally never. You hear more often that someone’s child is illegitimate. In the other sense of legitimacy, until a child reaches the age of 18, they are legitimately a child.

 

[severus68]

The word is describes the situation in an exact way. Your use of the word “illegitimate” in an incorrect way is rather strange. Why do you use it to describe attitudes? It is not disparaging, it is true. That’s it. There is no way around it.

There is more evidence than could be read in a person’s lifetime about the negative outcomes relating to being illegitimate and/or raised by a single parent. Pretending there aren’t negative outcomes is the worst thing that could be done.

Could you clarify this?

I didn’t suggest she was. Why do you bring up “Madonna v whore complex”? Do you think that might be offensive to some? What do you mean by women buying into it?

I didn’t say that. There are men who won’t marry because the court system decides against the man much more often than the woman; they are afraid of the consequences of that. If enough men are that way, women will have to follow along with it. Injustice only bred more injustice.

You seem quite bitter about this discussion; perhaps it is best if we just simply overlook eachother’s posts?

Actually, I am rather sad that non-Catholics, Catholics to be and new Catholics, are given the wrong impression of the Church and my God. You are free to ignore my posts but while I would to yours, I can’t if you keep on with this.
BTW Madonna/whore is the usual term used, even on CAF.

 

[David_Thorne]

Actually, I am rather sad that non-Catholics, Catholics to be and new Catholics, are given the wrong impression of the Church and my God. You are free to ignore my posts but while I would to yours, I can’t if you keep on with this.
BTW Madonna/whore is the usual term used, even on CAF.

The term “illegitimate” is not a Catholic term, it is simply the dictionary definition used to describe people who are born to unmarried parents. That’s it. If there’s a wrong impression to be received, it is one where people see no negative outcome to their actions. Why would someone join the Church to receive the same treatment they get in society? That is, the tacit approval of sin.

I was wondering why she brought up “Madonna v whore complex”. Not whether the term was used in that way. My question is what the context was.

 

[David_Thorne]

For the most part, in the sense of wether a child was born into a sarcamental marriage or outside of marriage, it’s obsolete. Also it has a negative connotation to it. When have you ever heard someone talk about how someone’s child is legitimate? Probabally never. You hear more often that someone’s child is illegitimate. In the other sense of legitimacy, until a child reaches the age of 18, they are legitimately a child.

So do a lot of things have negative connotations (there’s a reason for that, too), but attempts to censor them are not as prevalent. Illegitimacy is not a positive thing; no one can deny that. But I can’t help but feel more problems will arise by pretending there is no problem. It’s like saying that a house burning down is not; censoring the word “fire” will cause more people to be genuinely hurt.

 

[David_Thorne]

May I ask each of JaneGrey, Helen31, LightBound, and severus68, as to whether they have any experience with the phenomenon with illegitimacy?

 

[4Squarebaby]

Why do you think people want to censor the word?

They fear that shame would encourage more abortions rather then force the mother into temporary exile before adoptions perhaps. On the child’s side they fear he would be labelled.The birth certificate of my wife’s son is officially stamped 'illegitimate" by the state. Perhaps it would have had some standing if his father had married and had a “legal” family. Everybody close to the situation knew he is “illegitimate” but it never comes up. The general public would just assume that my wife was just separated and retained her father’s name.

For what its worth after 1970 I can only identify three women in my extended family (US, Philippines, Okinawa and Europe) who had their first child more then nine months after the wedding. Two are married to preachers. The ones closer to 1970 were more likely to go the hide and let the married sister raise the child route while the more recent ones have been more likely to live together without license as public shame has been breaking down.

 

[Helen31]

The term “illegitimate” is not a Catholic term, it is simply the dictionary definition used to describe people who are born to unmarried parents. That’s it. If there’s a wrong impression to be received, it is one where people see no negative outcome to their actions. Why would someone join the Church to receive the same treatment they get in society? That is, the tacit approval of sin.

I was wondering why she brought up “Madonna v whore complex”. Not whether the term was used in that way. My question is what the context was.

Well David, I found it’s very common among “Cradle Catholic” men from generation X draw a hard line between virgin women and non-virgin. When you’re a single mother, the cat’s out of the bag so speak. So… women are either “Virgin Madonna” or a “Whore”. I think that’s where it comes from. Now David why can’t a child, be a child? Why does illegitimacy have to be an issue? If it stems from that fact that illegitimate children have a lesser future, why can’t they be placed in the same bucket with the disadvantaged children?

 

[Helen31]

I’m not a big proponent of change within the Roman Catholic church, but if there’s a need for change, the only changes I see needed are verbiage and diction.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

“Illegitimate” refers to the fact that a child is born to unmarried parents. Your link says just that. I know some people will say the best definition is the one that applies to no one, but that just tries to avoid the consequences of their actions. And not all babies are legitimate - that just cannot be so, unfortunately.

The attempt to redefine the structures of society is mainly centered around making people feel better that they aren’t a part of them; if they are not in a family, redefine the family; if they can’t get married, redefine marriage; etc. The selfishness that led to having a child out of wedlock is the same selfishness that wants to redefine “wedlock” or abolish the term. Instead of pretending something doesn’t apply to us, why not work to have it not apply in the first place?

It takes work, but it’s worth it.

Excuse me? Why is no one arguing against that? “Redefining the family” so that people born “outside” of one don’t feel left out.

I know this poster has been banned, but if it is who I think it is she’ll be back, so I’ll make this clear: I don’t need to “redefine” family to be a part of one. I have a mom, brother, SIL, nieces, and before she died a grandmother. I also have a friend that might as well be my mom’s child, a fiance, and wonderful soon to be in laws. And many “illegitimate” children have the same.

I think a few other people on this site should take note of that too.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Rude? Absolutely not.

Patronizing? Probably a little.

But there is no other way to be able to show someone who can’t understand a more complex analogy, than to proffer a very simple, basic, elementary one.

Very rude. You’ve accused her of being a person who doesn’t think and can’t understand your very basic arguments.

Nevermind that she blew a huge hole in your analogy that you couldn’t refute and instead just took to insulting her.

 

[Helen31]

So do a lot of things have negative connotations (there’s a reason for that, too), but attempts to censor them are not as prevalent. Illegitimacy is not a positive thing; no one can deny that. But I can’t help but feel more problems will arise by pretending there is no problem. It’s like saying that a house burning down is not; censoring the word “fire” will cause more people to be genuinely hurt.

Thankyou BlueEyedLady!!
And to the other “David Thornes” out there, I hope you understand that your harsh sentiments twords babies that God planned (not us) still remain a contributing factor to the abortion crisis here in America. Bravo David Thorne:thumbsup: I hope you’re proud of yourself. As a wise person once said “If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.”

 

[PRmerger]

We as a society just need to be reminded of the basics, and I find myself telling my son this every time he asks me for a baby brother or sister. “First comes Love, then comes Marriage, then comes baby in the baby carriage.” 40% of unmarried women either forgot that, or got it backwards.

'zactly.

Do it the way God has said: easier.
Do it the way we want to: harder.

That’s what I tell my children.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes and yes. Also, attitudes like Catholics insisting on calling children born to unwed mothers, illegitimate, reflect very badly on the Church.

Just to be clear: the Church does not use that word, as it applies to this discussion.

That Catholics may, well, is a different animal.

 

[LightBound]

I wish that people would get this worked up over the percentage of women that have been victims of sexual assault or abuse.

 

[4Squarebaby]

I wish that people would get this worked up over the percentage of women that have been victims of sexual assault or abuse.

We do more we throw the criminal into jail because of their crime. We take some of the father’s money, in some jurisdictions, in the case of single mothers