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Louie1983
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As does the Catholic Church.
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Tomdstone
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I am only saying that the reasoning employed here claiming that there are 43000 different Christian denominations is unconvincing to many.
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phil19034
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Tom - my question is simple. How many “denominations” do you think they are rounding?
I personally do not know the number. I agree that the way they estimate the 43,000 is not scientific and has flaws.
But I do believe that each so called “non-denominational” church is its own denomination because I believe that denominations are defined by having their own hierarchy and human authority.
Theology or discipline alone doesn’t make a denomination. The difference between all of the sects of Christianity always come down ultimately to authority.
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Tomdstone
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I already answered this several times. It is an exercise in futility to give the number of “denominations” because there is no agreed upon definition of the word. Further many Protestant groups believe that they are united under the leadership and Head of One Lord and Savior of the world, but some Catholics here refuse to recognize that and claim that they are not united but make up thousands of different denominations, without telling us what a denomination is.
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Louie1983
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We can agree to disagree there my friend.
I can see the reason for the 43,000 number or whatever the number is because they are not the same. Purely because the message Of Our Lord does’t change nor contradicts itself from one denomination to another as it unfortunately does in Protestantism. It’s good that they believe Jesus is Lord and Saviour, but as I’ve said it goes furtehr than that.
As I’ve said, I’ve heard many a testimony from Protestant converts to Catholicism who have explained that the unity in truth of The Catholic Church (and it’s continuity for that matter) was a big factor in why they left Protestantism.
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phil19034
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Who gave them the authority to open their Church? They will say The Holy Spirit. Who says their interpretation is the correct one? They will say The Holy Spirit. Hence, they are their own human authority because they are saying that they are teaching the Truth per the Holy Spirit.
That is human authority… The authority to say what is truly inspired by the Holy Spirit and in concert with the Deposit of Faith.
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Tomdstone
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That is the fallacy of your argument, because their hierarchy is One, Lord and Savior. He alone is their hierarchy and authority and the personal Savior of each member of the non denominational church. Protestants do not look to the human authority of a Pope. They look instead to the authority of Holy Scripture and to the authority of the One Lord and Savior of the world.
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Tomdstone
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The Protestant will not agree with you because they do not bow to a human authority. They bow to the authority of Scripture and to the authority of the Lord.
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phil19034
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A denomination is a Christian sect with its own human organization, hierarchy, and authority to teach the deposit of Faith.
The fact that many Protestants don’t like being called a denomination is irrelevant because Catholics don’t believe we are a denomination either.
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Louie1983
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See this where you err.
1 st: The Authority of the Pope is not human, it is divine. Handed to him by Christ (Matt. 16:18).
2nd: How can the Protestant Denominations claim to have Chirst as their head of their Church and united as you state when they teach differently on certain issues of morality. Does Christ’ message change for Denomination to Denomination? Where is the continuity in truth? is one rule acceptabel to one but not the other?
3rd: “Authority of scripture and to the One Lord and Saviour of the world” - see point 2.
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Louie1983
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phil19034
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Yes they do. When they decide that their pastor preaches the truth, they subject themselves to his authority. When they allow him to marry them, they subject themselves to his authority. When they listen to his advice on families or marriage, they subject to his authority. When they leave because they no longer like what he says, they reject his authority.
They might not call it “authority” like Catholics do, but they do subject themselves to a human authority in one way or another. It’s semantics. Call it simply hierarchy if you like.
But it’s authority and obedience. Some people, esp Protestants and dissent Catholics only respect the human authority of “me.”
BTW - you didn’t answer… Who gave them to authority to open their church?
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Tomdstone
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Your definition demands that the sect have a hierarchy. Under your definition, non-denominational Protestants are not a denomination, because they do not have a hierarchy. Instead, they will teach that Christians have no need of a human intermediary. Each person stands directly before God, receiving God’s grace not because a member of a hierarchy performed certain actions, but simply because, by trusting in God’s love revealed in the One Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the believer is reconciled and has a restored relationship with God. The non-denominational churches will reject the idea that there is a special class or hierarchy which can mediate relationship with God and have exclusive privileges regarding the dispensation of grace.
So that is another reason why the claim that there are 43000 different denominations is untenable or at least extremely dubious.
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phil19034
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They are a hierarchy… A hierarchy of 1. Or they have a group of elders or an assistant minister who reports to the pastor.
But they do have a hierarchy within their individual church building. They simply don’t have multiple locations.
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Tomdstone
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If you are talking about major differences between hierarchy, does Cardinal Kasper differ from Cardinal Burke on marriage annulments?
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Louie1983
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Possibly.
What’s your point?
The Church has had Bishops disagree with each other before yet no changes have been made to the deposit of faith.
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Tomdstone
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Similarly among non-denominational churches, there may have been some differences, but there are no changes in the belief of the authority of Holy Scripture and the authority of the One Lord and Savior of the world and Head of the Church. So the claim of 43000 different denominations is not supportable.
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Tomdstone
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Actually, no because the non-denominational church will teach that authoritarian hierarchicalism is unbiblical. It is taught that hierarchicalism is not based upon Scripture and it may stimulate latent tendencies in our fallen nature by leading to arrogance, selfish ambition, politicking, blame shifting, etc. The non-denominational church is not organized around authoritarian hierarchicalism, but is based on the authority of Scripture and the belief that Jesus is the One, Saviour of the world
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Louie1983
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Wrong again Tom.
These differences you refer are two Cardinals who are looking at different ways to bring the same message. Not changing the teaching itself.
The non denomination you refer have very different teachings on different issues. Again, I’ve mentioned it a number of times but you seem to ignore this because you don’t have a valid response. How can these denominations claim to be united under Christ when they teach different doctrines on different issues.
Truth my friend, truth. There is only one version of it and it only resides in the Catholic church.
I’m going to leave it there because we’re going in around in circles and you continously dodge important arguments that you simply have no response to.
May God bless you and keep you safe.
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Tomdstone
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What is the truth about limbo? Is it true that unbaptized babies go to limbo as taught in the Baltimore catechism for many years?
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