500 Years of Protestantism: 38 Things Martin Luther Wrote

  • Thread starter Thread starter yosephdaviyd
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You’ve stumped me here. I do not understand the question.
You stated the Orthodox are a true church. However, the Orthodox teach truths contrary to Catholic dogma, and Catholic dogma is contrary to Orthodox dogma. If they teach mutually exclusive truth, then how could they both be true churches?
The hole is getting deeper.
Lutherans claim to be sola scripturists. Now, I do not want to set up a straw man, so I’ll concede that the definition of sola scriptura has to be carefully defined, etc. (That in and of itself is a problem created since 1517, but we can ignore that for now.)
What you’ve just acknowledged is that you and Jon or you and steido would have difficulty agreeing upon which of your two “churches” would have jurisdiction over a some dispute that you might get into. You would not recognize the authority of the LCMS to decide the matter, and they would not be comfortable being judged by a tribunal of ELDoNA elders. Yet, you both claim to be Lutherans and you both look to the Confessions guide you in your understanding of Sacred Scripture.
You have Sacred Scripture and you have a Tradition, but you have no teaching authority which can adjudicate in the case of a disagreement.
We have no teaching authority that is over another Lutheran body that is true. In other words, decisions of the LCMS will not affect the WELS. That doesn’t mean the teaching authority within its own spheres does not have any authority, however. I do not need the WELS to have authority over my church body in order to submit to my own church’s decision. Why would I seek the authority of the LCMS or WELS? I’m not under their discipline.

Conversely, you have mutually exclusive authorities within Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Does that negate the authority of Rome?
Jon seems like a pretty nice guy, but I think he would concede that he is capable of sinning against other people. Could it be that you might sin against him?
Sure, and the first step would be to resolve it between ourselves.
You shouldn’t. You should accept the interpretation of the teaching authority of the Church which Jesus invested in Peter and his successors.
That’s what Catholics have been trying to say for 500 years.
Where can I find the infallible definition of Matt 18?
Of course they have! Which is why we have a LIVING magisterium which can correct them. Your questions suggest that you are starting to see the problem inherent within Protestantism.
It has? :rolleyes: You haven’t visited many parishes then!
 
perhaps a better translation of the idea is the Confessions reflect scripture.
Of course. I was just having some fun there. 🙂
Randy, could you address that rather interesting point Per Crucem brought up?
  1. The true church teaches truth
  2. The Catholic church says the Orthodox church is also a true church.
  3. The Orthodox and Catholic church don’t agree on dogmatic truth.
  4. Therefore the Catholic church can’t be the true church
Ooh. A Catholic Stumper, eh? Well, let’s see what I can come up with off the top of my head. 😛


  1. *]True. Though I would probably have to parse this very carefully to arrive at that conclusion. That’s not the biggest problem with your argument.
    *]True. But what does this mean in Catholic theology? It means that the Orthodox have maintained Apostolic Succession and thus, they have a valid priesthood and valid sacraments. It does not mean that every doctrine they teach is acceptable to the Catholic Church. The Orthodox have valid sacraments but teach some things which are not true, and this does not disqualify them from being a true church. (It’s probably not appropriate to speak of them in the singular.)
    *]True. So, one of the two must be wrong, eh? I agree.
    *]False. It does not follow that the Catholic Church is in error when it judges the Orthodox churches to be true churches because complete theological accuracy is not sole criteria for the definition of a “true church”.

    I hope this helps, and I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks because I’m going to do some more thinking and research on this. I’m actually kind of impressed with the argument…you made me pause for a few minutes. That doesn’t happen every day, and I like the challenge.

    Well done.

    :tiphat:
 
. 🙂

they have a valid priesthood and valid sacraments. It does not mean that every doctrine they teach is acceptable to the Catholic Church. The Orthodox have valid sacraments but teach some things which are not true, and this does not disqualify them from being a true church.
That’s a reasonable explanation!

It comes close to how we view ‘church validity’ in where the Gospel is proclaimed and the Sacraments are administered.
 
That’s a reasonable explanation!

It comes close to how we view ‘church validity’ in where the Gospel is proclaimed and the Sacraments are administered.
Thank you, Ben.

We are closer in unity than I ever realized, and this makes me wonder if we might see reunification in our lifetimes, after all. :gopray2:
 
This is just factually incorrect. The LCMS has been involved, admittedly somewhat reluctantly at times, in all but one of the Lutheran Catholic dialogue sessions here in the US. We are signators of the recent “Hope For Eternal Life” document.
The Lutheran Church-Canada recently opened new dialogue with the Canadian Catholic Bishops.

Further, you know quite well the difference between Confessional Lutherans and other Lutheran. Simply ask yourself the question: Do you believe the confessions because they “are” a right reflection of scripture, or do you believe the confessions “in so far as” they reflect the truth of scripture. The former is confessional, the latter is not.

Jon
Jon, if you noticed, I did not specific the LCMS and have learned by reading your and other LCMS posters that the Missouri Synod is in dialogue with Catholics and even Anglicans. But why doesn’t the LCMS have on-going contact with the Reformed?

Your distinction of what a “confessional Lutheran” is may be a bit simplified. As Lutherans, we all ascribe to the Confessions as the true reflection of holy Scripture but there is an understanding that the Gospel is greater than the Law [remember Law and Gospel when we were kids in catechism class?]. What some refer to as higher criticism but that is another topic altogether.
 
Jon, if you noticed, I did not specific the LCMS and have learned by reading your and other LCMS posters that the Missouri Synod is in dialogue with Catholics and even Anglicans. But why doesn’t the LCMS have on-going contact with the Reformed?
We have much less in common with the Reformed than we do with Catholics or Orthodox. Chiefly, we have a eucharistic commonality with the Catholics that we do not have with the Reformed. While the Catholics don’t readily admit we have a valid Lord’s Supper, we do acknowledge theirs as valid. Not so with Calvinists and their offshoots.
 
Of course. I was just having some fun there. 🙂

Ooh. A Catholic Stumper, eh? Well, let’s see what I can come up with off the top of my head. 😛


  1. *]True. Though I would probably have to parse this very carefully to arrive at that conclusion. That’s not the biggest problem with your argument.
    *]True. But what does this mean in Catholic theology? It means that the Orthodox have maintained Apostolic Succession and thus, they have a valid priesthood and valid sacraments. It does not mean that every doctrine they teach is acceptable to the Catholic Church. The Orthodox have valid sacraments but teach some things which are not true, and this does not disqualify them from being a true church. (It’s probably not appropriate to speak of them in the singular.)
    *]True. So, one of the two must be wrong, eh? I agree.
    *]False. It does not follow that the Catholic Church is in error when it judges the Orthodox churches to be true churches because complete theological accuracy is not sole criteria for the definition of a “true church”.

    I hope this helps, and I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks because I’m going to do some more thinking and research on this. I’m actually kind of impressed with the argument…you made me pause for a few minutes. That doesn’t happen every day, and I like the challenge.

    Well done.

    :tiphat:

  1. Also, Catholics and Orthodox differ on whether specific points at issue are genuine doctrinal disagreements or not. For instance, Catholics sometimes argue that the Filioque is appropriate in Latin but not in Greek, because of different linguistic nuances in the words translated by the English “proceed.” Depending on how you define it, the Filioque might be orthodox or heretical. This generally seems too loosey-goosey to the Orthodox.

    Edwin
 
I have a anti-calvinist bumper sticker too!

…well more accurately, I have a representation of one. 🙂
I love the play on words Ben! I’m going to pick up a bumper sticker as well so I can be
matching with Jon and Ben.
Mary.
 
Because even though Jesus had twelve apostles, He named one Rock, gave the keys to one man thereby establishing one royal steward in charge of His household, and instructed one shepherd to care and feed ALL the rest of the sheep (including the other 11).

And that man, Peter, traveled to Rome where the chair of Peter remains to this day.
Yes, that is the CC teaching. The protestant teaching is that Rome was ruled by a group of presbyters/bishops for quite a while. The “rcock” and keys’ was debated by some from the beginning of those terms being used to justify primacy (2nd,3rd century?) (Tertullian, Cyprian). Christ is the rock and has the keys. The papacy evolved. To this day the debate goes on.
 
Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
I’m afraid I’ve noticed that too. I wonder if some of my fellow Catholic have the idea that, since we have “Papal Infallibility”, Lutherans must have an equivalent, like “Infallibility of Martin Luther”.
Thanks steido. 🙂 I’m certainly no expert on Western Christianity in general or Lutheranism in particular, but I try to apply a little common sense when I read stuff like “Luther said Blank, so that proves that Lutherans teach Blank.”

Btw, I’ve enjoyed your posts too. 👍
 
Christ is the rock and has the keys.
Christ is the rock in SOME verses, but in Matthew 16:18, Jesus names Simon Peter the rock and identifies Himself as the builder.

As for the keys, Jesus gave them to Peter. Is there a verse showing where He took them back?
 
Christ is the rock in SOME verses, but in Matthew 16:18, Jesus names Simon Peter the rock and identifies Himself as the builder.

As for the keys, Jesus gave them to Peter. Is there a verse showing where He took them back?
I thought Peter was a “stone”. In Revelations Jesus has the keys. He did give them to Peter, just not sure it was also to all the apostles, all the disciples, down to every Christian. But for sure Jesus meant something by it.
 
I thought Peter was a “stone”.
Nope.

Petros and Petra–Much Ado About Nothing

Opponents of the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18 sometimes argue that in the Greek text the name of the apostle is Petros, while “rock” is rendered as petra. They claim that the former refers to a small stone, while the latter refers to a massive rock; so, if Peter was meant to be the massive rock, why isn’t his name Petra?

Note that Christ did not speak to the disciples in Greek. He spoke Aramaic, the common language of Palestine at that time. In that language the word for rock is kepha, which is what Jesus called him in everyday speech (note that in John 1:42 he was told, “You will be called Cephas”). What Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 was: “You are Kepha, and upon this kepha I will build my Church.”

When Matthew’s Gospel was translated from the original Aramaic to Greek, there arose a problem which did not confront the evangelist when he first composed his account of Christ’s life. In Aramaic the word kepha has the same ending whether it refers to a rock or is used as a man’s name. In Greek, though, the word for rock, petra, is feminine in gender. The translator could use it for the second appearance of kepha in the sentence, but not for the first because it would be inappropriate to give a man a feminine name. So he put a masculine ending on it, and hence Peter became Petros.

Furthermore, the premise of the argument against Peter being the rock is simply false. In first century Greek the words petros and petra were synonyms. They had previously possessed the meanings of “small stone” and “large rock” in some early Greek poetry, but by the first century this distinction was gone, as Protestant Bible scholars admit (see D. A. Carson’s remarks on this passage in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids: Zondervan Books]).

Some of the effect of Christ’s play on words was lost when his statement was translated from the Aramaic into Greek, but that was the best that could be done in Greek. In English, like Aramaic, there is no problem with endings; so an English rendition could read: “You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.”

Consider another point: If the rock really did refer to Christ (as some claim, based on 1 Cor. 10:4, “and the Rock was Christ” though the rock there was a literal, physical rock), why did Matthew leave the passage as it was? In the original Aramaic, and in the English which is a closer parallel to it than is the Greek, the passage is clear enough. Matthew must have realized that his readers would conclude the obvious from “Rock . . . rock.”

If he meant Christ to be understood as the rock, why didn’t he say so? Why did he take a chance and leave it up to Paul to write a clarifying text? This presumes, of course, that 1 Corinthians was written after Matthew’s Gospel; if it came first, it could not have been written to clarify it.

The reason, of course, is that Matthew knew full well that what the sentence seemed to say was just what it really was saying. It was Simon, weak as he was, who was chosen to become the rock and thus the first link in the chain of the papacy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top