666...Who is the man that bares the mark?

[spina1953]

Luke Suncook I have no idea and neither do you what mark the beast is going to have. You want to worry about what might or might not happen all well and good Me I am going to worry about the present and what I need to be doing for my salvation since Jesus said no one knows the time or day and besides it adds nothing to salvation knowing when the end is.

 

[Luke-Suncook]

I agree, but I do have ideas, and this is the place for people to discuss, “the mark!”

I don’t worry about it either. I study salvation and the rest of the bible too, and I don’t worry about it. I worry more about the 100 something animals on the farm here.

As far as who bears the mark? Read about the Leviathan!

 

[HarryStotle]

Nero can’t be 666.

1. Nero was a political leader. 666 is religious.

This is just a tad anachronistic. Imperial Rome was very religious and its religious beliefs were inseparable from its politics. From the time of Augustus, emperors were deified after their deaths. When Claudius died he was deified by Nero. Once Nero established power, he allowed Claudius’ cult to lapse, built the Domus Aurea over the unfinished temple to Claudius and allowed the cult to his own genius as the “father” (or paterfamilias) of all the Roman people to flourish. The historian Tacitus notes that a senatorial proposal to dedicate a temple to Nero as a living divus, was to be understood as an ominous sign because “divine honours are not paid to an emperor till he has ceased to live among men”. (Annals, XV.74.)

Ergo, Nero was a religious figure as far as his subjects were concerned and he saw himself as a god.

 

[HarryStotle]

1. Nero died in 68 AD, the book of Revelation was written after that. Even IF it was written before 68 AD, 666 would have been a useless prophecy since it would only have a few years to even be translated, preached, or understood.

The point of the prophetic literature in Hebrew tradition is not so much a foretelling of future events, but a speaking of God’s word to the people in terms of what God wants them to do in their current time. John’s “prophecy” is precisely of this kind.

There is still a lot of dispute as to when the Book of Revelation was written. Modern scholars (Michael Barber, Brant Pitre and others) are increasingly convinced by a date during the reign of Nero. One important clue comes from the text of Revelation itself: “The seven hills are seven heads who are seven kings, ‘five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while’.” (Rev 17:10)

The “seven kings” or emperors starting from Julius Caesar (who founded imperial Rome) can be numbered as follows:

1. Julius Caesar 49-44 B. C.
2. Augustus 31 B.C.–A.D. 14
3. Tiberius 14-37 A.D.
4. Caligula (Gaius) 37-41 A.D.
5. Claudius 41-54 A.D.
6. Nero 54-68 A.D.
7. Galba 68-69 A.D.

Nero is the sixth emperor, reigning at the time Revelation was presumably written. The one after Nero, Galba, reigned only “a little while” – six months in fact, thus fitting very well the description in Rev 17:10

The “number of the Beast” also provides a clue because Hebrew letters had numeric values (like Roman Numerals, I = 1, V = 5, X = 10). The Greek form of “Neron Caesar” transliterated into Hebrew = 666, while the Latin form transliterated into Hebrew yields 616. Some early Christian translators altered the number in Revelation to 616 based upon the Latin form of Nero indicating that they understood the reference was intended to be to Nero, who demanded allegiance (the “mark”) and worship as a god.

The number 6 was a symbol of creation in the OT. Both man and beast were created on the 6th day, although man was made for the 7th (sheva שבע) - the day of heavenly rest. Three 6s are an exaggerated way to show a complete reversion to bestiality. The beast comes “from the waters” – Rome came from the Mediterranean Sea to the west. Kingdoms or kings were referred to as “beasts” in the OT, very pointedly in Daniel.

 

[HarryStotle]

Nero, the most hated enemy of the Church in the first century, killed both Christians and Jews in large numbers. He was a ferocious beast who used Christians as torches to light his evening parties. The early Jewish Christians would have understood the historical context from the Old Testament and the first reference to the number from 1 Kings 10:14. A reference to the amount – 666 talents – of tribute in gold paid to Solomon every year; an amount which is connected to both his abuse of his role as political ruler over Israel and also to his falling away from God owing to this vast wealth. Thus 666 has both political and religious significance.

Solomon, in his corruption, had broken all three of the admonitions stipulated by God against any king of Israel who was not to acquire many horses, wives or gold and silver. The admonition is found in Deuteronomy 17:16-17:

…he must not acquire many horses for himself, or return the people to Egypt in order to acquire more horses, since the Lord has said to you, “You must never return that way again.” And he must not acquire many wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; also silver and gold he must not acquire in great quantity for himself.


Solomon broke all three, and spectacularly so. Solomon had 666 talents of gold that came to him every year. Talents were a measure of weight and money. An ancient talent would weigh about 34.3 kilograms, which is equal to 1094 troy ounces. At about $1200 per troy ounce, a talent of gold today would be worth $1 312 800 and multiplied by 666 = $874 324 800 coming into Solomon’s treasury every year. More could be said about his many wives and horses. The number or sign of the beast was meant to be taken in that context – abuse of kingship. The most abusively wicked king of the time, Nero, used his power, as did Solomon, to maltreat those in subjugation to him.

John is clear in Rev 1:1 that he is speaking of events which “must soon take place” for ”the time is near.” John says he is “on the island called Patmos” (Rev 1:9) and is told to “…write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches.” The contents of the revelation concern “what you have seen, what is, and what is to take place after this” (Rev 1:19) and “what must soon take place” (Rev 22:6). The angel was very clear to John that he must “not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book” for “the time is near” (Rev 22:10) i.e., NOT far off in the future.

 

[HarryStotle]

Since the revelation to John was specifically written to the seven churches in Asia Minor and was to happen “very soon,” it is reasonable to assume that the imagery concerned the immediate situation of those churches at the time John lived. The “prophecy” (properly understood as God’s message or words) wouldn’t have been useless to the seven churches because it was meant to encourage those communities during the severe persecution that was happening to them, basically telling them to “keep the faith” because God will judge those committing the atrocities.

1. Nero never imposed a ‘mark’ that was required to buy or sell

The mark of the beast on the hand and forehead very likely referred to some kind of mark that allowed a person into the marketplace after they sprinkled incense on the statue of Caesar. In Ephesus, for example, during the time of Domitian, in order to buy and sell in the Agora (public marketplace) a person was required to burn incense to Caesar to acknowledge his deity. Those who complied were likely given some sort of ink stain mark that allowed them to enter the Agora. The “mark of the beast” very likely referred to this marking that kept Christians from fully participating in the local economy – “so that no one can buy or sell who does not have the mark” (Rev 13:17).

 

[CatholicSpirit]

Matthew 6:6 says to pray, God made all numbers in Existence, Seraphim are said in the Holy Bible to have 6 wings, there are 3 Major Archangels celebrated on Michaelmas…

Solution?: Let Jesus Christ and Saint Michael handle it, lots of ways to mess it up

 

[po18guy]

Him, we will easily spot. It is the others, less visible, that we should look out for.

 

[Luke-Suncook]

SNQE5yoldol 77y uyaerul tu

 

[Nelka]

1 Maccabees 1:57 On the fifteenth day of the month, Casleu, in the hundred and forty-fifth year, *king Antiochus set up the abominable idol of desolation upon the altar of God, and they built altars throughout all the cities of Juda round about:

 

[Nelka]

The statue of Jupiter Olympius, (Challoner) as Daniel (ix.) had foretold, as a figure of what antichrist would do, (Matthew xxiv.; Worthington) as well as the Romans, when they took Jerusalem.

 

[Luke-Suncook]

fvST dgldghk mndghtuuifgjhn

 

[Luke-Suncook]

qwrt WERY srtu ghklfh

 

[HarryStotle]

What debunks Nero as THE anti-Christ the most is that Nero died in AD68. Most New Testament authors prophesied about the anti-Christ AFTER Nero died. Even if they prophesied about NERO before he died, that means that they were all false prophets for prophesying about an anti-Christ "rising’ that had already risen, was already here, or dead.

I think you are conflating the “Beast” and the “anti-Christ.” I was speaking about the Beast associated with the number 666, not the anti-Christ. How do you know John meant them to be about the same person? The anti-Christ is not mentioned in Revelation. John wrote about the anti-Christ(s) in his letters and specifically said he/they would come out of the Christian community (“from us”) so John seems to agree that the anti-Christ(s) would (or at least could and even did – "they went out” past tense) come after he wrote Revelation and apparently after Nero died. AntiChrist(s) couldn’t have been Nero who wasn’t Christian.

Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:18-19)

It seems to me and others that if Revelation had been written after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, it would have a completely different tenor.

 

[Luke-Suncook]

adfhj,dghdgj yikduyk

 

[HarryStotle]

The OT the prophets most often ‘prophesied’ toward Israel as that was their main purpose. Even when they did prophesy toward Israel, they often did so concluding with prophecies concerning Israel at the consummation of the age…i.e. the end-times. The people who Prophesied in the New Testament including Christ, were under the New Covenant and the Holy Spirit had come. That’s a study in itself.

HarryStotle:

There is still a lot of dispute as to when the Book of Revelation was written. Modern scholars (Michael Barber, Brant Pitre and others) are increasingly convinced by a date during the reign of Nero. One important clue comes from the text of Revelation itself: “The seven hills are seven heads who are seven kings, ‘five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while’.” (Rev 17:10)

I threw that interpretation out the window several years ago. Why?

I know you don’t believe it but that interpretation makes JOHN a false prophet for prophesying about a beast with elements that had already come and gone.

Clearly, John was talking about a beast with elements that had come and gone because he was talking about the same beast (the fourth) that Daniel had “prophesied” about (Cf Dan 7)

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrible and dreadful and exceedingly strong; and it had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

“Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast,
there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,
which shall be different from all the kingdoms,
and it shall devour the whole earth,
and trample it down, and break it to pieces.
As for the ten horns,
out of this kingdom
ten kings shall arise,
and another shall arise after them;
he shall be different from the former ones,
and shall put down three kings.

The beast (Rome) changed after the third horn (king or ruler) into something different. Rome changed from republic to imperial, leaving the seven horns (emperors) starting with Julius Caesar.

John wasn’t so much prophesying in the way you suppose, he was explicating or explaining the current situation in light of what the prophet Daniel had already said. That doesn’t make John a false prophet, it makes him an evangelist bringing the good news that God’s word to Daniel was continuing to be fulfilled.

 

[Luke-Suncook]

SDG sadrth chjokkdr

 

[HarryStotle]

And the following is what I’m totally against…

HarryStotle:

The anti-Christ is not mentioned in Revelation. John wrote about the anti-Christ(s) in his letters and specifically said he/they would come out of the Christian community (“from us”)

I would like to see ANYONE, Catholic or Protestant, provide ONE VERSE that implies that!

I thought I provided the “ONE VERSE” from John himself…

Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:18-19)

Have you never heard of heresies or heretics?

 

[Luke-Suncook]

wwrtjhrfh rtyifg ghm,ghj

 

[HarryStotle]

That makes John a false prophet. What is it about Christians that just don’t see that? If an Atheist sees it and uses it to debunk prophets and the bible, I would think Christians would too.

You have no idea how incorrect that assessment is.

Well. That was easy.