57 Years Mormon

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You’re assuming that you know what was in everyone’s mind. I am not convinced.
 
Sorry, you inferred they were acting as you might act yourself, given the right circumstances. My point really is, Catholic morality does not view revenge and justice as the same thing. Also prisoners are viewed as one of the vulnerable of society, grouped by Jesus with the widowed and the poor.

So Smith was in the vulnerable position. The jailer, incredulously, armed him. Indeed, we can not know for certain that Smith would have been murdered, but I don’t think it is a stretch to surmise his fate was sealed and he was going to die that day, whether he was armed or not.
 
So, Jesus was lying? What else can your concept of a “restoration” imply? We need prophesies of this (not from the BOM) dates, times, men’s names, doctrines that failed, etc.
 
These prophesies are from the Bible.

Think about it Catholics ----- the Protestants exist because they recognize the true church is not here and my church is not a protestant church.

Ancient prophets foretold of the apostasy prior to Christ.

So bring whatever you will ---- it does not cause myself to run back to Catholicism.
 
Your church (LDS) sort of is a Protestant church in that you’re a breakoff from the Church established by Joseph Smith. Y’all are a branch of the RLDS.
 
If there was a great apostasy please tell me in your own words what it was and when it happened.
 
There are no Bible prophecies regarding Mormonism. Mormons do proof text a handful of Bible prophecies, claiming they have something to do with Mormonism, but none of them actually do.
 
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Sorry, RebeccaJ. My earlier post was accidentally deleted. I do agree with you. I just don’t agree that he was martyred. And I know you don’t think he was either. We know he died in a gun fight and beyond that is mostly speculation.

Only God has the right to give life or take it away.
 
gazelam, I think I made it pretty clear on the original post that I’m new with the Catholic church. I have had ONE week of RCIA. You really think I have all the answers already? Give me a break. I’m back in school, starting at the beginning. Now, after 57 years in the Mormon church, having served two missions, been in five bishoprics, taught seminary, taught gospel doctrine multiple times, served as an ordinance worker in the temple, having three kids who I supported on honorable missions . . . well, I think I could easily address the Mormon beliefs. But that’s not where I am with Catholicism. So give me a little time to understand those things myself and then I’ll be happy to share. Fair enough?
 
Defending himself? or defending the other people trapped in the room with him including his brother who he loved? I don’t think you or I can say for sure.
 
jaygunther said:
If there was a great apostasy please tell me in your own words what it was and when it happened
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Jesus called and ordained apostles to be at the head and lead the church, not bishops. After Jesus was resurrected and ascended to heaven the apostles continued to lead the church, not bishops. As the apostles died the remaining apostles ordained more what? apostles, not bishops. The bible shows several additional apostles ordained to fill vacancies that were not part of the original 12. Nowhere in the bible does it say that the office of apostle was not meant to continue, or that the apostles authority was transferred to bishops. The apostasy started when there were no more apostles left on the earth, and the church, finding themselves without apostles, developed the doctrine that bishops took over that role, 1st - 2nd century. The Catholic Church does not have apostolic succession, it has bishopric succession.
As for the evidence showing the condition of the apostasy, you will find that as I did if you study it. what I mentioned earlier about the massacre is a good place to start, and I know the catholics on here will say Oh, that wasn’t the catholic church’s fault, it was the French monarch! it was the secular authorities! But you also need to look at sources other than the catholic apologists who have an interest in keeping people from leaving.
Another topic I would suggest looking into is the development of the concept of a “trinity”
Here’s a good article on it
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html
 
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po18guy said:
Jesus, who cannot lie (as the LDS can with its “holy lies”), stated clearly that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. You say that that those gates actually did prevail. Please explain.
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Yes, that’s a good point. If only we had an example in the bible of something or someone actually going into hell (hades) and hell not prevailing against him because he left hell. Jesus went into hell, and the gates of hell did not prevail against him, but he did die and go into hell first. The same is true of Christ’s Church, it was lost from the earth for a time but hell did not prevail against it because it has been restored. Jesus did not lie.
 
gazelam said:
Let me ask about your switch from a purely doctrinal stand point. Three principle doctrines in Catholicism (and I assume in all Orthodox Christianity) are:

The is only one divine being in the universe
God created everything from nothing (i.e., the doctrine of Creation ex-nihilo)
the doctrine of the Trinity (one God in three persons consubstantial with each other)

Each of these doctrines is clearly contradicted by the Bible.
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Each of these doctrines are NOT clearly contradicted by the Bible. It seems unfair to ask someone to justify your assertion.
 
thedweh said:
Jesus called and ordained apostles to be at the head and lead the church, not bishops.
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This is a claim made by Mormons which is contradicted by their own history. This could be one of the things that would drive someone away from Mormonism as they learn its history.
 
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Okay. That clears things up. So the apostle John . . . I guess he moved to the moon? And did he take the three Nephites with him? And all that stuff in the Book of Mormon about Mormon and Moroni and so forth . . . well, they obviously did not have the priesthood because that was a time when the priesthood was no longer on the earth. So, now that I know that John was either not an apostle or he didn’t live on the earth, nor the three Nephites or the others in the time period did not hold the priesthood, gosh, I don’t know . . . but thanks for clearing that up, sort of.
 
Yes no prophesies of “Mormonism”, as my church’s nickname place on us by enemies — there are Biblical references foretelling of the apostasy and the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ by ancient prophets.

No point of citing these scriptures because Catholics will contend my interpretation is wrong and of course their understanding is without question right ---- no wonder among other reasons why I left Catholicism to get the truth, instead of buying hook line and sinker what a priest said.
 
Well I’m sure they are wrong and your interpretation could be easily refuted. Please provide us with a verse you think foretells of an “apostasy.”
 
Your interpretation is false about the prophet Joseph Smith.

If you wish to think that is what he was about, continue your views.

Critics such as yourself do not convince me that I should leave the church ---- your views help me build my conviction, recognizing your assault attempts to show me and others apparently this is what the LDS church is about have no success on me.
 
Don’t Mormons have bishops? (Not valid ones, from a Catholic standpoint, but they do use the term)
 
Yes, they have Bishops who run their local congregations. But the claim they make is that the Catholic Church is not the true church because we don’t have Apostles leading the Church. Of course few Mormons realize that there were no Apostles for the first five years until Joseph Smith invent them in 1835. And they did not lead the their Church until after Joseph Smith’s death. So this need for Apostles was never part of Joseph Smith’s plan.
 
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