A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[kempo1]

hello friends in Christ, I think what it boils down to is that protestants are not taught to fear God’s wrath. Someone earlier made a comment that we are a new creation (which is true) but just like a child growing up you will make misstakes, wrong turns, say the wrong thing, touch what you are not supposed to etc. As the child groes older he or she will become a good child or bad child testing the parent. If the child becomes unmannageble by a certain age the parent will kick the child out and that child will loose their inheritence. Now the child has a choice to regain their status by coming back to the parent and making ammends watever that may require. God is that parent!! He loves us, gives us plenty of rope, but at a certain point he can cut the rope. To believe otherwise is just foolish. God is merciful and just, but he is also jealous and vengeful.

 

[Xavierlives]

hello friends in Christ, I think what it boils down to is that protestants are not taught to fear God’s wrath. Someone earlier made a comment that we are a new creation (which is true) but just like a child growing up you will make misstakes, wrong turns, say the wrong thing, touch what you are not supposed to etc. As the child groes older he or she will become a good child or bad child testing the parent. If the child becomes unmannageble by a certain age the parent will kick the child out and that child will loose their inheritence. Now the child has a choice to regain their status by coming back to the parent and making ammends watever that may require. God is that parent!! He loves us, gives us plenty of rope, but at a certain point he can cut the rope. To believe otherwise is just foolish. God is merciful and just, but he is also jealous and vengeful.

Yeah, I think we are probably focusing on 1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

 

[jericho777]

hello friends in Christ, I think what it boils down to is that protestants are not taught to fear God’s wrath. Someone earlier made a comment that we are a new creation (which is true) but just like a child growing up you will make misstakes, wrong turns, say the wrong thing, touch what you are not supposed to etc. As the child groes older he or she will become a good child or bad child testing the parent. If the child becomes unmannageble by a certain age the parent will kick the child out and that child will loose their inheritence. Now the child has a choice to regain their status by coming back to the parent and making ammends watever that may require. God is that parent!! He loves us, gives us plenty of rope, but at a certain point he can cut the rope. To believe otherwise is just foolish. God is merciful and just, but he is also jealous and vengeful.

There is a misconception here. God’s wrath is directed toward the sons of disobedience while His correction is towards His Children. Heb 12:6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." Col 3:6 For which things the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

The wicked will have eternally the full wrath of God. This is Gods judgment. While God corrects His own children here. We will have His grace (getting something we don’t deserve ) and mercy (not getting something we do deserve) for eternity.

When God elects you as a child you are always his child by adoption. Where as the wicked are children of their father the devil. You are looking through earthly eyes not the eyes of the Father in heaven.

 

[jmcrae]

Did God offer you salvation?

Did you accept?

You have a contract. Ask any lawyer.

That’s not actually how it works. God doesn’t walk up to people and say, “Hey, have I got a deal for you! If you just accept and believe that I, in the person of Jesus Christ, died on the Cross for your sins, you’ll get to go to Heaven, free of charge!” And then you sign something, and that’s it.

Did God ever come up to you and make you that offer? Because I’ve never actually seen that happen. (Don’t get me wrong. I’ve ridden the bus late at night, and I’ve had people come up to me offering me 4 Spiritual Laws tracts, and offering me instant salvation, if I but sign the back of the tract. They were not God, however.)

Rather, we have, here on the earth, the institution of the Church, which is an organization that was established by Christ during the early part of the first century AD. The priest of your local parish offers that if you participate in the Sacraments and in the life of the Church, that you will enter into a living relationship with Jesus Christ. He doesn’t ask you to sign a contract, though. Rather, he asks you to enter into something like a marriage covenant, where you will promise to be faithful to Christ all the days of your life, and Christ has already promised that He will be faithful to us for all of eternity - He doesn’t come up to me and make that promise to me personally, though - He made that promise to the Church, while He was still alive on earth - so, as long as I am in the Church, I am included in that promise - but God made no promises or offers to me, personally. Rather, it is by means of the institution of the Church that I enter into this Covenant. (Not a contract.)

 

[Xavierlives]

The Scriptures are also very clear on salvation being a lifelong process for those who endure in faith (Matt. 24:13, 25:31–46, John 15:1-9, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, Phi. 2:12, Col. 1:23, Heb. 3:6, James, 1:12, 1 John 2:24-25, 5:13).

But where do these scriptures deny OSAS? I say they affirm it.

And 1 Cor 3:10-16
And your use of James 1:12 (goes to my point)

 

[Xavierlives]

That’s not actually how it works. God doesn’t walk up to people and say, “Hey, have I got a deal for you! If you just accept and believe that I, in the person of Jesus Christ, died on the Cross for your sins, you’ll get to go to Heaven, free of charge!” And then you sign something, and that’s it.

Did God ever come up to you and make you that offer? Because I’ve never actually seen that happen. (Don’t get me wrong. I’ve ridden the bus late at night, and I’ve had people come up to me offering me 4 Spiritual Laws tracts, and offering me instant salvation, if I but sign the back of the tract. They were not God, however.)

Rather, we have, here on the earth, the institution of the Church, which is an organization that was established by Christ during the early part of the first century AD. The priest of your local parish offers that if you participate in the Sacraments and in the life of the Church, that you will enter into a living relationship with Jesus Christ. He doesn’t ask you to sign a contract, though. Rather, he asks you to enter into something like a marriage covenant, where you will promise to be faithful to Christ all the days of your life, and Christ has already promised that He will be faithful to us for all of eternity - He doesn’t come up to me and make that promise to me personally, though - He made that promise to the Church, while He was still alive on earth - so, as long as I am in the Church, I am included in that promise - but God made no promises or offers to me, personally. Rather, it is by means of the institution of the Church that I enter into this Covenant. (Not a contract.)

Contracts can be expressed or implied.

I’d rather believe it is expressed in the Bible, though.

And ya’ll are getting hung up on the idea that God contracts with us. A covenant and a contract are basically one in the same.

 

[jmcrae]

Please explain this concept more fully. Isn’t our inheritance eternal life? How can you be stripped of eternal life (our inheritance) yet have eternal life.?

I think what happens is that a lot of Protestants are under the impression that we will have “things” in Heaven. (Never mind that Heaven is a non-corporeal state of being) so they believe that a person could be “in Heaven” (like a person could be “in Canada”) but not have any “things” and it is the “things” that they lose when they sin; not the state of being.

As Catholics, we understand Heaven to be the highest possible state of joy, and either you are “in it” or you are not.

 

[jmcrae]

Contracts can be expressed or implied.

Yes, they can.

I’d rather believe it is expressed in the Bible, though.

The Bible isn’t a legal document that one would sign after reading. Rather, it’s a record of what went on before.

And ya’ll are getting hung up on the idea that God contracts with us. A covenant and a contract are basically one in the same.

Actually, they’re not.

A contract is an exchange of goods and/or services.

A marriage contract would be an exchange of services - in return for making supper, keeping house, and occasional sex, I will provide for your material needs and do whatever heavy lifting needs to be done around the house.

A covenant is an exchange of persons.

A marriage covenant would be an exchange of persons - I give myself to you, to love you, to take care of you, to honour you, and to be faithful to you, in good times and in bad times, until death us do part.

God doesn’t make contracts with His people - He makes covenants.

 

[AngloCatholic1]

I think what happens is that a lot of Protestants are under the impression that we will have “things” in Heaven. (Never mind that Heaven is a non-corporeal state of being) so they believe that a person could be “in Heaven” (like a person could be “in Canada”) but not have any “things” and it is the “things” that they lose when they sin; not the state of being.

As Catholics, we understand Heaven to be the highest possible state of joy, and either you are “in it” or you are not.

Amen, brother!

 

[elvisman]

But where do these scriptures deny OSAS? I say they affirm it.

And 1 Cor 3:10-16
And your use of James 1:12 (goes to my point)

No, you’re confused, once again.

They affirm that salvation is indeed a lifelong proces - a race that must be finished in order to obtain the crown. Your fauly reasoning of 1 Cor 3:10-16 only serves to prove my point because it speaks of a final purgation of iniquity and uncleanliness before entering heaven - yes, Purgatory:
***"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, ******for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. ***
*If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. *
**If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

---

Notice that the person is not yest saved, but WILL BE saved. They must be purged of their iniquity because as Rev. 21:27 clearly tells us - nothing unclean can enter heaven - and that includes Luthoier’s "snow-covered dunghills" . . .

 

[elvisman]

The race is our life. Have you ever noticed we aren’t told to win our race but simple finish our race. I can crawl over the finish line battered and beaten. Champions of the race will be crowned. But not everyone will receive a prize. If you have ever run a race, you know when you first start, your only goal is to finish.

Once you are trained. Once you know the race, then you aim for your prize. A person aiming for the prize is beyond finishing, they are competing.

The prodigal son finished the race battered and bruised but he found his way back to his father who still acknowledge him as son.

With this, as I noted in my “disclaimers” on the OP, I am severely having to restrict my hours on CAF. I have 80 work weeks for the next 5 weeks and I will try to squeak in 30 mins here or there for this thread (since I just started it).

That’s not what 2 Tim. 4:7 says. Paul tells Timothy, "I have fought the good fight; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith."

He DID the will of God until the end - he didn’t just acknowledge him as God and Savior.

He didn’t only finish the race - he fought the fight and kept the faith. Other translations say, "I have competed well."

**As for the Prodigal Son - your logic is flawed. **

The Prodigal son severed his relationship with his father, but it was later restored, how? Because of his repentance - not because the father coerced him in any way.

 

[Xavierlives]

**That’s not what 2 Tim. 4:7 **says. Paul tells Timothy, "I have fought the good fight; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith."

There is nothing contradictory here. I already said, some people run the race well, others do not. Some get a very short amount of time to run the race, others get a lifetime. I did note that you neglected to list 2 Tim 4:8 (which goes right back to my point):Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
A person who is faithful, receives the prize.

He DID the will of God until the end - he didn’t just acknowledge him as God and Savior.

He didn’t only finish the race - he fought the fight and kept the faith. Other translations say, “I have competed well.”

As for the Prodigal Son - your logic is flawed.

The Prodigal son severed his relationship with his father, but it was later restored, how? Because of his repentance - not because the father coerced him in any way.

No one said the father coerced him. I’m not sure where you got that from.

 

[Xavierlives]

Yes, they can.

The Bible isn’t a legal document that one would sign after reading. Rather, it’s a record of what went on before.

Actually, they’re not.

A contract is an exchange of goods and/or services.

A marriage contract would be an exchange of services - in return for making supper, keeping house, and occasional sex, I will provide for your material needs and do whatever heavy lifting needs to be done around the house.

A covenant is an exchange of persons.

A marriage covenant would be an exchange of persons - I give myself to you, to love you, to take care of you, to honour you, and to be faithful to you, in good times and in bad times, until death us do part.

God doesn’t make contracts with His people - He makes covenants.

You understand I am making an analogy, right? You seem to be really stuck on this contract issue. I didn’t sign the inside cover of my Bible. I’m not waiting by my mailbox for God’s signature. This is all to further advance the argument, not as some formal declaration. If stop arguing procedure, you can argue the law with me and the **King of Rock and Roll **.

Moreover, you understand I am doing this as an exercise for the OSAS side?

 

[Third_Day]

Third Day Quote lease explain this concept more fully. Isn’t our inheritance eternal life? How can you be stripped of eternal life (our inheritance) yet have eternal life.?

=Xavierlives;6196813]Eternal life is tied to the right God grants us to be with him forever.

Well the other example being batted around here is the concept of the race. More specifically, our Christian life is a race. For some the race is short and for others it is long. I can lesurely stroll to the finish line or I can jog or I can all out sprint or any variation. A goal for many racers (especially beginners) is to simply finish. A goal for experienced racers is to finish well. While I might come across obstructions, muscle cramps, shortness of breath, whatever, I know my ultimate goal is to finish.

So far I agree with you

Personally, I would like to also do my very best. Now, I am asthmatic, so racing is personally difficult. I remember when I was training for the Marine Corps physical fitness exam, I couldn’t even finish the race. Only after continued training was I able to overcome my physical adversity and finish my race. I never was first, but I finished and I personally did better than I ever had done before. For asthmatic who ran that day, I was number 1.

I like that fact that you said you wanted to DO your very best. That’s very Catholic.

Now our race to the spiritual finish line is the same way. I can cross the line in last place but what do I get to say? I finished. Maybe I was a horrible runner. People were laughing as they passed me, I like everyone ahead of me, get to at least say, I finished
You finished the race. You were not disqualified because you played by the rules.

So what is at the finish line of a race? Does a last place finish get a prize? No. The reward to finishing the race is once you are there, you get to spend eternity with our heavenly Father

.
But had you cheated and tried to take short-cuts you would have been disqualified and banished to hell.

The comparison to the prodigal son is, does he return and receive another inheritance

? No. You waste your inheritance and POOF! it is gone. You can return to the Father and receive a warm “welcome home!” but your brother who was faithful will receive his fill inheritance while you have the benefit of being home, forever.

You are leaving something important out. What did the prodigal son say to his Father?
“Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, I am no longer worthy to be called your son”
The prodigan son did a work of confession and was truly sorry for the sins against his Father. Very Catholic.

 

[jmcrae]

You understand I am making an analogy, right?

It’s not working, for me. I’m trying to explain to you why it’s not working for me.

You seem to be really stuck on this contract issue.

Well, it seems to be at the heart of your analogy.

I didn’t sign the inside cover of my Bible. I’m not waiting by my mailbox for God’s signature.

That’s good, because that’s never going to happen. God made a covenant with the Church - He is not making contracts with individual persons.

This is all to further advance the argument, not as some formal declaration.

The argument isn’t working, because the analogy doesn’t fit with reality.

If stop arguing procedure, you can argue the law with me and the **King of Rock and Roll **.

I have no idea what that means.

Moreover, you understand I am doing this as an exercise for the OSAS side?

Hopefully, they don’t take on your argument, because it’s not working.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The simple question is, do you believe that once a person believes they cannot fall from grace? For example a person believes Christ died for our salvation but for whatever reason continues in a life of sins, will that person receive salvation? One can believe and steal, commit adultery, lie, etc. and still go to heaven?

That’s the way Catholics interpret once saved always saved.

Now, I’ve heard it said, those who do that weren’t really saved to begin with. Where’s the salvation assurance? A person is saved, by the standards you provide, and sins, are they to think they weren’t really saved to begin with? We are all human and prone to fall once in awhile. Some falls are more serious than others.

I know you’ve heard the term ‘backsliding’, what is your view of that?

 

[jmcrae]

Now, I’ve heard it said, those who do that weren’t really saved to begin with. Where’s the salvation assurance? A person is saved, by the standards you provide, and sins, are they to think they weren’t really saved to begin with? We are all human and prone to fall once in awhile. Some falls are more serious than others.

What happens if a person who is not really saved to begin with, dies before he commits his big sin? How would he ever know that he had never been saved to begin with? He would go to his death-bed thinking that he is on his way to Heaven, and he wouldn’t take any steps to ensure that he makes a good death, because there would be no way for him to know that he is not actually saved at all.

 

[elvisman]

There is nothing contradictory here. I already said, some people run the race well, others do not. Some get a very short amount of time to run the race, others get a lifetime. I did note that you neglected to list 2 Tim 4:8 (which goes right back to my point):
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
A person who is faithful, receives the prize.

No one said the father coerced him. I’m not sure where you got that from.

Not sure what you mean as you seem to be all over the board on this topic.

Please address my response to you in post #50.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

There is nothing contradictory here. I already said, some people run the race well, others do not. Some get a very short amount of time to run the race, others get a lifetime. I did note that you neglected to list 2 Tim 4:8 (which goes right back to my point):Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.A person who is faithful, receives the prize.

I don’t think time of said race (quantitative) equates to how well the race (quality) is won. We are all in time (quantitative) by being born into this world but amongst those, not all will have the same quality race. To consider this metaphor as I’ve understood you to use it, I believe all finish the race (i.e. die) whether it by still born (short) or old (long time) but not all receive the prize of eternal life with God. Eternity and death are given (similar to receiving a participation medal I guess) but how we will spend that eternity is dependent on our participation (sports man-like character or how one is faithful).

If God makes a clause into this contract based on upon our fidelity (similar to a pre-nuptial contract, seeing as the Church is the bride of Christ), then our love and faithfulness involve an act of will upon us and we can thus be punished for our lack of fidelity in Hell. If God would make this contract, I’d say that God is always faithful but we are not so thus this contract must be conditional based on our part.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I don’t think time of said race (quantitative) equates to how well the race (quality) is won. We are all in time (quantitative) by being born into this world but amongst those, not all will have the same quality race. To consider this metaphor as I’ve understood you to use it, I believe all finish the race (i.e. die) whether it by still born (short) or old (long time) but not all receive the prize of eternal life with God. Eternity and death are given (similar to receiving a participation medal I guess) but how we will spend that eternity is dependent on our participation (sports man-like character or how one is faithful).

If God makes a clause into this contract based on upon our fidelity (similar to a pre-nuptial contract, seeing as the Church is the bride of Christ), then our love and faithfulness involve an act of will upon us and we can thus be punished for our lack of fidelity in Hell. If God would make this contract, I’d say that God is always faithful but we are not so thus this contract must be conditional based on our part.

I’d actually amend the last part–Hell is the result of a ‘separation’ of both married parties based on our failure to be faithful as part of the conditional clause.