50 Shades of Grey

[Rence]

I am not going to go around with you about this.

Sadism
Masochism
Bondage
“Discipline”

are all DISORDERED acts. They are perversions of sacred sexual intimacy. It is DISORDERED and sinful to do such things to another person’s body. I don’t care what label you give it. It’s perverted, not normal, sinful, disgusting, harmful, sick. There, how’s that?

A friend of mine once told me that her husband used hot melted wax one day and that it was surprisingly exciting. She said that “pain is different when you’re having sex”, that it’s “sexually pleasurable”. That’s something I can understand because you’re right, wanting pain inflicted on one’s self and wanting to inflict pain on another person is disturbing. But it’s quite another thing when the sensation isn’t perceived as painful. Pain hurts and is not pleasureable, and pain is subjective. But when one describes an act as ‘exciting’, ‘pleasurable’ or or “sexually gratifying”, that can’t be mistaken for “painful”, so I don’t find anything sadistic or masochistic about liking it. Again, different story completely when it’s not pleasureable, but in fact painful. No doubt about it.

Another friend of mine told me that he liked to be paddled when aroused, that it didn’t hurt but felt good. Again, paddling is supposed to be painful. But if it’s not, then it’s another story altogether. If he said it ‘felt good’ and that it ‘didn’t hurt’, then it wasn’t painful. Pain is subjective.

I understand that it’s difficult to relate to something that one doesn’t understand. No one likes pain…that would be disturbing. But when the person doesn’t feel like pain, and instead gives pleasure and gratification, then it’s not pain. IF it is actually pain, then that’s something different.

Having your legs waxed is painful. But for me, getting the front of my thigh waxed is most definitely not painful, but feels good (the only way I can describe it is that it feels like an itch being scratched)-- can’t say that about the other parts, like the back of my leg or my biniki area though, because those most definitely hurt But my friends don’t get what I’m saying because all of it hurts for them. They don’t get a reprieve like I do Because I’ve had so many converstations with girlfriends about how NOT painful waxing is to me, I can understand when someone else says something that’s ‘supposed to be’ painful is actually not painful.

That stuff is not my bag. I’m not the adventurous type when it comes to pain. But as long as both parties truly agree, as long as both parties are treated with respect, and there is no coercion involved, and the couple is married, I don’t have a problem with it at all.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

On the subject of the book, I’d never heard of it until everyone on CAF started going nuts over it. Then again, most if my friends are men in their late 20’s. They will not be reading Twilight fanfic.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

A friend of mine once told me that her husband used hot melted wax one day and that it was surprisingly exciting. She said that “pain is different when you’re having sex”, that it’s “sexually pleasurable”. That’s something I can understand because you’re right, wanting pain inflicted on one’s self and wanting to inflict pain on another person is disturbing. But it’s quite another thing when the sensation isn’t perceived as painful. Pain hurts and is not pleasureable, and pain is subjective. But when one describes an act as ‘exciting’, ‘pleasurable’ or or “sexually gratifying”, that can’t be mistaken for “painful”, so I don’t find anything sadistic or masochistic about liking it. Again, different story completely when it’s not pleasureable, but in fact painful. No doubt about it.

Another friend of mine told me that he liked to be paddled when aroused, that it didn’t hurt but felt good. Again, paddling is supposed to be painful. But if it’s not, then it’s another story altogether. If he said it ‘felt good’ and that it ‘didn’t hurt’, then it wasn’t painful. Pain is subjective.

I understand that it’s difficult to relate to something that one doesn’t understand. No one likes pain…that would be disturbing. But when the person doesn’t feel like pain, and instead gives pleasure and gratification, then it’s not pain. IF it is actually pain, then that’s something different.

Having your legs waxed is painful. But for me, getting the front of my thigh waxed is most definitely not painful, but feels good (the only way I can describe it is that it feels like an itch being scratched)-- can’t say that about the other parts, like the back of my leg or my biniki area though, because those most definitely hurt But my friends don’t get what I’m saying because all of it hurts for them. They don’t get a reprieve like I do Because I’ve had so many converstations with girlfriends about how NOT painful waxing is to me, I can understand when someone else says something that’s ‘supposed to be’ painful is actually not painful.

That stuff is not my bag. I’m not the adventurous type when it comes to pain. But as long as both parties truly agree, as long as both parties are treated with respect, and there is no coercion involved, and the couple is married, I don’t have a problem with it at all.

Because of the chemical rush things that would otherwise hurt can feel very good and thrilling during sex.

Side note: Most people think I’m weird but being tattooed feels like I’m getting a massage. I think its the endorphins. I relax and almost fall asleep while getting a tattoo while everyone else in the parlor is wincing through theirs.

Also, the BDSM community makes a strong distinction between pain and harm. And harm is avoided at all costs.

 

[Rence]

Um…I disagree. And the wide world of mental health professionals would disagree too. Calling someone a sociopath/psychopath (which is actually referred to as antisocial personality disorder or a narcissist (narcissistic personality disorder) based on what sexually arouses them makes no sense and is irresponsible. Both diagnosis have a long list of symptoms and a patient must exhibit many of them to qualify. An interest in BDSM is not one of the characteristics, and even if it were there would have to be many others also present to warrent that kind of severe and devastating label.

Julianne is just deeply disturbed by that kind of activity. And that’s okay. She doesn’t have to participate in that. But one can’t define what is painful for another person based on their own feelings and expectations. Pain is what the person says it is, not what another person says it is. And thankfully mental health diagnoses aren’t made based on what another person says, but on what the persons themselves experience.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Julianne is just deeply disturbed by that kind of activity. And that’s okay. She doesn’t have to participate in that. But one can’t define what is painful for another person based on their own feelings and expectations. Pain is what the person says it is, not what another person says it is. And thankfully mental health diagnoses aren’t made based on what another person says, but on what the persons themselves experience.

She is free to be deeply disturbed by it. Heck, I’m pretty disturbed by most of the hardcore stuff myself. But labeling someone a sociopath for being in to it is incorrect and irresponsible.

 

[Rence]

Because of the chemical rush things that would otherwise hurt can feel very good and thrilling during sex.

Side note: Most people think I’m weird but being tattooed feels like I’m getting a massage. I think its the endorphins. I relax and almost fall asleep while getting a tattoo while everyone else in the parlor is wincing through theirs.

Also, the BDSM community makes a strong distinction between pain and harm. And harm is avoided at all costs.

Yah, and I’ve been called ‘crazy’ because I actually like when the front of my thighs are waxed. Mind you, I didn’t say that I like getting waxed, just the front of my thighs – because it doesn’t hurt but feels good. People need to stop judging others based on their own individual experiences because everyone is different. I can understand when someone has an adversion to something that causes pain. But stories like 50 shades (or my friend’s hubby using hot wax, or my friend’s like of being paddled) is not about pain being inflicted for the purpose of inflicting pain. If it’s not painful to the person, then it’s not pain.

 

[epan]

Julianne is just deeply disturbed by that kind of activity. And that’s okay. She doesn’t have to participate in that. But one can’t define what is painful for another person based on their own feelings and expectations. Pain is what the person says it is, not what another person says it is. And thankfully mental health diagnoses aren’t made based on what another person says, but on what the persons themselves experience.

When in an Indian restaurant with friends recently, the server asked how hot their food should be, on a scale of 1-10. Most said “2”, others said “3”. It created a bit of a stir, when I said “10”. My fellow diners thought I was crazy, and waited expectantly for me to take that first bite, only to be disappointed. I liked it.

I draw an analogy to sexual tastes. As long as everything is consensual between man and wife, then it is simply a matter or personal preference and taste.

 

[Rence]

When in an Indian restaurant with friends recently, the server asked how hot their food should be, on a scale of 1-10. Most said “2”, others said “3”. It created a bit of a stir, when I said “10”. My fellow diners thought I was crazy, and waited expectantly for me to take that first bite, only to be disappointed. I liked it.

I draw an analogy to sexual tastes. As long as everything is consensual between man and wife, then it is simply a matter or personal preference and taste.

LOL, that’s actualy another really good example. I was out eating with two friends, and two of us were laughing at the one who was crying while eating something terribly hot. It was so hot that tears were rolling down his face. My friend didn’t understand why he liked it so much because it looked uncomfortable for him. But he said it felt so good and tasted so good and he was loving it

I can relate though because though I don’t usually eat those ‘flamin hot cheetos’ once in a while I will have a taste for them. Once the craving for hot food is satisified, I don’t want it anymore and you couldn’t pay me to eat it. So I understand the food heat draw too

 

[Rence]

On the subject of the book, I’d never heard of it until everyone on CAF started going nuts over it. Then again, most if my friends are men in their late 20’s. They will not be reading Twilight fanfic.

Well, I have read the Twilight novels, and 50 shades, and I don’t see the similarities except for one thing: the Jacob/Jose similarities. That’s about it.

However, I think way too much emphasis is being given to the “BDSM” aspect that I argue is barely touched upon in this book. After 3/4 of the first novel, there is no BDSM in the books. I think the more important matter is he immoral behavior as an unmarried couple that this couple is engaging in. I think younger people need to be discussing that rather than the sexual preferences of the couple. It just proves how comfortable secular society is with premarital sex.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Um…I disagree. And the wide world of mental health professionals would disagree too. Calling someone a sociopath/psychopath (which is actually referred to as antisocial personality disorder) or a narcissist (narcissistic personality disorder) based on what sexually arouses them makes no sense and is irresponsible. Both diagnosis have a long list of symptoms and a patient must exhibit many of them to qualify. An interest in BDSM is not one of the characteristics, and even if it were there would have to be many others also present to warrent that kind of severe and devastating label.

Well as an atheist, you have a different perspective than someone coming from a faith-based viewpoint. Everything is valid to you. Relativism is perfectly comfortable. I can see that many Catholics are also relativists, as is evidenced by many responses on this thread.

I actually don’t care if you disagree, and I don’t even care about my own opinion. What I care about is GOD’S will, and from what I know, hurting someone else or being hurt for sexual gratification does not qualify as God’s desire for us. You can say “pain is relative” all you want, but that’s like saying “what is porn?” Pain is pain.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Well as an atheist, you have a different perspective than someone coming from a faith-based viewpoint. Everything is valid to you. Relativism is perfectly comfortable. I can see that many Catholics are also relativists, as is evidenced by many responses on this thread.

I actually don’t care if you disagree, and I don’t even care about my own opinion. What I care about is GOD’S will, and from what I know, hurting someone else or being hurt for sexual gratification does not qualify as God’s desire for us. You can say “pain is relative” all you want, but that’s like saying “what is porn?” Pain is pain.

You can have the opinion all you want, that’s not a problem. The problem is putting inaccurate medical labels on it. Medicine is objective. Using labels where they don’t for just because you feel like it would mean that you’re the one being relativistic.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Here’s the Dr. Drew Pinsky quote, since I brought it up:

WASHINGTON - A popular novel that has gained national attention is a “horribly written” story about a pathological, abusive relationship that in no way resembles a healthy love life, according to an expert.

“Why women would pick this up as any sort of substitute for intimacy or any sort of model for a reasonable relationship, I find just sort of disturbing,” says Dr. Drew Pinksy, a relationship expert, about E. L. James’ “50 Shades of Grey.” "Maybe I have no business commenting on how women massage their fantasy life. Indeed I don’t. But as I look at this as a clinician, the idea that women look at this relationship as anything other than absolute, categorical, profound pathology is more than I can imagine

I can’t emphasize enough the disturbing quality of this," Pinsky says. “This is a woman who is naïve to these issues, and then is manipulated and exploited by a man who has a severe personality disorder and a sex addiction who is violent with her, it is just too much to be understood.”

 

[epan]

Well as an atheist, you have a different perspective than someone coming from a faith-based viewpoint. Everything is valid to you. Relativism is perfectly comfortable. I can see that many Catholics are also relativists, as is evidenced by many responses on this thread.

I actually don’t care if you disagree, and I don’t even care about my own opinion. What I care about is GOD’S will, and from what I know, hurting someone else or being hurt for sexual gratification does not qualify as God’s desire for us. You can say “pain is relative” all you want, but that’s like saying “what is porn?” Pain is pain.

Actually, Pain is not always pain. There are numerous studies on this. Even similar physiological responses are perceived differently. Then there are differences in physiology.

In fact. women and men even react differently to pain killing medications.

No, it is not true that “pain is pain”. This is an objective and repeatable observation, not a relativistic argument, that there is relatively different responses to stimulus by different people.

 

[Rence]

Well as an atheist, you have a different perspective than someone coming from a faith-based viewpoint. Everything is valid to you. Relativism is perfectly comfortable. I can see that many Catholics are also relativists, as is evidenced by many responses on this thread.

I actually don’t care if you disagree, and I don’t even care about my own opinion. What I care about is GOD’S will, and from what I know, hurting someone else or being hurt for sexual gratification does not qualify as God’s desire for us. You can say “pain is relative” all you want, but that’s like saying “what is porn?” Pain is pain.

I think part of the problem is that you’re insisting that one is always being ‘hurt’ or subjected to ‘pain’ based on your personal perceptions, and that’s not the reality of it. When one enjoys an act due to the heightened sexual pleasure they get from it, then it’s not ‘pain’ and it doesn’t ‘hurt’.

Pain is relative and it is relative ONLY to the person experiencing it – or not experiencing it. Another person cannot possibly gauge another person’s pain, which is why even doctors and nursing use a pain scale that only the patient can gauge or give qualities – and it’s whatever the person says it is. Another person isn’t qualified to gauge another person’s pain. There is no Church teaching that says that married couples can’t dabble in rough-play into their bed. The Church says that all acts have to be consensual, with respect to both parties, end ‘properly’ and fulful requirements of the unitive and procreative properties. I’m glad you say you don’t care about your own opinion, because that’s exactly what it is, and you’re quite entitled to it. But the Church doesn’t teach what you say above and not all people will share your opinion, and that doesn’t make them any more or less in compliance with Church teaching regarding sex and marriage than you.

 

[knotanes]

I am not going to go around with you about this.

Sadism
Masochism
Bondage
“Discipline”

are all DISORDERED acts. They are perversions of sacred sexual intimacy. It is DISORDERED and sinful to do such things to another person’s body. I don’t care what label you give it. It’s perverted, not normal, sinful, disgusting, harmful, sick. There, how’s that?

I have to agree. As for touting the objectivity of science, medicine, and mental health professionals, I’m not generally impressed. This isn’t the kind of truth you’re going to find under a microscope nor is truth arrived at by consensus. At the turn of the 20th century this is the same community that believed it was a good thing for women to go see their doctors for “massage” treatments. Their brand truth isn’t always lasting. Materialism has very definite limits.

The current mode of thought seems to be “if it feels good and nobody dies, do it” among the non-religious and “if it feels good and you’re married, go for it” among the religiously inclined.

I don’t think that’s a good call. One error can lead to more error in an ever-increasing chain of error. You don’t know what kind of gateway you might be passing through. Personally, I wouldn’t do it, even if by some odd chance I had an interest in that direction.

 

[vera_dicere]

Pretty much everyone I know is reading this muck, which is what confuses me, with such amazing, wonderful literature available, in both contempory and classical circles - why are people downing their IQs to read this smut?

What an absolute waste of paper, why aren’t all the tree huggers protesting this tree abortion?

 

[Crescentinus]

Pretty much everyone I know is reading this muck, which is what confuses me, with such amazing, wonderful literature available, in both contempory and classical circles - why are people downing their IQs to read this smut?

What an absolute waste of paper, why aren’t all the tree huggers protesting this tree abortion?

They know not of good literature, in most cases. Another reason is because only the mediocre ones get noticed.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

They know not of good literature, in most cases. Another reason is because only the mediocre ones get noticed.

One word: Marketing.

 

[epan]

One word: Marketing.

I read it very quickly, out of curiosity. I found it to be boring. I didn’t see anything in it which would qualify as especially “literary”.

 

[Rence]

Pretty much everyone I know is reading this muck, which is what confuses me, with such amazing, wonderful literature available, in both contempory and classical circles - why are people downing their IQs to read this smut?

What an absolute waste of paper, why aren’t all the tree huggers protesting this tree abortion?

Maybe they’re reading it on their Kindles or Nooks