500 Years of Protestantism: 38 Things Martin Luther Wrote

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^^ So you’ve never met any of the sort that call themselves Catholic (without being in communion with Rome)?
 
EvangelCatholic said:
If one believes that “everyone wants to be called Catholic” then they have no experience with Protestants. Even among Lutherans, who claim to be catholic, there are many who distance themselves from that term other than reciting the creeds. In-fact, an ongoing concern for some Lutherans is that the church is becoming “too catholic”; this is especially evident in the ELCA when Apostolic Succession was re-introduced.

To be ‘catholic’ in some parts of the U.S. is to be viewed with suspicion and perhaps derision; such as the rural Midwest and South.
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You already know so well, Jesus already established His Church 2000 years ago Matthew 16:16-19 . It’s the Catholic Church. There are no off shoots, no denominations, and no such thing as seperate but equal. Jesus hates division from what He establishes John 17:20-23.

Luther, the father of Proptestantism, and the father of your particular group of believers, left Our Lord’s Church 500 years ago. That Protestant revolt became serial dissent down to today by all kinds of people. So when we finally get our heads around the magnitude of this dissent, and get to the bottomline, it seems to me, the question is,

Q: When Protestants regardless of stripe and name, see THEIR history and where they came from, how do Protestants, being sola scriptura folks, defend themselves against Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 . considering there is no expiration date to that condemnation of division / dissension / schism (whichever word a person’s particular translation uses)
 
steve_b said:
You already know so well, Jesus already established His Church 2000 years ago Matthew 16:16-19 . It’s the Catholic Church. There are no off shoots, no denominations, and no such thing as seperate but equal. Jesus hates division from what He establishes John 17:20-23.

Luther, the father of Proptestantism, and the father of your particular group of believers, left Our Lord’s Church 500 years ago. That Protestant revolt became serial dissent down to today by all kinds of people. So when we finally get our heads around the magnitude of this dissent, and get to the bottomline, it seems to me, the question is,

Q: When Protestants regardless of stripe and name, see THEIR history and where they came from, how do Protestants, being sola scriptura folks, defend themselves against Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 . considering there is no expiration date to that condemnation of division / dissension / schism (whichever word a person’s particular translation uses)
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I would refer you to the Catholic-Lutheran dialogue over the past 50 years. You may want to read '‘From Conflict to Communion’ as Lutherans and Catholics prepare to celebrate the 500th year of the Reformation. To cling to outdated notions doesn’t enhance understanding and is contrary to what has been accomplished between Lutherans and Catholics. lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/From%20Conflict%20to%20Communion.pdf
 
=Randy Carson;11220576]“Protestantism is one of the major divisions within Christianity. It has been defined as 'any of several church denominations denying the universal authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth” and, more broadly, to mean Christianity outside “of an Orthodox or Catholic church’.”
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But even those principles are not uniform, either in their acceptance by groups placed under the heading of protestant, or even their definition.
I think what you mean, Jon, is that to speak of Protestantism in any meaningful way requires great care and precision given the lack of uniformity in doctrine and style of worship, etc.
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This, as well as various different points of origin, other than that of Pentecost. And it is here that the problem comes in.
Lutherans and Anabaptists, for example, are both termed protestant, and yet they have really no other commonality beyond being Christian. When Luther is termed “Father of the Reformation”, or “Father of Protestantism”, it isn’t that he is or was the foundong thinker for all western non-Catholic communions, and it isn’t that all western non-Catholic communions have their roots in Lutheranism, then splintered off. It is simply because, unlike Hus, whose reformation kind of, um, burned out, Luther’s survived for any number of theological and political reasons.
But the term is not meaningless.
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It is only meaningless when it is used to imply that there is or was a monolithic “Protestant Church”, which then splintered apart. When used as shorthand to identify that general group of communions that are western non-Catholic, then it is not meaningless.

Jon
 
ffg said:
I appreciate your sentiment. Though I disagree with looking at the division that we can see in this site as negative. In order to learn, we must approach that which we do not know or understand. This almost certainly guarantees a disagreement.

If there was not division between religions, this site would be a bunch of Catholics debating what shade of purple should be used in advent (which probably occurs in another folder of threads I’m sure).

The civility here is genuine, even with a little fast back and forth sometimes.

Happyness in this world is fleeting. Not that it’s bad, it’s just not something we can count on.

If it was important, I think we would have seen more campfires and songs when Jesus taught.

What’s not fleeting is what is true.
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Well said, it is Catholics answers forums NCR…bound to be disagreements unless we all play Pretend there are no differences that matter.
Mary.
 
pocohombre said:
Would you then consider the term "catholic’ as rendered meaningless ?
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I think it can be, as any term not properly employed can be rendered meaningless. I do identify myself as catholic, but also use the qualifier evangelical, hence Evangelical Catholic, because typically when one says they are Catholic it is assumed they are in communion with the Bishop of Rome, which I am not.

Jon
 
Randy_Carson said:
Jon will respond for himself, but my opinion is that the word “catholic” still means universal whereas the word “Catholic” apparently depends on who is using it!

Everybody wants to be called Catholic, but the folks who coined the term back in the first century are now headquartered in Rome.
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:amen:
 
EvangelCatholic said:
I would refer you to the Catholic-Lutheran dialogue over the past 50 years. You may want to read '‘From Conflict to Communion’ as Lutherans and Catholics prepare to celebrate the 500th year of the Reformation. To cling to outdated notions doesn’t enhance understanding and is contrary to what has been accomplished between Lutherans and Catholics. lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/From%20Conflict%20to%20Communion.pdf
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Celebrate?

Wouldn’t quiet reflection and repentance be more appropriate?
 
EvangelCatholic said:
I would refer you to the Catholic-Lutheran dialogue over the past 50 years. You may want to read '‘From Conflict to Communion’ as Lutherans and Catholics prepare to celebrate the 500th year of the Reformation. To cling to outdated notions doesn’t enhance understanding and is contrary to what has been accomplished between Lutherans and Catholics. lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/From%20Conflict%20to%20Communion.pdf
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  1. In 2017, when Lutheran Christians celebrate the anniversary of the beginning of the Reformation, they are not thereby celebrating the division of the Western church. No one who is theologically responsible can celebrate the division of Christians from one another.
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Peter_J said:
At the risk of getting off onto a side road or byway, do people ever take you for a self-hating Lutheran? (If so I can sympathize, since some have thought me a self-hating Catholic.)
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No, not self-hating. I have heard the term “Romanized” whispered before, however. 😊

Jon
 
EvangelCatholic said:
I would refer you to the Catholic-Lutheran dialogue over the past 50 years. You may want to read '‘From Conflict to Communion’ as Lutherans and Catholics prepare to celebrate the 500th year of the Reformation. To cling to outdated notions doesn’t enhance understanding and is contrary to what has been accomplished between Lutherans and Catholics. lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/From%20Conflict%20to%20Communion.pdf
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I’m familiar with the talks. Keep in mind, while dialogues and commissions are good and needed, they are only dialogues. They don’t speak for or obligate the Church. There is nothing outdated about the status of division. There is no expiration date to those condemnations in scripture on division…no matter how long division lasts., division is division. Cutting to the chase, after 50 years of talk, can I receive communion in your church? NO. Are you invited to receive communion in the Catholic Church? NO. That tells both of us where communion is. 🤷
 
steve_b said:
I’m familiar with the talks. Keep in mind, while dialogues and commissions are good and needed, they are only dialogues. They don’t speak for or obligate the Church. There is nothing outdated about the status of division. There is no expiration date to those condemnations in scripture on division…no matter how long division lasts., division is division. Cutting to the chase, after 50 years of talk, can I receive communion in your church? NO. Are you invited to receive communion in the Catholic Church? NO. That tells both of us where communion is. 🤷
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Oh, on the contrary, my friend. These agreements and declarations are taken quite seriously. Why would Catholic and Lutherans bother unless they were seeking reunification. Pope Benedict made very strong overtures to Lutherans and Pope Francis may take it ever futher. You may be very surprised by the time the 500th anniversary of the Reformation takes place in 2017.

Also, Roman Catholics are invited to commune in Lutheran churches and Lutherans are invited to do the same on special occasions.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Oh, on the contrary, my friend. These agreements and declarations are taken quite seriously. Why would Catholic and Lutherans bother unless they were seeking reunification. Pope Benedict made very strong overtures to Lutherans and Pope Francis may take it ever futher. You may be very surprised by the time the 500th anniversary of the Reformation takes place in 2017.
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nothing happened with those overtures when Benedict was at the helm, and so we’ll see with pope Francis. All I can say, don’t assume anything
E:
Also, Roman Catholics are invited to commune in Lutheran churches and Lutherans are invited to do the same on special occasions.
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With all due respect, The Catholic Church prohibits Catholics from receiving communion in a Lutheran church. And the CC doesn’t invite Lutherans to receive the Eucharist in the CC. Special occasion refers to a Lutheran in proximaty of death.
 
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