A Book of Mormon tour

[AMDGtoo]

But again I have to ask, what should the missionaries do or say instead?

Err–somehow I feel it would be more honest not to proselytize (or as one member of this forum said “sheep steal”). I mean, shouldn’t respect for one another’s beliefs (creeds) be a two-way street?

 

[majick275]

I’m not asking you to agree with me or any other religion for that matter. I’m just asking for some respect for my beliefs. I’m not going to tell you what you believe, don’t try to tell me or anyone else what I believe.

I’m not here to proselyte. I’m here because I feel that what’s being said here about my beliefs and others, is not always true and not constructive in any way. Why does this forum about Non-Catholic Religions exist? I doubt it’s meant for bashing other religions and beliefs.

Thanks,

Jacob

you still don’t get it. your canonized scriptures (JS-H in the PoGP) call our creeds an ABOMINATION to God!!! how is that respectful? your missionaries try and teach that our unbroken line of priests from the time of Christ cannot baptize or perform any other valid sacraments and that our church has apostatized from Christ teachings. if that’s not “bashing” i don’t know what is. i find your attitude very hypocritical in this regard. I also have to challenge your assertion about why you are here. if your prime interest is in correcting facts just for the sake of accuracy then your time would be much better spent correcting Ed Decker or the legion of “ant-mormons” who spread outright lies about the LDS. OR you might find it even more constructive to go and correct the LDS fundamentalists or the CoC who believe in the BoM but appear to have apostatized from the LDS church and are telling a very different tale about LDS history to justify their position. the fact that you are HERE really indicates a missionary intent. we know the truth about the LDS church here. i wonder if the same is true for you. I’m sure you THINK so but as that which isn’t “faith promoting” is discarded many mormons don’t seem to research their own faith or christianity either. i’m sure you consider only that which promotes mormonism to be “constructive”. showing people the true faith and pointing out why heresies are just that is very constructive in my opinion.

 

[rmcmullan]

Err–somehow I feel it would be more honest not to proselytize (or as one member of this forum said “sheep steal”). I mean, shouldn’t respect for one another’s beliefs (creeds) be a two-way street?

Then what are we going to do about this:

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 ¶Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[AMDGtoo]

I’m not going to even try to multi-quote, but you asked what we are going to do about Jesus command to teach all nations, well there is a difference between evangelization and proselytizing. There is a difference in teaching nations that do not know Jesus or in just recognizing someone already in Jesus’ flock and plain “sheep stealing”.

 

[PaulDupre]

rmcmullen:

Then what are we going to do about this:

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 ¶Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The “nations” that Jesus sent the apostles to were non-Christians and therefore needed to be discipled and baptized. The CC still sends missionaries to evangelize and baptize non-Christians and to reclaim those who have fallen away. My non-Christian adult son was converted and baptized this year.

 

[hosemonkey]

Then what are we going to do about this:

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 ¶Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Please notice that Jesus DID NOT say, “All this is only temporary, because this is the first time that I have done this, and it may not be perfect, so you may have wait around for Joseph Smith to correct My mistakes and finally get it right.” He did not say that it would take an upstate New York con-artist to finish what He had started. He did NOT say that a home-grown american cult would re-establish the Church that He Himself founded and would watch over and teach until the end of time.

The Catholic Church teaches Truth. mormons sell snake-oil.

 

[RC_Matt]

Please notice that Jesus DID NOT say, “All this is only temporary, because this is the first time that I have done this, and it may not be perfect, so you may have wait around for Joseph Smith to correct My mistakes and finally get it right.” He did not say that it would take an upstate New York con-artist to finish what He had started. He did NOT say that a home-grown american cult would re-establish the Church that He Himself founded and would watch over and teach until the end of time.

The Catholic Church teaches Truth. mormons sell snake-oil.

Jesus was speaking of spreading HIS contemporaneous Gospel (DUH); NOT Joseph Smith’s 1830 Book of Mormon nor its subsequent companion volumes. In fact, I could start my own religion, write my own BOM (The Book of Matt) and use the same nonsensical argument.

And it came to pass that Matt revealed unto the people that they shall give unto Matt all their money and cool stuff… (BOM 1:1)

 

[hosemonkey]

Jesus was speaking of spreading HIS contemporaneous Gospel (DUH); NOT Joseph Smith’s 1830 Book of Mormon nor its subsequent companion volumes. In fact, I could start my own religion, write my own BOM (The Book of Matt) and use the same nonsensical argument.

And it came to pass that Matt revealed unto the people that they shall give unto Matt all their money and cool stuff… (BOM 1:1)

Matt, I think that you are on to something. We’ll call it The Book of Matt (or we could call it The Book of Monkey!) Monkeyism, that’s it!! But I gotta tell ya, we have to leave out all that polygamy stuff, my wife will never go for it, and the whole god thing…But let’s be sure and leave in all the tithing and stuff, because, you know, we wanta make sure that we don’t have to work. And let’s bump it up to 15%, gas is gettin’ expensive.

You know, I have trouble just keeping myself straight, much less running a whole planet. And can you imagine keeping order among THOUSANDS of wives? Nah, let’s just forget it. I really don’t think that these mormons have thought this whole thing through.

 

[why_me]

You want to talk respect? Okay, Jacob, I’ll make you a deal:

You get the LDS Church to remove from the PofGP and from the missionary discussions the passage that calls my creed (The Nicene Creed) “an abomination”* and depicts me (a professor of that creed) as “corrupt”**, and I promise I will never criticize Mormonism again.

• Abomination: A thing that is filthy, hateful and disgusting.

** Corrupt: morally degenerate and perverted : depraved

Deal or no deal?

Here is the problem as I see it Paul. At the time of JS would god find the creeds that were in place at that time an abomination? I think that this is the question that needs to be debated.

The Christian church had been involved in much unrighteousness in the past. I am not sure if God was pleased with the churches that professed his name and the name of his son.

But what do you think?

 

[why_me]

I’m not going to even try to multi-quote, but you asked what we are going to do about Jesus command to teach all nations, well there is a difference between evangelization and proselytizing. There is a difference in teaching nations that do not know Jesus or in just recognizing someone already in Jesus’ flock and plain “sheep stealing”.

Here is the problem. How are the lds missionaries to know who is a christian and who isn’t? They knock on all doors to proclaim the name of Jesus and his church. They do not search out catholics or protestants. They just knock on doors.

In the early days of the christian church it was the same. Christ organized the seventy and sent them out to evangelize the communities. Of course at that time much was virgin landscape, not many christians, but still they did not ask if people were christian before practicing evangelization. They just did it.

 

[BartBurk]

Here is the problem. How are the lds missionaries to know who is a christian and who isn’t? They knock on all doors to proclaim the name of Jesus and his church. They do not search out catholics or protestants. They just knock on doors.

In the early days of the christian church it was the same. Christ organized the seventy and sent them out to evangelize the communities. Of course at that time much was virgin landscape, not many christians, but still they did not ask if people were christian before practicing evangelization. They just did it.

They can know by asking. Knock on their door, ask if they are already attending a Christian church and if they say “Yes”, move on. If they want to leave a card with the Articles of Faith, fine. Concentrate on the 50% who are not attending a church.

 

[ibkc]

Here is the problem as I see it Paul. At the time of JS would god find the creeds that were in place at that time an abomination? I think that this is the question that needs to be debated.

The Christian church had been involved in much unrighteousness in the past. I am not sure if God was pleased with the churches that professed his name and the name of his son.

But what do you think?

I think that the behavior of individuals is a completely different thing than a creed. A creed is a statement of belief. Bad behavior on the part of individuals does not invalidate a creed.

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfilment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

I would be very interested to hear what parts of this creed are “abominable” to Mormons. Especially why me.

 

[why_me]

They can know by asking. Knock on their door, ask if they are already attending a Christian church and if they say “Yes”, move on. If they want to leave a card with the Articles of Faith, fine. Concentrate on the 50% who are not attending a church.

I don’t think that the lds missionaries force themselves through the door. They must be let in. Let me put it this way: The lds missionaries get a bad rap on this forum. I hear no complaints about the protestant TV evangelization that one can see every day on the TV screen. Also, I hear no complaints about EWTN from catholics since this program is also about evangelization. Each church has its own system.

In the Vatican newpaper last week there was an interesting article on catholic evangelization. Here is a link to the newspaper but unfortunately not the article. This is a great newspaper. Have you heard of it?

vatican.va/news_services/or/home_ita.html

 

[BartBurk]

I don’t think that the lds missionaries force themselves through the door. They must be let in. Let me put it this way: The lds missionaries get a bad rap on this forum. I hear no complaints about the protestant TV evangelization that one can see every day on the TV screen. Also, I hear no complaints about EWTN from catholics since this program is also about evangelization. Each church has its own system.

In the Vatican newpaper last week there was an interesting article on catholic evangelization. Here is a link to the newspaper but unfortunately not the article. This is a great newspaper. Have you heard of it?

vatican.va/news_services/or/home_ita.html

And the Mormons have BYU-TV. Maybe they should use that as their evangelization tool rather than door-to-door missionary work. The Mormon missionaries are taught ways to maneuver themselves into a house. I was taught that when a person opened a door I should place myself in a position so the person on the other side would have a hard time closing it without listening to my spiel. With the internet and all of the other ways Mormons can spread their message these days, there is no reason to go door-to-door trying to convert people who are already attending a Christian church.

 

[majick275]

Here is the problem as I see it Paul. At the time of JS would god find the creeds that were in place at that time an abomination? I think that this is the question that needs to be debated.

The Christian church had been involved in much unrighteousness in the past. I am not sure if God was pleased with the churches that professed his name and the name of his son.

But what do you think?

how are the two related? he specifically focused on the creeds not the actions of the individual christians. we know those creeds and still profess them today. how are thy an abomination?

if your assertion were true then the mormon church would be a big problem as their involvement in unrighteousness at that time is severe.

 

[PaulDupre]

Here is the problem as I see it Paul. At the time of JS would god find the creeds that were in place at that time an abomination? I think that this is the question that needs to be debated.

The creeds that were professed then are the same ones that are professed now, primarily the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed. That is the one professed by the Catholic, Orthodox and mainstream Protestant churches. So which part of the Nicene Creed is an abomination?

Abomination: A thing that is hateful, loathsome and disgusting.

The Christian church had been involved in much unrighteousness in the past. I am not sure if God was pleased with the churches that professed his name and the name of his son.

Individuals in the church have sinned, just as individual Mormons have sinned. That has no bearing on the truthfulness of the creed or the church. You don’t judge the effectiveness of a medicine by those who refuse to take it.

Again, which part(s) of the Nicene Creed are an abomination?

 

[BartBurk]

how are the two related? he specifically focused on the creeds not the actions of the individual christians. we know those creeds and still profess them today. how are thy an abomination?

if your assertion were true then the mormon church would be a big problem as their involvement in unrighteousness at that time is severe.

As far as I can tell, this is the part Mormons consider an abomination:

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.

They don’t agree that Jesus has always been God from all eternity. For that matter, they don’t seem to believe the Father has always been God either. They also don’t believe that God is maker of heaven and earth and all that is seen and unseen. They believe God organized the universe from pre-existing matter which He didn’t create.

 

[Strevel]

Are you kidding?? The entire structure of the missionary discussions is a textbook sales pitch, complete with visual aids.

During the discussions, the missionaries are trained ask the investigator certain questions they have memorized, designed to elicit a “yes” response, as in:

“Mr. Jones, if you knew that you could have your family at your side in the eternities with perfect happiness and well-being, would that be a good thing?”

or…

“Mr. Jones, if you could know for sure exactly what God wants for you and exactly how he plans to make you happy forever, would that be a good thing?”

These questions, to an ordinary person who is not forewarned against these techniques, can only be answered “yes”. Every salesman knows that the more times a customer can be manipulated into saying “yes”, the nearer he is to closing the sale.

Also, the salesman knows that the more times a customer will perform a task that the salesman asks him to do (fill out a form, look at a catalog, read a quote), the more likely the customer is to accept the invitation to close the deal.

The missionary discussions are full of little tasks (read this passage, pray this prayer, read the Book of Mormon, ask God if what we are telling you is true) to get the contact to acquiesce to the missionary’s will and lead the contact to surrender his resistance to the missionary’s challenge to baptism.

This is the technique used by LDS missionaries, and by AmWay reps, car salesmen and everyone else trying to sell you something.

Why else do you think LDS missionaries are so much in demand as salesmen? They already have the technique down pat!

Paul (a former Mormon missionary)

Paul,
Logic and reason have nothing to do with…hahahaha. Good points and they are so true!

Don, …a former Mormon Missionary that returned to the warmth of a loving mother, The Catholic Church. Pax Vobiscum!

 

[why_me]

And the Mormons have BYU-TV. Maybe they should use that as their evangelization tool rather than door-to-door missionary work. The Mormon missionaries are taught ways to maneuver themselves into a house. I was taught that when a person opened a door I should place myself in a position so the person on the other side would have a hard time closing it without listening to my spiel. With the internet and all of the other ways Mormons can spread their message these days, there is no reason to go door-to-door trying to convert people who are already attending a Christian church.

I don’t think that mormon missionaries are taught such things nowadays and I have a hard time believing that it was done in the past. In the new testament, christ organized the seventy to preach the gospel two by two. The lds are just following what christ taught. And like I said, those that are happy in their churches just need to say so. No problem for the missionaries.

 

[why_me]

how are the two related? he specifically focused on the creeds not the actions of the individual christians. we know those creeds and still profess them today. how are thy an abomination?

if your assertion were true then the mormon church would be a big problem as their involvement in unrighteousness at that time is severe.

The action of the membership has much do with the creeds. If a church loses focus and becomes divorced from the words of christ, I am sure that it becomes an abomination. I cannot separate the actions of a church’s membership with the creed. It seems to me that most christian churches at the time of JS had blood on their hands.