A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[Rocket_Man]

You are correct in that Hebrews was one manuscript with no chapter and verse notations so it is important to note the context and the audience addressed.

Yes it is critical to understand to whom it was written. And if you fail to understand that Paul wrote to believing Jews and also those that were toddling on the fence, you will misinterpet the warning passages.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes it is critical to understand to whom it was written. And if you fail to understand that Paul wrote to believing Jews and also those that were toddling on the fence, you will misinterpet the warning passages.

Critical to understand to whom a letter was written, but not critical to understand to whom something was spoken too?

 

[Xavierlives]

I’M a Devil**?? WHY would you call me that? Because** I disagree with you?
Talk about a desperate statement . . .

Why** would you make such a statement? I never called Tweetymom** “arrogant”. I said her STATEMENT was arrogant.
This is not a forum for ad hominems, but I can see your frustration because of the lack of substantial evidence on your posts.

And, let’s be honest. The only thing that makes you not want to have discussions with me is that I’m using the Scriptures to debunk all of your positions on OSAS and am nailing you to the wall with the truth.

Err… I didn’t say those things. You did. If you are not intending the tone and language that is coming across, you should think about reading them aloud or something. When you say “that is an ignorant statement,” 99% of the people reading that are going to interpret it to mean, “you are ignorant.” So, if you don’t intend these types of thoughts and you truly are trying to show some charity, then take an extra moment and see if it is intended in a Christ-like manner.

To show how perceptive I am, I am also guessing this and any future comments are only intended to goad me into commenting to you yet again. If you change your tone, I’ll be happy to resume, but for now I see no value in badgering, mocking, belittling, berating for you to feel you have “taken down a debate coach.” Do as you like, but with charity.

Good day.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes it is critical to understand to whom it was written. And if you fail to understand that Paul wrote to believing Jews and also those that were toddling on the fence, you will misinterpet the warning passages.

Those who were “toddling on the fence” were not admitted to Mass, back in those days, and would not have heard this letter being read out to the Church there. St. Paul already knew this - he wasn’t writing to them.

 

[Xavierlives]

It’s very simple, really - when He was speaking to the Apostles alone, then the instruction is for the Apostles and their successors alone. When He is speaking to “the crowds” then it is an instruction for all of us to follow.

But he has said all of the scripture is good for all people, we can’t back track now.

 

[jmcrae]

But he has said all of the scripture is good for all people, we can’t back track now.

It is - you can read it and know what is proper for the Bishops to do, and what is proper for us to do.

 

[Xavierlives]

It is - you can read it and know what is proper for the Bishops to do, and what is proper for us to do.

(I’m not disagreeing!)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

But he has said all of the scripture is good for all people, we can’t back track now.

And how many times did He correct interpretations of scriptures?

Christ explained the scriptures. Having scriptures explained is as old as the Old Testament.

**Nehemiah 8

1And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.

2And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.

3And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.

4And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.

5And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people) and when he opened it, all the people stood up:

6And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.

7Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.

8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.**

Scriptures was good for all those people, once they had been explained to them.

 

[tweetymom]

I’d only expect 1 Corinthians 13: 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13**And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.**I think that’s fair.

That sounds really good for people to try and do.

 

[Xavierlives]

And how many times did He correct interpretations of scriptures?

Christ explained the scriptures. Having scriptures explained is as old as the Old Testament.

**Nehemiah 8

1And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.

2And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.

3And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.

4And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.

5And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people) and when he opened it, all the people stood up:

6And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.

7Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.

8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.**

Scriptures was good for all those people, once they had been explained to them.

I was making a moot point. I should have just let it slide.

 

[tweetymom]

tweetymom, you can look through all your posts and see the greatest majority are apparent disagreements with Catholics, on many fronts.

We all love Jesus, Catholic and Protestant alike. No one has a corner on that market. We discuss much more out of our love of Christ and the majority take time to explain themselves, use scriptures supporting their view, or other sources. They don’t just post opinions, that seemingly are in direct conflict with other posts, without taking time to explain ourselves, through our love of Christ.

I agree. Everyone should respect each other. Is it respect to respond to a post that someone has taken the time and effort to put together, with prayer and reflection, to carefully articulate a view, with a ‘snap’ disagreement with no explanation, even when an explanation of a viewpoint is requested? I’ll be honest, it not only invalidates anything posted from a person like that, it reflects poorly on the person who uses those tactics.

If we’re here to share our love of Christ, shouldn’t we take time to explain ourselves to others?

Viewing another’s guilt as a justification is saying, two wrongs make a right. We are all only human and prone to make mistakes.

We all know who we believe in and who we trust and it’s God.

These are forums, designed to discuss theologies, that is their purpose. There are going to be debates and even arguments. If you’re not here to discuss or debate, then you have to ask yourself why you are here, otherwise people are going to continue call you out on your posts.

This morning as I said my prayers, I remembered you. I don’t want an adversary and I really do care for you. I hope we can start over and share our love of Christ together.

I do not agree with all the CC teaches. Do you want me to lie and say I do? I do not think the CC is the only right Church. I believe we are all Christians if we follow Jesus.

 

[tweetymom]

Look, you asked elvisman why he thought he had a right to admonish you, I gave Scriptural support for his claim.

Now why would you wonder if it applied to elvisman but not you? Give me some Scriptural support for your position, please.

He has no right except he thinks so.

 

[tweetymom]

lets look at the abundance of charity:
you are a devil. You are arrogant.

you are ignorant.

i don’t have my charity measuring stick handy, but this kind of tone makes me not want to have discussions with him.

me either

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I do not agree with all the CC teaches. Do you want me to lie and say I do? I do not think the CC is the only right Church. I believe we are all Christians if we follow Jesus.

tweetymom, I’m not expecting you to agree with everything posted, I am only asking that you take the time to explain your view and offer supporting sources; scriptures, etc.

The only part of your statement I would disagree with is the reference about the Catholic Church being the only right Church. I’ve posted many scriptures stating we should be of the same mind and judgement and I believe Christ built only one Church and there are writings to support that the Catholic Church was the early Church.

Now, do I doubt Protestants are Christians? No, I believe they are. They came through the Catholic Church from the reformation. The only differences lie in the beliefs they chose to take with them. They did not take them all. The sacrements they practice, were from the Church. Their belief in Jesus and His sacrifice for the sins of all, came from the Catholic Church. The Bible they have was preserved by the Catholic Church. Even Martin Luther agreed with that.

“We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists (Catholics)–that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it."

Protestants have ‘developed’ different beliefs through private interpretaitons, whether is was by individuals or groups. This is a mistake in my opinion, according to scriptures, but it is my hope and prayer that through God’s great ecomony, all will be worthy of the promises of Christ.

 

[rev_kevin]

The same One that chose your parents. And the question has absolutely nothing to do with you you can’t run from yourself…

Thank you but I don’t run from myself. I have no reason to run from myself. I believe they did what they thought right because of their upbringing. Now if you want to discuss once saved always saved then lets do it but its time to leave my wonderful, loving parents out of this converstation.

 

[rev_kevin]

It does not emphatically state “Salvation is a process.”

However, we can figure out from Scripture that it is a process.

Baptism gives us hope of eternal life.

Titus 3:7
so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

“Hope” is not a “guarantee.” I can hope to go to the football game on Sunday, but that does not mean that I will actually be there at the football game on Sunday. I could become ill; Someone in my family could become ill or die; or I could be in a car accident on the way and never get there, etc.

2 Thessalonians 1:3-12
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 3:5-18
And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Be Faithful

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

  “ Today, if you will hear His voice,
   8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
  In the day of trial in the wilderness,
   9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
  And saw My works forty years.
   10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
  And said, ‘**They always go astray in their heart**,
  And they have not known My ways.’
   11 So I swore in My wrath,
  ‘ They shall not enter My rest.’”

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

  “ Today, if you will hear His voice,
  Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Failure of the Wilderness Wanderers

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?

After persons are reconciled to God, they must obey His commandments until they die (until the end) if they desire to inherit eternal life. Hopefully, we will grow in love for God and become perfected Christians. If we Christians remain lukewarm (either no or few good fruits/works) then we will not be saved. Revelation 3:15-18

So this is why we have “hope” of eternal life only. We are not guaranteed eternal life. Inheriting eternal life is conditional on whether we obey God until the instant of our deaths.

So its just speculation and the way you interperate what the Bible is saying. I never said eternal life is a guarantee. I said it was not a quarantee and that once you are saved God will never leave you hence once saved always saved.

 

[PJM]

***1. Dosen’t a valid contract require “consideration” from both parties? God who is perfect, cannot be made, or become “more perfect.” Threrefore no consideraton and no contract can exist.

1. Salvation is not even a covenant AGREEMENT, although it is based on a promise of Redemption;*** meaning ONLY a reestablishment of a relationship with God, that had been torn from the Sin of Adam and Eve. The POSSIBILITY on certain coniditions being fulfilled, might be considered a contract of specific-preformance by both parties to the contract, that has as its end; Salvation?

This redemption pertains specifically, precisely and exclusively to access to heaven. This access had been denied even those worthy of Salvation, until the “NEW ADAM” by a single self-sacrificing act, found acceptable by God as it was FROM GOD and FOR GOD,
reopened the gates, making possible once again; access to heaven.

1. God makes the offer
   III. Some affirmation of our agreement
   A. John 4:13-14 – You will thirst no more.
   B. John 6:32-35 – You will hunger no more.
   C. John 8:12 – I am the light.
   D. John 10:27-30

– Jesus gives eternal life, that no one can snatch from His hand.
E. John 14:6-7 – no one come to the Father but by me.
F. Romans 5:20-21 – the law exists and sin abounds, but grace forgives.

While these may or MAY-NOT indicate acceptance of the Offer; as accecptance MUST be personal, specifcally intended, and supported by future actions. It does for the sake of conversation, lead at least to the possibility of acceptance.

**John 10:27-29 **" **[27] My sheep **hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

**John 21:17 ** ***"He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” **Peter *****was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.”

Indeed salvation is from God alone. BUT as this verse and others [Mt. 16:15-19, 18:18 and John 3:6 and John 20:19-23] make clear it is chaneled through the “SEE of Peter,” the Catholic Church!

This passage is the first of many to explain the CONDITIONS to be met, in order to atain Salvation.

**John.15: 10 **“If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.”

**Matt.16: 24 **"Then Jesus told his disciples, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”

John.3: 5 "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

1 John 5:16 “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.” [Unconfessed Mortal Sin will condem one to hell for eterinity.]

** John 20:21-23**"[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

These are a few of the verses that spell out the specific preformance measurs that must be fuliflled in route to POSSIBLE salvation.

Love andprayers,

Pat

 

[shawn38]

All sin is abhorrent to God. But my questions was to your placing your “venial sin” and “spiritual death” into 1 John 5:16. Again here is the verse:

“If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.”

Why does John instruct us to pray and ask so the sinner may have spirtual life when his sin(s) does not lead to spiritual death?

ROMANS 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace

Those in Christ are under grace, not the law. Can we sin? Yes, from the laws aspect which we are no longer under. But sin is not become are master, consuming are every thought. But if you sin, you have a mediator in Christ Jesus. You can repent.

 

[Xavierlives]

ROMANS 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace

Those in Christ are under grace, not the law. Can we sin? Yes, from the laws aspect which we are no longer under. But sin is not become are master, consuming are every thought. But if you sin, you have a mediator in Christ Jesus. You can repent.

Shhh… some people might start thinking their work is in vain.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I never said eternal life is a guarantee. I said it was not a quarantee and that once you are saved God will never leave you hence once saved always saved.

Sorry, maybe it’s because I joined the discussion late but, I don’t think you made any sense in the above post.

What I got from that is: if you are pulled out of the ocean, you are not guaranteed to fall back in, yet you do. Make it easy for me to understand, Rev. I’m all ears.