%57 of American Catholic support some rights for LGBT people.

[1AugustSon7]

Rights flow from justice, and justice flows from our (rational) nature. No right can be granted contrary to nature. No right can be granted contrary to the truth, as that is contrary to justice, which is contrary to our nature and, therefore, cannot be a right.

So all human beings have certain rights that we all share and have just from being human. Everyone has a right to work, for dening that is tantamount to denying them their right to life, which is necessary for any rights or justice to exist at all. Arguably people have a right to defend themselves (granted) and their country (the arguable part) from aggressors; it is not obvious, however, to what extent others are obliged to make that possible for you or to facilitate it or what factors might militate against it or even possibly cancel it; if including you in your country’s defense would actually increase or jeopardize your nation’s chances of defending itself, then arguably your right to defend your country cannot be acted upon simply because you can’t actually do or accomplish it.

The difficulty with homosexuality in regards to rights is that it is, of itself, contrary to nature and therefore can have no rights flow specifically from it. Moreover, insomuch as it is contrary to nature, and is voluntarily done or embraced, it is also contrary to the truth and to justice. There is, therefore, something arguably outright unjust about it; and usually when we speak of people behaving unjustly we also speak of their giving up of certain of their rights, as when criminals are said to foresake or give-up their rights when they committ crimes, specifically their right to liberty that otherwise would make incarcerating them unjust and thus unlawful. I think it is this that is the reason so many people feel granting certain rights or special rights to homosexuals is just getting obnoxious or absurd; that is, that we’re doing practically the opposite of what the usual reasoning about rights would lead us to do or conclude. A right is never a license: James Bond has from the Brittish government a license to kill; no one has some unqualified right to kill. No one can possibly have a right to act contrary to justice.

 

[Moabiter]

1 - Laws protect LGBT people from discrimination.

As long as that doesn’t entail the right to marry, yes.

Furthermore, I have my reservations about the recent move here in Germany to grant gay civil-unions the same tax-advantages as marriages. Why? Because this tax advantage was put in place to make raising a family more affordable.

2 - Laws protect LGBT people from getting fired from their jobs for being gay.

Do you know anyone who argues against this?!?

(Exempting the case of priests persisting in engaging in sex outside of marriage. Heterosexual or otherwise. That’s a case for discipline).

3 - Laws allow LGBT people to serve openly in military.

Seriously, Americans, what took you so long to end such shameful discrimination?

4 - The right for adoption.

Well, I might be persuaded to having gay couples being able to give a child a home if no other eligible couples come forward. A child should have a mother and father.

I find it a bit odd that you don’t list civil union and marriage. I’d say I’m not opposed to some form of civil union. I have no interest on making life hard for gay couples when it comes to say decisions in hospital, bank accounts, inheritance and such.

But marriage is between a man and a woman.

Anyway, I have to say gay marriage is not a hot-button issue for me. When it comes to social values, the sanctity of life, social justice and good stewardship of God’s creation are way more important concerns of mine.

 

[Publisher]

Marriage as defined by the civil authorities IS a right. This right to marry has been strafed as such by the SCOTUS no less than 14 times. What is and is not a right is not defined in our society by your specific religious beliefs but by the rule of civil law.

 

[JimG]

Marriage as defined by the civil authorities IS a right. This right to marry has been strafed as such by the SCOTUS no less than 14 times. What is and is not a right is not defined in our society by your specific religious beliefs but by the rule of civil law.

The freedom to marry has long been recognized as fundamental by the courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court. That right has implicitly been assumed to exist as the freedom of men and women to marry. The rights of persons of the same sex to “marry” was never addressed because it was never an issue.

But give the Court enough time, and it will find a constitutional justification for nearly anything. Even something so contradictory as same sex marriage.

This tendency of the Court to find reasons for overturning laws duly passed by legislatures was decried by Justices Black and Stewart in their dissent in Griswold v Connecticut. While they acknowledged the Court’s authority to negate plainly unconstitutional legislation, they also noted that nothing in the constitution gives the court veto power over legislatures, or makes the Court into a supervisory overseer of legislatures.

They went on to note that: “The adoption of such a loose, flexible, uncontrolled standard for holding laws unconstitutional, … will amount to a great unconstitutional shift of power to the courts which I believe and am constrained to say will be bad for the courts and worse for the country.”

But I’m afraid that those fears of a power shift to the court has now come to be realized.

 

[CopticChristian]

I thank each one of your for your opinion, I’m glad to see people who are okay with letting LGBT people live safely among us with no fear and it make me more proud to be catholic even though I know there are catholic who wants to see gay man dead. but these are small number of Catholics I believe.

God bless

I want them all dead. I want every last one of them dead, gone from the earth, into oblivion.

I want all people that suffer to die.

I want all people that look for greater glory to die.

I want all people that live to die and to want that is to acknowledge what is.

I want all people that believe that they can live forever to die so that they can find what it is that awaits them.

To that I would add I want them to die in due time according to the provisions that are accorded life and death.

What is it to have rights on earth that are not rights that are granted to you by being human? It isn’t us and them. Every Lesbian, every Gay, every, Bisexual and every transsexual is either a man or a woman and man and woman he created them.

Oh death where is thy sting? What is it to live if we fear dying? What is it to live in this world believing that rights based on sexual preference deserve consideration as you point out in this poll? The fact that there is a poll is exhibit one.

Somehow you have been duped into believing that there is “us” and “them”. No, we are they and they are us. Where you put your body parts on a given day does not equate to something other than man or woman as we were created and to discuss percentages as to what someone believes someone should have denies the real percentages.

100% male and female he created them, either male or female and for the ones that want to look at anomalies then ponder this……

Male and female He created them with and without anomaly in a way that our simple minds cannot understand and in a way that our simple minds translate to behavior justified.

The thought of believing that behavior renders someone to a specific class of human that should have rights should be buried with a tombstone that says “rest in peace”……this should die.

 

[JanetF]

English is not my native language, I’m sorry for any misspellings.

According to Evangelical website ( in my native language ) said that %57 of American Catholics support some rights for LGBT people. %38 of American Protestants support some rights for LGBT people. %8 of American Evangelicals support some rights for LGBT people. And %89 of Non-religious people support some rights for LGBT people.

I’m not surprised that the least people support the rights for LGBT people are Evangelicals. And proud that Catholic are the most even thought that %71 of Catholics in America believe that marriage is between one man and one woman.

But, my question is, Why? Why do in the west the most religious groups support some rights for LGBT people are Catholics ? ( For me there is nothing wrong with that ).

And you as Catholic, do you support some not all the rights for LGBT people. Like

1 - Laws protect LGBT people from discrimination.
2 - Laws protect LGBT people from getting fired from their jobs for being gay.
3 - Laws allow LGBT people to serve openly in military.
4 - The right for adoption.

PS: I hope this thread will not turn into tens of pages from members arguing with each other and then lost the main point of my question.

catholics can support all but the right for adoption and marriage without violating the teachings of the Church. In fact the Church tells us to be compassionate and loving toward LGBT people. However, we are to stop short of supporting their lifestyle choices unless they decide to life a chaste life.

 

[Kevin_B]

As long as that doesn’t entail the right to marry, yes.

Furthermore, I have my reservations about the recent move here in Germany to grant gay civil-unions the same tax-advantages as marriages. Why? Because this tax advantage was put in place to make raising a family more affordable.

So is it only given to couples with children? If these tax breaks exist only to make having children affordable, then giving then to childless heterosexual couples is just as absurd as giving them to homosexual couples. That makes as much sense as giving a homebuying credit to anyone who is eligible to buy a home, regardless of whether or not they actually buy one.

Do you know anyone who argues against this?!?

Congress. The Employment Non- discrimination act has been brought to every congress for 20 years and has been voted against every time. If “no one” believed LBGT individuals should be fired from their jobs, why is it do hard to pass a bill banning exactly that?

[Dont Ask, Don’t Tell]
Seriously, Americans, what took you so long to end such shameful discrimination?

Conservatives.

This tendency of the Court to find reasons for overturning laws duly passed by legislatures was decried by Justices Black and Stewart in their dissent in Griswold v Connecticut. While they acknowledged the Court’s authority to negate plainly unconstitutional legislation, they also noted that nothing in the constitution gives the court veto power over legislatures, or makes the Court into a supervisory overseer of legislatures.

They went on to note that: “The adoption of such a loose, flexible, uncontrolled standard for holding laws unconstitutional, … will amount to a great unconstitutional shift of power to the courts which I believe and am constrained to say will be bad for the courts and worse for the country.”

But I’m afraid that those fears of a power shift to the court has now come to be realized.

Perhaps if legislatures stopped passing laws reducing the freedoms Americans have, the courts never would have gotten this powerful. They had their chance to pass reasonable laws without strict judicial oversight, and they lost it by passing laws telling people what race they could marry, what contraceptives they could use, or who they could have sex with. Our founding fathers are rolling in their graves for giving government so much power over our lives. Spreading morality, just like feeding the poor or housing the homeless, should be done by private organizations, not the government.

catholics can support all but the right for adoption and marriage without violating the teachings of the Church. In fact the Church tells us to be compassionate and loving toward LGBT people. However, we are to stop short of supporting their lifestyle choices unless they decide to life a chaste life.

True. You cannot support civil same sex marriage without violating the teaching of the church. However, since this is a matter of politics, not faith or morality, the Church is not necessarially infallible in this issue and can be wrong. The church believes it is the role of government to preserve the traditional definition of marriage. If you do not agree that this should be the role of government, you can disagree with that and still be in full communion with the Church.

 

[gracepoole]

English is not my native language, I’m sorry for any misspellings.

According to Evangelical website ( in my native language ) said that %57 of American Catholics support some rights for LGBT people. %38 of American Protestants support some rights for LGBT people. %8 of American Evangelicals support some rights for LGBT people. And %89 of Non-religious people support some rights for LGBT people.

I’m not surprised that the least people support the rights for LGBT people are Evangelicals. And proud that Catholic are the most even thought that %71 of Catholics in America believe that marriage is between one man and one woman.

But, my question is, Why? Why do in the west the most religious groups support some rights for LGBT people are Catholics ? ( For me there is nothing wrong with that ).

And you as Catholic, do you support some not all the rights for LGBT people. Like

1 - Laws protect LGBT people from discrimination.
2 - Laws protect LGBT people from getting fired from their jobs for being gay.
3 - Laws allow LGBT people to serve openly in military.
4 - The right for adoption.

PS: I hope this thread will not turn into tens of pages from members arguing with each other and then lost the main point of my question.

I think the most intriguing aspect of this issue is the view most American Catholics have of homosexuality in general. As noted here, 69% of American Catholics reject the idea that sexual orientation can be changed and 56% believe that homosexual acts are not sinful. With these views in place, it would be more shocking if American Catholics weren’t in favor of LGBT rights.

 

[njlisa]

People are attacked for standing in the wrong spot, people are attacked because it was dark, it was light, it was hot or it was cold. My brother was once attacked because he was wearing one flip flop (his other leg was amputated) - the guy thought it was stupid for a one legged man to wear a flip flop.

I dunno about that. I had someone throw an egg at me from a moving car while I was standing on Eighth Avenue in NYC. They yelled anti-gay slurs at me – just because I was standing on the street in what is considered a gay neighborhood. All I was doing was standing with friends after we had gone to an off-Broadway show.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think the most intriguing aspect of this issue is the view most American Catholics have of homosexuality in general. As noted here, 69% of American Catholics reject the idea that sexual orientation can be changed and 56% believe that homosexual acts are not sinful. With these views in place, it would be more shocking if American Catholics weren’t in favor of LGBT rights.

Gracepoole,

What is shocking is that beliefs based on polls ignore reality. If 69% of Catholics reject the idea that sexual orientation can be changed what would that number be after viewing this website.

voices-of-change.org/

The testimonials presented here are authentic Voices Of Change; men and women who have experienced authentic change in their sexual orientation. Here, they speak for the many Americans and people around the world for whom homosexuality is not naturally inborn.

What someone believes to be true and what is true cannot be abstracted from a poll.

How many people believe that diabetes cannot be cured? It really does not matter because after gastric bypass people with diabetes having lost weight are no longer diabetic. What about people that are obese? Studies have shown that with weight loss and change in diet those taking insulin no longer need insulin and are no longer diabetic. This can be seen in the writings of many that would include Dr. Joel Fuhrman.

What about addiction as a disease? If you were to look at how many physicians and how many addicts and how many in the general population believe that addiction is a disease there would be numbers all over the place and yet there is no proof that addiction is a disease. This can be seen in The Truth about addiction.

What about the need for rehab to resolve addiction? How many polled would say absolutely have to go to rehab to resolve addiction, including physicians and non-physicians? Does not matter because there are many that kick their habits spontaneously and that would include Robert Redford and Bing Crosby among others.

Polls mean absoulutely nothing concerning beliefs other than what someone has either come to believe based on many variables that are not elicited by the polling.

What rights do we have that are not God given? What would a poll about that show?

 

[gracepoole]

Gracepoole,

What is shocking is that beliefs based on polls ignore reality. If 69% of Catholics reject the idea that sexual orientation can be changed what would that number be after viewing this website.

voices-of-change.org/

What someone believes to be true and what is true cannot be abstracted from a poll.

How many people believe that diabetes cannot be cured? It really does not matter because after gastric bypass people with diabetes having lost weight are no longer diabetic. What about people that are obese? Studies have shown that with weight loss and change in diet those taking insulin no longer need insulin and are no longer diabetic. This can be seen in the writings of many that would include Dr. Joel Fuhrman.

What about addiction as a disease? If you were to look at how many physicians and how many addicts and how many in the general population believe that addiction is a disease there would be numbers all over the place and yet there is no proof that addiction is a disease. This can be seen in The Truth about addiction.

What about the need for rehab to resolve addiction? How many polled would say absolutely have to go to rehab to resolve addiction, including physicians and non-physicians? Does not matter because there are many that kick their habits spontaneously and that would include Robert Redford and Bing Crosby among others.

Polls mean absoulutely nothing concerning beliefs other than what someone has either come to believe based on many variables that are not elicited by the polling.

What rights do we have that are not God given? What would a poll about that show?

I was merely explaining a root cause of American Catholics’ desire for the kind of LGBT rights mentioned by the OP. These folks believe xxx, and so therefore they also accept yyy.

(Though the issue of “conversion therapy” is a dead horse. From both the standpoint of long-term effectiveness and psychological soundness, the evidence is stacked against going that route.)

 

[Slaney]

1 man hung on a Cross…

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

CPMR