43,000 denomination source

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Tomdstone said:
What is meant by sharing the same heirarchy? Why is meant by a hierarchy?
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Stop playing the game, Tom.

You’ve been asked, at least 6 times, to give the number of actual denominations, since you’ve claimed that 43,000 is incorrect.

When someone is asked a question over and over and over and over again, and doesn’t answer, the logical deduction is…

he has no idea of the answer…

but doesn’t want to admit it…

because that would make him feel sheepish.

It would have been better to simply say, after the first time questioned: “I don’t know. And you’re right, that means I can’t know whether 43,000 is correct or not.”

In fact, when one looks at churches like this one, on practically every street corner in every neck of all of our woods, we know that the 43,000 completely underestimates the correct number of Christian denominations.

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I read through Benhur’s link regarding a Mr. Mark’s analysis of Catholicism.

We have one hierarchy and jurisdiction as others claim and the Protestants cannot understand because they do not have a working experience as such.

You have conservative, charismatic, etc Catholics…but they all can go to the same parish…along with the liberals, contemplatives and actives, and different ethnic groups. A visiting Lutheran minister told my pastor he could not get over how many different kinds of people attended Mass together as his congregation was homogenous. Our pastor replied, ’ We have as many different opinions as people!’

The rites emphasize small ‘t’ traditions…that are reflective of their culture, music, art, and the potential persecutions and dangers they face. I have attended a Maronite church a number of times…and throughout the Mass, the presider is continually calling down God’s protection on His people…The Maronite Church is Lebanese.

So small ‘t’ traditions do not disrupt or break our Catholic faith. I can attend any Mass…The Iraqi Chaldean Catholics are in communion with the Holy Father…they are Roman Catholics…but practice the Chaldean rite. The movements of liturgy are the same. They must follow the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy.

As far as Old Catholics, etc. go…these are sectarian, schismatic and illicit. They are not recognized in communion with the Holy Father and all the bishops throughout the world.

And as far as denominations go…then as others have said here…there are those congregations that follow a pastor…and when he is gone, they are gone because they are depending on his charism and faith.

My daughter’s mother in law was talking about some other people in their greater church community, and said one household left that community simply because they didn’t like the pastor’s jokes because he kept repeating the same jokes. At that point, after working hard on my project to get it done there…I piped up, 'I go to church for Christ, not for jokes – ’
 
Yes…and how do the Jews describe themselves…when there are 2 jews arguing it makes 3?..
 
PRmerger said:
Stop playing the game, Tom.

You’ve been asked, at least 6 times, to give the number of actual denominations, since you’ve claimed that 43,000 is incorrect.

When someone is asked a question over and over and over and over again, and doesn’t answer, the logical deduction is…

he has no idea of the answer…

but doesn’t want to admit it…

because that would make him feel sheepish.

It would have been better to simply say, after the first time questioned: “I don’t know. And you’re right, that means I can’t know whether 43,000 is correct or not.”

In fact, when one looks at churches like this one, on practically every street corner in every neck of all of our woods, we know that the 43,000 completely underestimates the correct number of Christian denominations.

https://bethblogs.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/20070327221751_284168228_dd1f2b521c_o.jpg
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Not true. I have shown that 43000 is incorrect because it assumes that three are 242 different Catholic denominations.
Your question is ill-defined. You have to let us know what sharing a hierarchy means and why a hierarchy is an important element in determining the number of “denominations.”
 
Tomdstone said:
Not that easy,
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Of course it is. It’s very, very basic arithmetic.
because I do not have a working definition of “sharing the same hierarchy” and why sharing a hierarchy is the criterion to use when defining a denomination. Others are going to mention having the same beliefs and having full communion as the determining factor.
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This is a nonsequitur, Tom. You are only asking for a def of hierarchy because you reject the 43,000 statistic.

As I already stated, you can correct the error in the methodology by doing a very, very basic mathematical application.
 
Tomdstone said:
Not that easy, because I do not have a working definition of “sharing the same hierarchy” and why sharing a hierarchy is the criterion to use when defining a denomination. Others are going to mention having the same beliefs and having full communion as the determining factor.
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At any rate, since you have NO IDEA what the actual number is, I will continue to use my statement that there are “tens of thousands of Christian denominations”.

This, of course, quite UNDER REPRESENTS the actual number, because we all know that there are independent churches of every corner in every city in every country of the world.

The actual number, esp since the Protestant paradigm is that no one gets to tell you what to believe when you read the Bible, is: as many as there are Protestant belly buttons.

And, even if there were only 100 denominations, that still proves the fact that when one embraces the Protestant paradigm that one doesn’t need an authority to tell them what to believe, how to interpret the Bible, and how to practice their faith…that ends up with chaos and confusion.

No one knows what’s the correct interpretation. There are…[fill in the blank…100, 43,000, 43,000 minus 241, tens of thousands or millions and billions] of interpretations.

Just the recipe for chaos and confusion.
 
PRmerger said:
…because that would make him feel sheepish.
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Basically, an ad hominem argument which does not address the question at hand, which is the definition of denomination. Many Protestant Churches do not think of themselves as “denominations”. In fact, there are many non-denominational Protestant Churches which adhere to typical Protestant tenets: sola scriptura, sola fide, sola gratia, solus Christus, and soli Deo gloria.
 
Tomdstone said:
Basically, an ad hominem argument which does not address the question at hand, which is the definition of denomination. Many Protestant Churches do not think of themselves as “denominations”. In fact, there are many non-denominational Protestant Churches which adhere to typical Protestant tenets: sola scriptura, sola fide, sola gratia, solus Christus, and soli Deo gloria.
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I am SOOOO thankful I belong to the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC Church and I avoid all that confusion. Seems they don’t really know what to believe or who to turn to when they have doubts. Prayers for all, God Bless, Memaw
 
Tomdstone said:
Basically, an ad hominem argument which does not address the question at hand, which is the definition of denomination. Many Protestant Churches do not think of themselves as “denominations”. In fact, there are many non-denominational Protestant Churches which adhere to typical Protestant tenets: sola scriptura, sola fide, sola gratia, solus Christus, and soli Deo gloria.
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Sure. Until you start talking about what they mean…

And then what do they believe about:

Abortion
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Baptism—in Jesus’ name only, or Trinitarian? In a river? Sprinkling? Immersion? Sacrament or ordinance? Adult or infant?
Can men and women sit together during services?
Church leadership, or no leadership
Death/Soul Sleep
Divorce and remarriage
Drinking alcohol
Health and wealth gospel
Hell
Homosexuality
Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
Is it permissible for women to teach Scripture
Music in their worship services
Once saved, always saved
Ordination
Predestination
Rapture
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
The Eucharist
Tongues
Trinity
When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
Women’s ordination

Then, you have chaos and confusion.

QED
 
Tomdstone said:
Basically, an ad hominem argument which does not address the question at hand, which is the definition of denomination. Many Protestant Churches do not think of themselves as “denominations”. In fact, there are many non-denominational Protestant Churches which adhere to typical Protestant tenets: sola scriptura, sola fide, sola gratia, solus Christus, and soli Deo gloria.
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It is not what they think they are that is important, it is what they actually do. As long as Protestants hold that each and everyone is entitled to interpret the Scriptures they way they want, you have potentially a denomination in each person. Even if they all subscribe to sola 1, 2 and 3 etc, as long as they do not have to comply with the interpretations of each other, there can be no common theology that unites them. Who can enforce it? If a religion goes by popular vote, then it means what was bad yesterday can be good today. And when you have no consistency of belief, one don’t really have a religion which varies by sentiments of the day. So what happens when a church vote today that was considered bad previously , became good today. And 10 years down the road , another vote reverses that classification. What kind of religion would that be then? Does God operate by popular vote?

As long as everyone has the right to interpret Scriptures each sees fit, it is actually anti-unity. Therefore it doesn’t resemble the gospel of Christ where he prays for unity. If you look at Philvaz’s quotation of statistics philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm the worrying issue is the trend. Ignore the numbers for a moment.

Year ------- 1800 | 1900 | 1970 – | mid-2000 | mid-2007 | 2025 projected

Denom – 500 | 1,900 | 18,800 | 33,800 — | 39,000 – | 55,000​

(sorry for the dashes, that was how I got the column to align somewhat. Couldn’t figure out the right way to get it done right.)

As long as the statistics consistently applies the criteria for defining denominations, the picture remains intact. So how could Protestants get back to unity? It is impossible if the right to interpret scriptures remain as a pillar of Protestantism. If it is an impossibility, then how can one claim that is what Christ wanted? That it is his church? Every sheep can become a shepherd? They would all be shepherds and very few sheep left to be shepherded.

The trend is bad. Accuracy of these numbers is not too important so don’t get hung up on that. The question is how are Protestants going to fix this problem since they constitute the bulk of the stats.
 
There is no such thing as 242 Catholic denominations.

there are 22 rites…Latin, Chaldean, Maronite, Ethiopian…and so on…but not 242 rites…ridiculous.

When you want to find facts regarding Catholicism, you go to Catholic sources…not those in protest of our Church…so sad…and they don’t check out their ‘facts’ either.
 
KathleenGee said:
There is no such thing as 242 Catholic denominations…
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Of course you are so right. This is why the people here who are claiming that there are 43000 denominations are so wrong. To arrive at that statistic they claim 242 Catholic denominations. Further, they do not define their terms clearly. Without a working definition of denomination which is agreed to by the parties involved, discussion of 43000 denominations is an exercise in futility.
For example, they claim that if there is a disagreement on an issue like whether or not to use music in their services, that this constitutes a separate “denomination.” Well, Catholics disagree on limbo, they disagree on whether to say the creed with the filioque (Roman Catholics ) or without the filioque (Eastern Catholics) which are theological issues much more serious than the disciplinary question of using music in Church.
 
Tomdstone said:
Basically, an ad hominem argument which does not address the question at hand, which is the definition of denomination. Many Protestant Churches do not think of themselves as “denominations”. In fact, there are many non-denominational Protestant Churches which adhere to typical Protestant tenets: sola scriptura, sola fide, sola gratia, solus Christus, and soli Deo gloria.
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I think that “non denominational” and protestant are terms that contradict each other. Since all members of so called “non denominational” are protestant.

I was brought up in an ecclesial body that called themselves “un denominational”. They considered themselves to be the worlds only
Christians.
 
Tomdstone said:
Of course you are so right. This is why the people here who are claiming that there are 43000 denominations are so wrong. To arrive at that statistic they claim 242 Catholic denominations. Further, they do not define their terms clearly. Without a working definition of denomination which is agreed to by the parties involved, discussion of 43000 denominations is an exercise in futility.
For example, they claim that if there is a disagreement on an issue like whether or not to use music in their services, that this constitutes a separate “denomination.” Well, Catholics disagree on limbo, they disagree on whether to say the creed with the filioque (Roman Catholics ) or without the filioque (Eastern Catholics) which are theological issues much more serious than the disciplinary question of using music in Church.
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Hi Tom, you are using some terms here, “Roman Catholic” & “Eastern Catholic”, I think you might want to define for your readers. Careful, you may be on to something. :bigyikes: :doh2:

Peace!!!
 
adf417 said:
Hi Tom, you are using some terms here, “Roman Catholic” & “Eastern Catholic”, I think you might want to define for your readers. Careful, you may be on to something. :bigyikes: :doh2:

Peace!!!
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In the Catholic Church, there are Churches of various traditions:
Western traditions
Latin Church

Byzantine tradition
Albanian Church • Belarusian Church
Bulgarian Church
Church of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro
Byzantine Church • Hungarian Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church • Macedonian Church
Melkite Church • Romanian Church
Russian Church • Ruthenian Church
Slovak Church • Ukrainian Church

Antiochian or West Syrian tradition
Maronite Church • Syriac Church
Syro-Malankara Church

Chaldean or East Syrian tradition
Chaldean Church • Syro-Malabar Church

Armenian tradition
Armenian Church

Alexandrian tradition
Coptic Church • Ethiopian Church
Eritrean Church

The Church of the western tradition (Latin Church or Roman Catholic Church) uses the filioque in their creed.
 
Tomdstone said:
In the Catholic Church, there are Churches of various traditions:
Western traditions
Latin Church

Byzantine tradition
Albanian Church • Belarusian Church
Bulgarian Church
Church of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro
Byzantine Church • Hungarian Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church • Macedonian Church
Melkite Church • Romanian Church
Russian Church • Ruthenian Church
Slovak Church • Ukrainian Church

Antiochian or West Syrian tradition
Maronite Church • Syriac Church
Syro-Malankara Church

Chaldean or East Syrian tradition
Chaldean Church • Syro-Malabar Church

Armenian tradition
Armenian Church

Alexandrian tradition
Coptic Church • Ethiopian Church
Eritrean Church

The Church of the western tradition (Latin Church or Roman Catholic Church) uses the filioque in their creed.
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And all of them submit to the authority of the Roman Pontiff and profess what is written here:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
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