A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[Prodigal_Son1]

You can’t take 7:21 and leave the rest behind. Jesus is speaking of false prophets!

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

**Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? **

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You make a very good point that I was clumsily trying to make.

One verse does not give us the context. You must read scriptures in light of scriptures. To understand a verse, you must read the passage. To understand the passage, you must read the chapter. To understand the chapter, you must read the book it’s in. To understand the book, you must read the testament it’s in. To understand the New Testament, you must read the Old Testament. The Olf foretells the New and the New fulfills the Old.

 

[Third_Day]

=rev kevin;6202706]Jesus said he would not lose even one person whom the Father had given him. Thus, anyone who makes a sincere commitment to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior is secure in God’s promise of eternal life

.
A “sincere commitment” is all that is necessary? Jesus said to take up your cross daily. Jesus was asked “what must I do to have eternal life?”. Jesus said to “keep the commandments”. Jesus said to be baptized. I don’t see why you would want to take one passage and build your entire theology around that . Why not take ALL of scripture?

Christ will not let his people be overcome by Satan and lose their salvation. This is in reference to John 6:39 about salvation.

Don’t we have free will to reject His saving grace? How can you have free will and be absolutely assured of salvation.?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Show your children what Paul said
“but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” 1 Cor 9:27

Putting this verse in context to the earlier words in the chapter where he also wrote:

For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

And those words are looking back into ealier words where he wrote:

If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

Paul knows that he is running a race like an athelete, the race he is running is preaching the Gospel and harvesting souls for Christ. The prize to win is an incorruptible crown in heaven similair to Jesus’s challenge to “lay up your treasures in heaven”. Knowing that he was called to preach the gospel and the rewards from his calling are in heaven, Paul becomes a servant to all men, beats his body into subjection, put’s himself under all men, so that the gospel isn’t hindered and he’s then not disqualified to win the prize. It is not about loosing one’s salvation, rather it’s about running the race to win heavenly rewards!

 

[rev_kevin]

.
A “sincere commitment” is all that is necessary? Jesus said to take up your cross daily. Jesus was asked “what must I do to have eternal life?”. Jesus said to “keep the commandments”. Jesus said to be baptized. I don’t see why you would want to take one passage and build your entire theology around that . Why not take ALL of scripture?

Don’t we have free will to reject His saving grace? How can you have free will and be absolutely assured of salvation.?

When you make a sincere commitment isn’t all the rest of what you say included in that.
I used only one as a example, I didn’t think I had to write every single one out and I don’t base my entire theology around that one passage.
Yes we do have free will it up to us to accept his gift of salvation and once we accept it he won’t let us loose it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

When you make a sincere commitment isn’t all the rest of what you say included in that.
I used only one as a example, I didn’t think I had to write every single one out and I don’t base my entire theology around that one passage.
Yes we do have free will it up to us to accept his gift of salvation and once we accept it he won’t let us loose it.

Ok, speaking in these terms, I’ll ask again. A person believes in Christ and lives a Christian life for a few years, but for whatever reason he falls back into a life of sin, can that person lose their salvation?

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:16-29
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Paul in many prior chapters emphasized to the Hebrews the new and better covenant laid by Christ Jesus, the Heavenly High Priest. He than warns them as a result of Christ’s work on the heavenly altar, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin under the old covenant priesthood. If the Jew, after been enlightened to the new and better covenant laid by Christ, sinned wilfully, meaning returned to the old covenant system of animal sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, then there only remained for him in the old system the sacrifice for sins that did not justify. He had trampled on the blood of Christ by turning from the santification it provides to all mankind, called Christ’s sacrifice unworthy to take away his sin, and his only hope is a certain fiery judgement.

Anyone who forsakes Christ, unbelieving Jew or Gentile remains under his wrath. However, In Hebrews 10, Paul is not writing about Gentile believers. Instead if the enlightened Jew returns from the new covenant back to the old ceremonial laws and preisthood practices, there remains no salvation in the old covenant rather a fiery judgement.

 

[Xavierlives]

The simple question is, do you believe that once a person believes they cannot fall from grace? For example a person believes Christ died for our salvation but for whatever reason continues in a life of sins, will that person receive salvation? One can believe and steal, commit adultery, lie, etc. and still go to heaven?

That’s the way Catholics interpret once saved always saved.

Now, I’ve heard it said, those who do that weren’t really saved to begin with. Where’s the salvation assurance? A person is saved, by the standards you provide, and sins, are they to think they weren’t really saved to begin with? We are all human and prone to fall once in awhile. Some falls are more serious than others.

I know you’ve heard the term ‘backsliding’, what is your view of that?

Ok. I think this is your post, that I have failed to address.

The comparison I make in the orginal is the concept of a contract. I find it to be an acceptable one for several reasons:

1. A breach by one party does not end the contract. Only through action by the non-breaching party can the contract end.

HERE COMES A LITTLE STORY, YOU CAN READ IT OR GO TO “Continued reading”

Lets say I have a deal with you. I am leasing your Super-J Copier for 5 years with the option to renew for another 5 years. In the deal I am paying 1 cent a copy (but the going rate is half a cent a copy. Personally you made the deal because the contract terminates if my Super-J croaks. You know from past performance of the Super-I, the machine dies after 2 years. Well, everything is chugging along at year 2. You are making decent money off of me. Year 5 rolls around and I am starting to come out on the winning end. Copies are now going for 5 cents a copy. I renew my contract. My Super-J is going strong. Year 7 and I am absolutely making a killing. Copies are 10 cents a copy and I am thinking about opening a copy shop. You are thinking about ways you can breach to get out from under this deal because you are losing money hand over fist on our deal. You call me up and say, “I’m done with this deal.” Am I going to say, “oh. Okay. thanks” NOPE. I am going to ride that machine for another 3 years. Copies can be 25 cents a copy when I am done and I will be the copy genius of the century.

Continued reading
So. You might be asking yourself at this point, what is his point. My point is, there is nothing a breaching party can do (short of bankruptcy) that can make me stop the deal.

There is nothing you can do that will make God quit the deal he made with you. (so ask the next logical question…)

1. What is the difference in sin? Is there one? What does it mean to sin? When Jesus healed the blind man in John 9, he said, “this man hasn’t sinned.” WHOA! This is huge. I thought Jesus was the only sinless man. How do we account for this? If sin separates us from God and Jesus says this man (and his parents did not sin) then we have 3 instant winners!

No. Jesus knows exactly what he is talking about. When Jesus says, this man hasn’t sinned, he isn’t saying “this mans is without sin” he is saying “this man’s sin has not caused his blindness” The man had sin. For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. We need to use our noggins and understand.

1. What about all the people Jesus interacted with and he made the statement “go and sin no more.” Is Jesus expecting these people to complete their lives sinfree?

No. Jesus knows mankind sins. He is saying, don’t live in sin. This is why homosexuality is abhorant to God. It is a life of sin. Drug abuse… life of sin. Living out of wedlock… life of sin.

So, to get to your questions. I think we need forgiveness for our sins. All sins. But God does not condemn me for telling a lie. He condemns me for living in lies. He forgives all sins, but when I ask for forgiveness, he expects I will not return to my sin. Because, like a dog that returns to its vomit, so does a fool repeat his folly. He wants us to be smart. Leave our sin behind. If we do not leave our sin, then we have missed Christ’s message have we not? Can I be a Christian if I do not abandon sin?

What did the prodigal son do? He abandoned sin. He was wading in sin when he figured it out: “I’m not supposed to be living this way! I need to return to my father and repent!” A person who believes in OSAS believes no matter how bad it might get, if they get that epiphany that they need to get out of this sin, they need only return to the Father and repent.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Paul in many prior chapters emphasized to the Hebrews the new and better covenant laid by Christ Jesus, the Heavenly High Priest. He than warns them as a result of Christ’s work on the heavenly altar, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin under the old covenant priesthood. If the Jew, after been enlightened to the new and better covenant laid by Christ, sinned wilfully, meaning returned to the old covenant system of animal sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, then there only remained for him in the old system the sacrifice for sins that did not justify. He had trampled on the blood of Christ by turning from the santification it provides to all mankind, called Christ’s sacrifice unworthy to take away his sin, and his only hope is a certain fiery judgement.

So then, you agree this is an example of one losing their salvation?

 

[rev_kevin]

Ok, speaking in these terms, I’ll ask again. A person believes in Christ and lives a Christian life for a few years, but for whatever reason he falls back into a life of sin, can that person lose their salvation?

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

No. I don’t think God gives us salvation and then takes it away from us. Once you accept his gift of salvation its there always. You may fall away from God but you will never loose your salvation. If your child does something wrong do you take your love away from them. no you will always love them no matter what. The same for God, once you accept his gift of salvation he will never take that away from you because he loves you.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Ok. I think this is your post, that I have failed to address.

The comparison I make in the orginal is the concept of a contract. I find it to be an acceptable one for several reasons:

1. A breach by one party does not end the contract. Only through action by the non-breaching party can the contract end.

HERE COMES A LITTLE STORY, YOU CAN READ IT OR GO TO “Continued reading”

Lets say I have a deal with you. I am leasing your Super-J Copier for 5 years with the option to renew for another 5 years. In the deal I am paying 1 cent a copy (but the going rate is half a cent a copy. Personally you made the deal because the contract terminates if my Super-J croaks. You know from past performance of the Super-I, the machine dies after 2 years. Well, everything is chugging along at year 2. You are making decent money off of me. Year 5 rolls around and I am starting to come out on the winning end. Copies are now going for 5 cents a copy. I renew my contract. My Super-J is going strong. Year 7 and I am absolutely making a killing. Copies are 10 cents a copy and I am thinking about opening a copy shop. You are thinking about ways you can breach to get out from under this deal because you are losing money hand over fist on our deal. You call me up and say, “I’m done with this deal.” Am I going to say, “oh. Okay. thanks” NOPE. I am going to ride that machine for another 3 years. Copies can be 25 cents a copy when I am done and I will be the copy genius of the century.

Continued reading
So. You might be asking yourself at this point, what is his point. My point is, there is nothing a breaching party can do (short of bankruptcy) that can make me stop the deal.

There is nothing you can do that will make God quit the deal he made with you. (so ask the next logical question…)

1. What is the difference in sin? Is there one? What does it mean to sin? When Jesus healed the blind man in John 9, he said, “this man hasn’t sinned.” WHOA! This is huge. I thought Jesus was the only sinless man. How do we account for this? If sin separates us from God and Jesus says this man (and his parents did not sin) then we have 3 instant winners!

No. Jesus knows exactly what he is talking about. When Jesus says, this man hasn’t sinned, he isn’t saying “this mans is without sin” he is saying “this man’s sin has not caused his blindness” The man had sin. For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. We need to use our noggins and understand.

1. What about all the people Jesus interacted with and he made the statement “go and sin no more.” Is Jesus expecting these people to complete their lives sinfree?

No. Jesus knows mankind sins. He is saying, don’t live in sin. This is why homosexuality is abhorant to God. It is a life of sin. Drug abuse… life of sin. Living out of wedlock… life of sin.

So, to get to your questions. I think we need forgiveness for our sins. All sins. But God does not condemn me for telling a lie. He condemns me for living in lies. He forgives all sins, but when I ask for forgiveness, he expects I will not return to my sin. Because, like a dog that returns to its vomit, so does a fool repeat his folly. He wants us to be smart. Leave our sin behind. If we do not leave our sin, then we have missed Christ’s message have we not? Can I be a Christian if I do not abandon sin?

What did the prodigal son do? He abandoned sin. He was wading in sin when he figured it out: “I’m not supposed to be living this way! I need to return to my father and repent!” A person who believes in OSAS believes no matter how bad it might get, if they get that epiphany that they need to get out of this sin, they need only return to the Father and repent.

Ok, I understand the point, but feel you still didn’t answer the question. A person lives a Christian life and falls away into sin again and dies without repentance, or before they have the opportunity to return to the Father. Do you say that person was never saved to begin with? Do you say that person can lose their salvation?

By the way, I don’t see covenant and contract as the same. I only saw your point after the story…

 

[Rocket_Man]

So then, you agree this is an example of one losing their salvation?

It has nothing do with having and then losing salvation.

 

[Xavierlives]

Great that you use John 3:16 for your children. Do you also use John 3:20-21?

For ever one who DOES evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his DEEDS should be exposed. But he who DOES what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his DEEDS have been wrought in God"

Do you also use 1 John 3:19–24?

“ Now this is how we shall know that we belong to the truth and reassure our hearts before him in whatever our hearts condemn, for God is greater than our hearts and knows everything. Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in God and receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us. Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them"

Show your children what Paul said
“but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” 1 Cor 9:27

I was being friendly and mentioning John 3:16 as to a scripture which a child can understand absolute assurance of salvation.

If you have a point to your scriptures, then make them instead of having me wake my children to see what your point is.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No. I don’t think God gives us salvation and then takes it away from us. Once you accept his gift of salvation its there always. You may fall away from God but you will never loose your salvation. If your child does something wrong do you take your love away from them. no you will always love them no matter what. The same for God, once you accept his gift of salvation he will never take that away from you because he loves you.

That’s a very difficult concept to accept rev. I mean, it seems if that’s a teaching, there are many temptations to pull people back into sin. And what’s to get them back on track if they’re weak? It could cause some to take God’s love for granted.

 

[Xavierlives]

You can’t take 7:21 and leave the rest behind. Jesus is speaking of false prophets!

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

**Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? **

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Silly you, using the Bible in context!

 

[Xavierlives]

Hebrews 10:16-29
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Paul in many prior chapters emphasized to the Hebrews the new and better covenant laid by Christ Jesus, the Heavenly High Priest. He than warns them as a result of Christ’s work on the heavenly altar, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin under the old covenant priesthood. If the Jew, after been enlightened to the new and better covenant laid by Christ, sinned wilfully, meaning returned to the old covenant system of animal sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, then there only remained for him in the old system the sacrifice for sins that did not justify. He had trampled on the blood of Christ by turning from the santification it provides to all mankind, called Christ’s sacrifice unworthy to take away his sin, and his only hope is a certain fiery judgement.

Anyone who forsakes Christ, unbelieving Jew or Gentile remains under his wrath. However, In Hebrews 10, Paul is not writing about Gentile believers. Instead if the enlightened Jew returns from the new covenant back to the old ceremonial laws and preisthood practices, there remains no salvation in the old covenant rather a fiery judgement.

Man… this was my whole contract idea (I used 16-30).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It has nothing do with having and then losing salvation.

If the Jew, after been enlightened to the new and better covenant laid by Christ, sinned wilfully, meaning returned to the old covenant system of animal sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, then there only remained for him in the old system the sacrifice for sins that did not justify. He had trampled on the blood of Christ by turning from the santification it provides to all mankind, called Christ’s sacrifice unworthy to take away his sin, and his only hope is a certain fiery judgement.

Anyone who forsakes Christ, unbelieving Jew or Gentile remains under his wrath. However, In Hebrews 10, Paul is not writing about Gentile believers. Instead if the enlightened Jew returns from the new covenant back to the old ceremonial laws and preisthood practices, there remains no salvation in the old covenant rather a fiery judgement.

I put your other quote up and noticed you added to the post. Just a recommendation, that red font is hard on the eyes.

Now, from your statement in the second quote above, it seems to say a Jew enlightened to the new covenant returns to the old, he risks a certain firey judgment. He lost his salvation.

That’s the same as saying, if a Gentile was enlightened, but returns to the old ways of sin, he risks a certainn firey judgement.

If a person is enlightened and, for whatever reason, returns to a life of sin, it’s forsaking Christ. As I mentioned in a post to rev. kevin, to think you were still due salvation would be taking God’s love for granted. That just seems wrong to me.

Now, with that said, i pray often that all are made worthy of the promises of Christ. He loves us all, even those who persecuted Him, evident by His asking the Father to forgive them for they knew not what they were doing. But again, does that mean we take His love for granted and assume that because we believe He is the only begotten Son of God, come to earth to suffer and die for our sins, that we will receive salvation no matter how we live out our lives?

Yes, Christians love Him, but people are weak and we have to return to Him if we stray.

 

[Rocket_Man]

That’s the same as saying, if a Gentile was enlightened, but returns to the old ways of sin, he risks a certainn firey judgement.

The old ways of sin is not what the author of Hebrews 10 had in mind. He is speaking specifically of the enlightened Jew (Letter to Hebrews) and sinning wilfully (turning from the truth in Jesus Christ) and back into the only system remaining which is the false one of trying to make one acceptable to God through their deeds.

 

[Xavierlives]

Ok, I understand the point, but feel you still didn’t answer the question. A person lives a Christian life and falls away into sin again and dies without repentance, or before they have the opportunity to return to the Father. Do you say that person was never saved to begin with? Do you say that person can lose their salvation?

By the way, I don’t see covenant and contract as the same. I only saw your point after the story…

Well, the million dollar question is will they get a chance to repent? I can’t answer that. I don’t know how God deals with them and the end of their life. I don’t know God’s plan for the end of my life. I know I am in an extremely better place of faith now than I was 15 years ago. Will it be better 15 years from now? 50 years? Only God knows these things.

(As a side note, I said at the beginning of the OP, I was arguing OSAS while withholding my own views. I do it because it sharpens my faith. I’d like to say, I’ll never find out if OSAS is true because I’ll never been in the pig sty.)

Also, I’ll take a moment to make a little commentary. I know there is only one judge. That judge has been established and it will all come out in that courtroom. I think there will be quite a few shocked people. People like my mother who say they are Christian, but have a place in their hearts for racial hatred. I can’t begin to understand how they will be judged. But I don’t have to wonder because it isn’t my job. I don’t know what standard they will be judged, but If I get to testify, I will say she is a Christian. Not running the race well, but running. Then there is my father who, does some amazingly loving works. I have never seen a more charitable person, but he is a non-Christian. He is going to be shocked, I won’t.

 

[Third_Day]

It is not about loosing one’s salvation, rather it’s about running the race to win heavenly rewards!

Explain this “heavenly rewards” idea. Correct me if I misunderstand. I assume that you believe that once you are born again you can never lose your salvation. Let’s say you commit adultery, you do not ask God for forgivenss, are you still saved?
I assume you will say yes. In your mind you will still go to heaven but you will not receive “heavenly rewards” What are these rewards in heaven? Details please.
Thank you.

 

[Third_Day]

I was being friendly and mentioning John 3:16 as to a scripture which a child can understand absolute assurance of salvation.

If you have a point to your scriptures, then make them instead of having me wake my children to see what your point is.

The point of all scripture is that you can lose your salvation.
Let me ask you this.
Once you accept Christ as you personal savior and you are born again you cannot lose your salvation. Correct?

What happens if you backslide? Let say you commit adultery, you do not ask God to forgive you, are you still saved? Yes or no
Lets say you molest a small child, you do not ask God to forgive you, are you still saved?yes or no.
Please don’t tell me that someone who is saved would never do those things. We have free will, or do we?