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JMJSHJ
Guest
So SamH are you suggesting that the parents should not be held accountable? Because you earlier in this thread said they should. Why the flip flop?
Would these parents be considered law abiding gun owners?
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Would these parents be considered law abiding gun owners?
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CatholicGeek1
Guest
Incarceration is not the only thing that would come from a conviction. Criminally negligent homicide is a felony, if convicted these parents would not be able to own any more guns, that would be a really good thing as they obviously can’t handle it.The difference is that driving drunk is illegal in and of itself. Owning a gun is not. You said the parents knowingly left a gun unsecured. If they knowingly left it unsecured and loaded, then you might have a similarity. However, “knowingly” is a lot harder to prove than a measurable blood alcohol level.
There are reprecussions for negligence, in this case a dead child. The only thing that can be punished is criminal negligence, a much different animal and harder to prove. Even the, incarceration is seldom the punishment for a first offense.
To your first point, if they left it unsecured, they left it unsecured and loaded as any gun instructor will tell you, that all guns need to be considered loaded until you PROVE that they are not.
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SamH
Guest
What flip flop?So SamH are you suggesting that the parents should not be held accountable? Because you earlier in this thread said they should. Why the flip flop?
Would these parents be considered law abiding gun owners?
Being held accountantable does mean charging them with murder as suggested by some.
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CatholicGeek1
Guest
I have not seen anyone suggest they should be charged with murder. They should be charged with criminally negligent homicide. There is a world of difference.What flip flop?
Being held accountantable does mean charging them with murder as suggested by some.
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SamH
Guest
Words have meanings - even if you don’t know them:I have not seen anyone suggest they should be charged with murder. They should be charged with criminally negligent homicide. There is a world of difference.
Although the term homicide is sometimes used synonymously with murder, homicide is broader in scope than murder. Murder is a form of criminal homicide; other forms of homicide might not constitute criminal acts. These homicides are regarded as justified or excusable. For example, individuals may, in a necessary act of Self-Defense, kill a person who threatens them with death or serious injury, or they may be commanded or authorized by law to kill a person who is a member of an enemy force or who has committed a serious crime. Typically, the circumstances surrounding a killing determine whether it is criminal. The intent of the killer usually determines whether a criminal homicide is classified as murder or Manslaughter and at what degree.
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CatholicGeek1
Guest
What makes you think I don’t know the meanings? Criminally negligent homicide is one crime, murder is another.Words have meanings - even if you don’t know them:
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SamH
Guest
Thank you for providing an example.What makes you think I don’t know the meanings? Criminally negligent homicide is one crime, murder is another.
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JMJSHJ
Guest
What would be an appropriate way to hold them accountable? Would you still consider them as law abiding gun owners?What flip flop?
Being held accountantable does mean charging them with murder as suggested by some.
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SamH
Guest
They should face a charge for neglect, most likely a felony charge. But I doubt it will happen. People don’t seem to get charged for killing their own children, and the ones that do seem to walk more often than not - even if they are convicted.What would be an appropriate way to hold them accountable? Would you still consider them as law abiding gun owners?
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7armyrugrats
Guest
As a matter of fact, yes. There is no law in KY that states how a person must store their weapons. You may lock your weapons in a case, keep them on display, have them in a closet, or a rack in your truck. If you choose to carry a handgun in public there are requirements, but not for how you store a rifle in your home. The parents did NOTHING ILLEGAL, therefore they are law abiding gun owners.What would be an appropriate way to hold them accountable? Would you still consider them as law abiding gun owners?
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estesbob
Guest
What do you think should be done to them?What would be an appropriate way to hold them accountable? Would you still consider them as law abiding gun owners?
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CatholicGeek1
Guest
Criminal negligence is illegal.As a matter of fact, yes. There is no law in KY that states how a person must store their weapons. You may lock your weapons in a case, keep them on display, have them in a closet, or a rack in your truck. If you choose to carry a handgun in public there are requirements, but not for how you store a rifle in your home. The parents did NOTHING ILLEGAL, therefore they are law abiding gun owners.
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CatholicGeek1
Guest
I think they should be charged with criminally negligent homicide. If a jury convicts, a judge should look at all of the factors and prescribe an appropriate sentence. At the very least I think a fair sentence would involve probation, community service - going and teaching others about gun safety using their own story as an example of what not to do - restriction from ever owning another firearm, mandatory parenting classes, and unannounced visits to the home for as long as children are living there to ensure that they are continuing to provide a safe environment.What do you think should be done to them?
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7armyrugrats
Guest
Well, good luck trying to convince a jury of their peers of that one. Besides, that is a very slippery slope there. If we start prosecuting parents for criminal negligence when they haven’t broken any law and only step outside for a couple minutes to feed a dog (or grab the mail, or unload the car…), not a single one of us is safe from prosecution if God forbid something happens. It is that simple. And you can argue this, but it won’t change the way things are. Just because they made a bad choice doesn’t make them criminals. All of us are guilty of doing poor decisions as parents and in life in general. Thankfully things usually turn out just fine, but unfortunately that isn’t always the case. Just because the decisions they make a bad choice about was a gun–something many people have an irrational hatred and fear of–doesn’t make it any more CRIMINAL than if it had been a rope and the child accidentally hung his sister. And yes, that happens a lot. So do kids drowning in toilets, getting run over by vehicles, any number of things. Guns kill far fewer people than any of these other things, especially children in rural KY.Criminal negligence is illegal.
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estesbob
Guest
Fair enough. its not going to happen though.I think they should be charged with criminally negligent homicide. If a jury convicts, a judge should look at all of the factors and prescribe an appropriate sentence. At the very least I think a fair sentence would involve probation, community service - going and teaching others about gun safety using their own story as an example of what not to do - restriction from ever owning another firearm, mandatory parenting classes, and unannounced visits to the home for as long as children are living there to ensure that they are continuing to provide a safe environment.
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CatholicGeek1
Guest
That is why there is a difference between negligence and criminal negligence.Well, good luck trying to convince a jury of their peers of that one. Besides, that is a very slippery slope there. If we start prosecuting parents for criminal negligence when they haven’t broken any law and only step outside for a couple minutes to feed a dog (or grab the mail, or unload the car…), not a single one of us is safe from prosecution if God forbid something happens. It is that simple. And you can argue this, but it won’t change the way things are. Just because they made a bad choice doesn’t make them criminals. All of us are guilty of doing poor decisions as parents and in life in general. Thankfully things usually turn out just fine, but unfortunately that isn’t always the case. Just because the decisions they make a bad choice about was a gun–something many people have an irrational hatred and fear of–doesn’t make it any more CRIMINAL than if it had been a rope and the child accidentally hung his sister. And yes, that happens a lot. So do kids drowning in toilets, getting run over by vehicles, any number of things. Guns kill far fewer people than any of these other things, especially children in rural KY.
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CatholicGeek1
Guest
The fact that it won’t happen doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t happen or that people shouldn’t be trying to make it happen.Fair enough. its not going to happen though.
We can’t give up a fighting for the right way of doing things just because it is not likely to bring about immediate change or get people thinking differently right away.
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SamH
Guest
Care to take a stab at explaining that?Fair enough. its not going to happen though.
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estesbob
Guest
They are not going to be chargedCare to take a stab at explaining that?
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pnewton
Guest
If they were going to be prosecuted, which they are not, this would be a point the DA would have to weigh to see if it rose to the level of* criminal* negligence. The fact that gun instructors teach this does not make it criminal.To your first point, if they left it unsecured, they left it unsecured and loaded as any gun instructor will tell you, that all guns need to be considered loaded until you PROVE that they are not.
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