5-year-old Kentucky boy fatally shoots 2-year-old sister

[estesbob]

I used drunkenness as an example because most drunk drivers don’t intend to kill other people but can. Perhaps its a bad example.

Nothing we do can change the past, but if we are to prevent future tragedies like this then we need to make sure that parents who have loaded guns are kept out of young children’s hands. If we don’t punish in some form then it could continue. That is unacceptable.

It will continue regardless. Accidents happen. Do you want this mother to go to jail? Do you want her child taken away from her?

 

[estesbob]

I think that it is a very good example. Someone that gets drunk and drives made a bad decision and could cause an accident resulting in death. They have to deal with the consequences of that decision, the consequence being a charge of vehicular homicide or negligent homicide.

These parents made a bad decision that caused the death of a child. They should have to deal with the consequences which in this case should be, but it appears will not be, a charge of negligent homicide.

They are dealing with the consequences. They have a dead child and another child who will have to live with this for the rest of his life. I see no value whatsoever is making this tragic situation even more tragic

 

[CatholicGeek1]

They are dealing with the consequences. They have a dead child and another child who will have to live with this for the rest of his life. I see no value whatsoever is making this tragic situation even more tragic

A drunk driver that kills his child in the car with him will have to live with that for the rest of his life as well - very few people would call for no charges to be filed against him.

To me this whole argument seems to be about the fact that a gun was involved. It is almost like a visceral reaction from some people that if a gun was involved in something, we need to just say it was an accident and move on lest someone will say it is a reason for gun control.

 

[estesbob]

A drunk driver that kills his child in the car with him will have to live with that for the rest of his life as well - very few people would call for no charges to be filed against him.

To me this whole argument seems to be about the fact that a gun was involved. It is almost like a visceral reaction from some people that if a gun was involved in something, we need to just say it was an accident and move on lest someone will say it is a reason for gun control.

We are not talking about a drunk driver. This family has been punished enough. Nothing, i mean nothing is gained by adding to their grief.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

We are not talking about a drunk driver. This family has been punished enough. Nothing, i mean nothing is gained by adding to their grief.

What is gained by adding to the grief of a drunk driver? Why is what he did worse than what these parents did? Both are cases where bad decisions were made. Both are cases where negligence resulted in death. What is the difference?

 

[7armyrugrats]

Children are killed every year from falls. Are we going to arrest parents if they don’t properly secure ladders, stairs, book shelves, cabinets and such? What about escalators? How about windows or balconies? These are everyday dangers!

Seriously though, if this was something other than a gun, a tool of some sort that is used on a regular basis, and an accident occurred resulting in death, would we very it the same way? A childhood friend of mine died from falling off a ladder–he was the fire chief at the time. Kind if ironic, he was home changing a lightbulb at the time he fell. My old neighbor’s son was killed when he tripped and landed on a screw driver. It stabbed him in the throat. He was a happy, healthy 8 year old trying to help mom out. She has never forgiven herself. Was she guilty of negligence for asking him to bring her the screw driver? Or what about a farmer whose child got a hold of pesticides or herbicides? Or a mechanic or welder or carpenter whose child lost a limb or died using their power tools/equipment? What if a kid mowing the grass ran over a sibling and killed them? Do we lock these parents up too? or does the fact that it isn’t a gun change the you feel about it?

 

[estesbob]

What is gained by adding to the grief of a drunk driver? Why is what he did worse than what these parents did? Both are cases where bad decisions were made. Both are cases where negligence resulted in death. What is the difference?

Drunk drivers knowingly drive while impaired. I am at a loss as to people want to pile on this family in their time of extreme grief. Is this a gun control thing? Are these parents pawns in a larger discussion over gun control? Are they to be punished severely so politicians can use the as an example of he evil of guns? Are the to be used like the dead at Newton to advance a political agenda??

 

[estesbob]

Children are killed every year from falls. Are we going to arrest parents if they don’t properly secure ladders, stairs, book shelves, cabinets and such? What about escalators? How about windows or balconies? These are everyday dangers!

Seriously though, if this was something other than a gun, a tool of some sort that is used on a regular basis, and an accident occurred resulting in death, would we very it the same way? A childhood friend of mine died from falling off a ladder–he was the fire chief at the time. Kind if ironic, he was home changing a lightbulb at the time he fell. My old neighbor’s son was killed when he tripped and landed on a screw driver. It stabbed him in the throat. He was a happy, healthy 8 year old trying to help mom out. She has never forgiven herself. Was she guilty of negligence for asking him to bring her the screw driver? Or what about a farmer whose child got a hold of pesticides or herbicides? Or a mechanic or welder or carpenter whose child lost a limb or died using their power tools/equipment? What if a kid mowing the grass ran over a sibling and killed them? Do we lock these parents up too? or does the fact that it isn’t a gun change the you feel about it?

I am afraid gun politics is the real issue here. Never let a tragedy go to waste.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Children are killed every year from falls. Are we going to arrest parents if they don’t properly secure ladders, stairs, book shelves, cabinets and such? What about escalators? How about windows or balconies? These are everyday dangers!

Seriously though, if this was something other than a gun, a tool of some sort that is used on a regular basis, and an accident occurred resulting in death, would we very it the same way? A childhood friend of mine died from falling off a ladder–he was the fire chief at the time. Kind if ironic, he was home changing a lightbulb at the time he fell. My old neighbor’s son was killed when he tripped and landed on a screw driver. It stabbed him in the throat. He was a happy, healthy 8 year old trying to help mom out. She has never forgiven herself. Was she guilty of negligence for asking him to bring her the screw driver? Or what about a farmer whose child got a hold of pesticides or herbicides? Or a mechanic or welder or carpenter whose child lost a limb or died using their power tools/equipment? What if a kid mowing the grass ran over a sibling and killed them? Do we lock these parents up too? or does the fact that it isn’t a gun change the you feel about it?

I would be saying the same thing if a child died for any reason if the cause was negligence. If you leave a gun unsecured where I child can access it, you are negligent.

There is a reasonable expectation that a child will be safe carrying a screw driver, there is no reasonable expectation that a child will be safe with access to a gun.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Drunk drivers knowingly drive while impaired. I am at a loss as to people want to pile on this family in their time of extreme grief. Is this a gun control thing? Are these parents pawns in a larger discussion over gun control? Are they to be punished severely so politicians can use the as an example of he evil of guns? Are the to be used like the dead at Newton to advance a political agenda??

These parents knowingly left a gun unsecured. I am still trying to see the difference.

To me the only people trying to push an agenda are the people that think there should be no repercussions for this negligence.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

I am afraid gun politics is the real issue here. Never let a tragedy go to waste.

This is not a matter of politics. This is a matter of people failing to take proper steps to ensure the safety of their children.

 

[7armyrugrats]

I would be saying the same thing if a child died for any reason if the cause was negligence. If you leave a gun unsecured where I child can access it, you are negligent.

There is a reasonable expectation that a child will be safe carrying a screw driver, there is no reasonable expectation that a child will be safe with access to a gun.

What about mowing the grass? Most parents give that chore to older kids and quite often it turns ugly. What about wondering into dad’s (or moms) work shop and encountering poisons or power tools? The amount of kids killed by cleaning supplies and over the counter medications outweighs the number killed by guns. As parents we can not possibly watch our kids 24 hours a day. We need to sleep, we have chores to do. In the amount of time it takes to go to the bathroom our kids can poison themselves. Are moms that leave a mop bucket out, probably unintentionally, when they go bathroom, guilty of neglect? Everyone knows that cleaning supplies are dangerous. I just can’t follow your logic here.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

What about mowing the grass? Most parents give that chore to older kids and quite often it turns ugly. What about wondering into dad’s (or moms) work shop and encountering poisons or power tools? The amount of kids killed by cleaning supplies and over the counter medications outweighs the number killed by guns. As parents we can not possibly watch our kids 24 hours a day. We need to sleep, we have chores to do. In the amount of time it takes to go to the bathroom our kids can poison themselves. Are moms that leave a mop bucket out, probably unintentionally, when they go bathroom, guilty of neglect? Everyone knows that cleaning supplies are dangerous. I just can’t follow your logic here.

My logic is that in all of the cases you are referring to, their is a reasonable expectation that the child will be safe. In the case where there is a two year old and a five year old left unsupervised, there is no reasonable expectation that an unsecured gun will be safe.

 

[7armyrugrats]

My logic is that in all of the cases you are referring to, their is a reasonable expectation that the child will be safe. In the case where there is a two year old and a five year old left unsupervised, there is no reasonable expectation that an unsecured gun will be safe.

No, they were in the kitchen while mom stepped outside the kitchen door to feed the dogs. It would take just as much time for the mom to go to the bathroom leaving her 5 and 2 yr olds alone with the mop bucket. 2 yr old would still be left “unsupervised” with enough time to poison herself. Poison control receives hundreds of calls each day across the country because of this scenario. As parents we should know better. It’s about time we start prosecuting moms so that we can be sure no other child is placed in such danger.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

No, they were in the kitchen while mom stepped outside the kitchen door to feed the dogs. It would take just as much time for the mom to go to the bathroom leaving her 5 and 2 yr olds alone with the mop bucket. 2 yr old would still be left “unsupervised” with enough time to poison herself. Poison control receives hundreds of calls each day across the country because of this scenario. As parents we should know better. It’s about time we start prosecuting moms so that we can be sure no other child is placed in such danger.

There is still a reasonable expectation that a child left alone for a minute with a mop bucket will be safe. There is still no reasonable expectation that a child left alone for a minute with an unsecured gun will be safe.

 

[SamH]

There is still a reasonable expectation that a child left alone for a minute with a mop bucket will be safe. .

Really? Why is that?

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Really? Why is that?

For a couple of reasons:

1. A mop bucket is not dangerous in and of itself. If used improperly it can be dangerous. A gun is dangerous in and of itself and should be treated as such.
2. If a child drinks a little mop water they will likely spit it out and not be in a great deal of danger depending on the cleaners in it. If a child pulls the trigger on a gun, they and those around them are going to be in a great deal of danger.
3. If a child falls in a mop bucket, there is a short window of time to pull them out before something bad happens. If a child is shot, something bad has happened and there is no time to prevent an injury.

That being said, I do not think it is a good idea to have a bucket of water unattended with a young child about, however, you can make a reasonable argument that you thought the child would be safe. There is no reasonable argument that you thought a child with an unsupervised gun would be safe.

Even the most extreme pro-gun people that I know, would NEVER allow their children to have access to a firearm without their supervision. They are responsible, they make SURE the weapon is unloaded. They make SURE that the weapon is secured.

If you have a firearm, you have a responsibility to make sure that it is secure. You have a responsibility to make sure that it is safe.

 

[10gr8kids]

If you have young children it might be a good idea to read this.

cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/News-Releases/2012/In-Home-Danger-CPSC-Warns-of-Children-Drowning-in-Bathtubs-Bath-Seats-and-Buckets-More-than-400-deaths-estimated-over-a-five-year-period/

 

[SamH]

For a couple of reasons:

1. A mop bucket is not dangerous in and of itself. If used improperly it can be dangerous. A gun is dangerous in and of itself and should be treated as such…

Actually to a small child a mop bucket is more dangerous than a gun.

Buckets

Many parents and caregivers may not realize the danger buckets pose. From 1996 through 1999, CPSC received reports of 58 children under age 5 who drowned in 5-gallon buckets. Even a small amount of liquid can be deadly. Of all buckets, the 5-gallon size presents the greatest hazard to young children because of its tall, straight sides. That, combined with the stability of these buckets, makes it nearly impossible for top-heavy infants and toddlers to free themselves when they fall into the bucket headfirst.

cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/News-Releases/2002/CPSC-Warns-Pools-Are-Not-the-Only-Drowning-Danger-at-Home-for-KidsData-Show-Other-Hazards-Cause-More-than-100-Residential-Child-Drowning-Deaths-Annually/

 

[pnewton]

These parents knowingly left a gun unsecured. I am still trying to see the difference.

To me the only people trying to push an agenda are the people that think there should be no repercussions for this negligence.

The difference is that driving drunk is illegal in and of itself. Owning a gun is not. You said the parents knowingly left a gun unsecured. If they knowingly left it unsecured and loaded, then you might have a similarity. However, “knowingly” is a lot harder to prove than a measurable blood alcohol level.

There are reprecussions for negligence, in this case a dead child. The only thing that can be punished is criminal negligence, a much different animal and harder to prove. Even the, incarceration is seldom the punishment for a first offense.