800 martyrs were killed by the Ottomans.

[Sam_777]

"The killing of the martyrs by Ottoman troops, who launched a weeks-long siege of Otranto, a small port town at the most eastern tip of southern Italy, took place in 1480. When Otranto residents refused to surrender to the Ottoman army, the soldiers were ordered to massacre all males over the age of 15. Many were ordered to convert to Islam or die, but Blessed Antonio Primaldo, a tailor, spoke on the prisoners’ behalf. “We believe in Jesus Christ, Son of God, and for Jesus Christ we are ready to die,” Link.

https://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif Thank you Pope Francis for reminding everyone of those 800 martyrs, for reminding us of what would happen if Islam gets back its power, and also for reminding us of some facts:

1. Believe or die principle which cannot be from the merciful true GOD. :tsktsk:
2. YOU die for what I believe Islamic principle. :dts:
3. I die for what I believe Christian principle.:heaven:
4. The fact that Christianity is truly from the true GOD, that is why martyrs are ready to give their lives for what they believe opposite to Muhammed’s dogma which teaches that someone can lie in the battle to spare his life as mentioned in
   Sahih Muslim, Book 32, Number 6303,

 

[expounder]

How about the Catholic Church asking forgiveness for the thousands of Waldensians they murdered in Italy for not converting to Catholicism? For over 200 years they were persecuted.

 

[Sam_777]

How about the Catholic Church asking forgiveness for the thousands of Waldensians they murdered in Italy for not converting to Catholicism? For over 200 years they were persecuted.

The Catholic Church did not give those orders!, it was the Duke of Savoy NOT the Pope.

 

[expounder]

The Catholic Church did not give those orders!, it was the Duke of Savoy NOT the Pope.

How about the war on Iraq, by America, where they lied just so they could kill innocent Iraqi civillians?

How about the war against an impoverished nation, Afghanistan, described by George Bush as a “crusade” - where hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians were killed in a revenge war?

And the constant US drone attacks on supposedly “targeted individuals” where more civilians seem to be killed as a result?

How about the explicit and tacit support by Christians Tony Blair and his successors, and of course George Bush, for the state of Israel which continues to imprison an entire population?

You see, Christians and Jews may be able to hide their violence and killing behind uniforms, modern technology and national flags to give themselves a feeling of legitimacy. But a quick body count of wars conducted by non-Muslim nations or personalities over the past 50 years, will very quickly run into the tens of millions, if not more.

Western nations run on the back of oppressing other nations, supporting and bribing dictators when it suits you (Al-Yamama arms deal for instance) and then extracting whatever material benefits you can take to support the farce that you call a “civilised” nation.

 

[Sam_777]

How about the war on Iraq, by America, where they lied just so they could kill innocent Iraqi civillians?

America IS NOT a Christian country, America is a SECULAR country.

How about the war against an impoverished nation, Afghanistan, described by George Bush as a “crusade” - where hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians were killed in a revenge war?

Let the politician George Bush describe the war as he like, at the end the Christians know that it’s not true.

And the constant US drone attacks on supposedly “targeted individuals” where more civilians seem to be killed as a result?

Again US is not a Christian country, although there are many Christian living there but US and other western countries are purely secular ones.

How about the explicit and tacit support by Christians Tony Blair and his successors, and of course George Bush, for the state of Israel which continues to imprison an entire population?

The politicians are politicians they are not Popes.

You see, Christians and Jews may be able to hide their violence and killing behind uniforms, modern technology and national flags to give themselves a feeling of legitimacy.

If you want us to open the violence chapter, then the one who claims to be a prophet of God has a bloody violence history.

But a quick body count of wars conducted by non-Muslim nations or personalities over the past 50 years, will very quickly run into the tens of millions, if not more.

Shall we speak about ratios here, shall I remind you of the Jewish city which was 100% wiped out by Muhammed!

Western nations run on the back of oppressing other nations, supporting and bribing dictators when it suits you (Al-Yamama arms deal for instance) and then extracting whatever material benefits you can take to support the farce that you call a “civilised” nation.

Again Western nations ARE NOT Christian nations, they do not represent GOD’s well on this earth, on the contrary, Christians are suffering more and more nowadays.

 

[expounder]

Just to point out there is not one single country that can claim to be fully islamic because most don’t endorse the Shari’ah law and those which do, don’t have a caliphate to enforce it.

If you want us to open the violence chapter, then the one who claims to be a prophet of God has a bloody violence history.

We’ve seen all of it too through the Crusades.

Shall we speak about ratios here, shall I remind you of the Jewish city which was 100% wiped out by Muhammed!

• There was an agreement between the Muslims in Medina with other non-Muslim tribes in the area that is known as The Medina Charter. Please google about this agreement. It is a very famous declaration and is touted as the first human rights declaration known in human history.
• According to the agreement, anyone who attacks the Muslim ally would be like attacking the Muslim themselves, so the Muslims must take arms to protect their allies. And vice versa.
• However, during the third war (khandaq war), Banu Qurayzah conspired with the Quraish to attack the Muslims from behind the lines. The plan was leaked to the Prophet :saw: who was the commander in chief. Then a companion whose conversion was not known to the Quraish at the time then started the rumours that the Quraish would abandon Banu Qurayzah and vice versa to split any agreement between the two parties.

Quote:
“When the Banu Nadir had been banished, their leading chiefs, Huyayy Ibn Akhtab, Abu Rafi and Sallam Ibn Abi Al-Huquaiq had migrated to Khaibar and got recognised as leading chiefs. The battle of the Trenches was but the results of their machinations. They travelled far and near agitating the tribes till the whole country rose up in arms and attacked Medina in alliance with the Quraish. The Jews of the Banu Quraiza had a mind to stick to the treaty, but Huyayy Ibn Akhtab won them over with his guiles, promising to re-establish himself at Medina in case the Quraish abandoned the attack; and this promise he fulfilled.”
link: answering-christianity.com/umar/banu_quraiza_stuff.htm

• After the Quraish siege was over, then the Muslim army laid siege on Banu Qurayzah. Banu Qurayzah then agreed to surrender under the condition that they can choose their own candidate to judge the matter instead of be judged by the Prophet :saw:. The man chosen to judge the Bani Qurayzah was Sa’d ibn Mu’adh, leader of the Aws, a tribe which had always protected Bani Qurayzah in the past.
• During the trial, they admitted that they agreed to a proposal by the Quraish after they were influenced by their leaders to setup an ambush on the Muslims from behind, and for that the judge who was also proficient with the talmudic laws, judged them according to what was prescribed in Talmud, which is;

“When the Lord thy God hath delivered it unto thy hands, thou shalt smite every male therein with the edge of the sword: but the women, and the little ones and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself.” (Deuteronomy 20:12)

In essence, it wasn’t the Muslims who betrayed and committed genocide on Banu Qurayzah, but Bany Qurayzah betrayed the agreement with the Muslims, and they were punished according to their own Talmudic law.

Hypothetical question:
“But couldn’t the Prophet :saw: intervene and forgive them?”
answer:

1. The law of the land at the time for Banu Qurayzah was Talmudic laws. So to the Banu Qurayza tribe, since they didn’t recognize the Prophet :saw: as a prophet, they would see their Talmudic laws as the only legitimate laws that they must follow. And since the betrayal was judged according to the Talmudic laws, then from law technicality point of view, that makes the most sense to ensure the legitimacy of the punishment. Also, we also must remember that martial law is different from civil law.
2. The betrayal wasn’t directed towards the Prophet :saw: per se, but towards the Muslim ummah in Medina at the time. In case of forgiving, the Prophet :saw: did forgive several acts directed towards him by other perpetrators in many other cases in Medina. Even if he :saw: did forgive Banu Qurayza, that still won’t wash the crime away towards the other Muslims during the war. Plus, this was not the first time that a jew tribe betrayed the Muslim community in Medina.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I’m very happy about the canonization. I hope that this will give some courage to the numerous Christians today that are being persecuted by Muslims. We should all pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ who are suffering in this way.

 

[MaryT777]

I’m very happy about the canonization. I hope that this will give some courage to the numerous Christians today that are being persecuted by Muslims. We should all pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ who are suffering in this way.

Amen.

 

[chero23]

How about the war on Iraq, by America, where they lied just so they could kill innocent Iraqi civillians?

How about the war against an impoverished nation, Afghanistan, described by George Bush as a “crusade” - where hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians were killed in a revenge war?

And the constant US drone attacks on supposedly “targeted individuals” where more civilians seem to be killed as a result?

How about the explicit and tacit support by Christians Tony Blair and his successors, and of course George Bush, for the state of Israel which continues to imprison an entire population?

You see, Christians and Jews may be able to hide their violence and killing behind uniforms, modern technology and national flags to give themselves a feeling of legitimacy. But a quick body count of wars conducted by non-Muslim nations or personalities over the past 50 years, will very quickly run into the tens of millions, if not more.

Western nations run on the back of oppressing other nations, supporting and bribing dictators when it suits you (Al-Yamama arms deal for instance) and then extracting whatever material benefits you can take to support the farce that you call a “civilised” nation.

You do know that the USA is not a catholic nation right? The USA went after Iraq and Afghanistan under the watch of George w. Bush. Who by the way is a Methodist not a catholic. So don’t be saying that all Christians are catholic bc their not.

 

[expounder]

You do know that the USA is not a catholic nation right? The USA went after Iraq and Afghanistan under the watch of George w. Bush. Who by the way is a Methodist not a catholic. So don’t be saying that all Christians are catholic bc their not.

A Christian is a Christian same way as all the sects of Islam are generalised in the media and other mediums…

 

[chero23]

A Christian is a Christian same way as all the sects of Islam are generalised in the media and other mediums…

In that sense you are correct, the media has portrayed the Muslim as hateful, but once again that’s the media. Look the Catholic Church was not in favor of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe that it was under the papacy of jpii that it happened.

Having said that, I do believe you have to be able to distinguish that a catholic and a Methodist are both Christians but have different views. You know that, so you can explain that. Like us we know that not all Muslims are not bad, we can do the same and explain.

 

[robwar]

How about the Catholic Church asking forgiveness for the thousands of Waldensians they murdered in Italy for not converting to Catholicism? For over 200 years they were persecuted.

That issue has nothing to do with this thread, and it was not the Pope that have that order.

 

[robwar]

A Christian is a Christian same way as all the sects of Islam are generalised in the media and other mediums…

Then a Muslim is a Muslim and there are not differences?

 

[robwar]

"The killing of the martyrs by Ottoman troops, who launched a weeks-long siege of Otranto, a small port town at the most eastern tip of southern Italy, took place in 1480. When Otranto residents refused to surrender to the Ottoman army, the soldiers were ordered to massacre all males over the age of 15. Many were ordered to convert to Islam or die, but Blessed Antonio Primaldo, a tailor, spoke on the prisoners’ behalf. “We believe in Jesus Christ, Son of God, and for Jesus Christ we are ready to die,” Link.

https://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif Thank you Pope Francis for reminding everyone of those 800 martyrs, for reminding us of what would happen if Islam gets back its power, and also for reminding us of some facts:

1. Believe or die principle which cannot be from the merciful true GOD. :tsktsk:
2. YOU die for what I believe Islamic principle. :dts:
3. I die for what I believe Christian principle.:heaven:
4. The fact that Christianity is truly from the true GOD, that is why martyrs are ready to give their lives for what they believe opposite to Muhammed’s dogma which teaches that someone can lie in the battle to spare his life as mentioned in Sahih Muslim, Book 32, Number 6303,

As always Sam, thanks for your post!

 

[Classicist]

That issue has nothing to do with this thread, and it was not the Pope that have that order.

So are the imams and pashas equivalent in your mind? A religious leader and a military commander are not the same, and yet do not make the distinction here.

Gedik Ahmed, the pasha who ordered the martyrdom, was no Imam but a secular general. We say that the 800 martyrs were killed for their faith by “Islam” or by “Muslims”.

If we are going to be honest, either separate Gedik Ahmed from Islam generally, as a secular person with his own initiative, or unite the secular kings & bad, bloodthirsty crusaders with the Popes. We cannot have one or the other. We must be consistent.

Saint-Martyrs of Otranto, pray for us all, especially that Muslims will submit to Christ!

 

[mymamamary]

How about the war on Iraq, by America, where they lied just so they could kill innocent Iraqi civillians?

How about the war against an impoverished nation, Afghanistan, described by George Bush as a “crusade” - where hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians were killed in a revenge war?

And the constant US drone attacks on supposedly “targeted individuals” where more civilians seem to be killed as a result?

How about the explicit and tacit support by Christians Tony Blair and his successors, and of course George Bush, for the state of Israel which continues to imprison an entire population?

You see, Christians and Jews may be able to hide their violence and killing behind uniforms, modern technology and national flags to give themselves a feeling of legitimacy. But a quick body count of wars conducted by non-Muslim nations or personalities over the past 50 years, will very quickly run into the tens of millions, if not more.

Western nations run on the back of oppressing other nations, supporting and bribing dictators when it suits you (Al-Yamama arms deal for instance) and then extracting whatever material benefits you can take to support the farce that you call a “civilised” nation.

**
I think you forget how Christians were/are treated in the Middle East. They are systematically killed and persecuted. The faithful inside the Churches were killed and the Churches became mosques. What about how Christians were butchered in the middle ages? Not all of Islam is like this, but sometimes, one has to “face the music” of their gory history. Christians are killed in countries all over the world, however no one sheds a tear for them. **

 

[Holly3278]

How about the war on Iraq, by America, where they lied just so they could kill innocent Iraqi civillians?

How about the war against an impoverished nation, Afghanistan, described by George Bush as a “crusade” - where hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians were killed in a revenge war?

And the constant US drone attacks on supposedly “targeted individuals” where more civilians seem to be killed as a result?

How about the explicit and tacit support by Christians Tony Blair and his successors, and of course George Bush, for the state of Israel which continues to imprison an entire population?

You see, Christians and Jews may be able to hide their violence and killing behind uniforms, modern technology and national flags to give themselves a feeling of legitimacy. But a quick body count of wars conducted by non-Muslim nations or personalities over the past 50 years, will very quickly run into the tens of millions, if not more.

Western nations run on the back of oppressing other nations, supporting and bribing dictators when it suits you (Al-Yamama arms deal for instance) and then extracting whatever material benefits you can take to support the farce that you call a “civilised” nation.

Did you know that Blessed Pope John Paul II urged against war in Iraq? Its true. See this link:

catholicism.about.com/od/thechurchintheworld/f/popes_on_iraq.htm

As for the war in Afghanistan, the United States went to war in Afghanistan because the Taliban was entrenched there and Al Qaeda was training a lot of terrorists in Afghanistan. Al Qaeda attacked the United States. Yes, Muslims attacked the United States. Are you going to say that the United States had no right to defend itself against Al Qaeda Muslims???

 

[Fairwinds]

The Catholic Church did not give those orders!, it was the Duke of Savoy NOT the Pope.

newadvent.org/cathen/15527b.htm

This period of peace was followed in 1488 by a crusade summoned by Innocent VIII against the Waldenses. The war did not succeed in stamping them out.

 

[MaryT777]

A Christian is a Christian same way as all the sects of Islam are generalised in the media and other mediums…

Really? You need to preach that to all the Christians that tell us we Catholics are NOT Christians and are damned to hell.

What is your purpose here? I hope it’s not to whine and complain about Catholicism
because so far it seems as such.

May want to take up your issues with media presentation with the media.

 

[jakasaki]

Really? You need to preach that to all the Christians that tell us we Catholics are NOT Christians and are damned to hell.

What is your purpose here? I hope it’s not to whine and complain about Catholicism
because so far it seems as such.

May want to take up your issues with media presentation with the media.

Calm down Mary ~

I don’t recall member expounder said anything about …“Catholics are NOT Christians and are damned to hell”