A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[Xavierlives]

In a sense you are correct. But we don’t believe that faith automatically causes us to do good. We believe that doing good works is a REQUIREMENT of faith. The Sacraments give us the graces and strength we need to persevere. As our assoc pastor say, “Faith is a verb.”

But, again, the only requirement is faith. Yes, work naturally follows, but if the words I speak were not true you would be short one saint. Faith alone is sufficient, because Grace alone is sufficient. Works are expected.

 

[Xavierlives]

There have been people who have not died. Give me Scritpure to back up the perfectly claim.

If you are speaking of Enoch and Elijah, they will be killed by the Antichrist.

We were talking about sky divers not Enoch and Elijah.

So you were talking about skydivers… then suddenly it shifted to Enoch and Elijah will be killed by the antichrist?

But I am interested in the two undead being forced to submit to death.

Ahh here is the post:

It doesn’t name them by name in Scripture (public revelation). They are called the “two witnesses” in Scripture. Revelation 11:3-12

The Jews will recognize them as holy prophets from God and so then these Jews will become Christians because of these two witnesses’ testimony, death, resurrection, and ascension. This is when the “remnant” of Israel is finallly saved. Romans 9:27-28

These two witnesses are named in Catholic prophecy (private revelation). (We do not have to believe private Catholic revelation in order to be a Catholic in good standing with the Church. But, it does enrich our faith.)

Revelation 6:9-11

A person can only die once. Hebrews 9:27 These two witnesses have never died before and they will die at the hands of the Antichrist according to private Catholic prophecy.

Now, is this the Catholic view of the “two witnesses” or just general opinion?

 

[rev_kevin]

I’m about 95% sure rev meant chapter 1.

What does complete mean to you? Revelation 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, what does “unclean” mean to you. I’m assuming that you agree that when we go to heaven and are ‘complete’ that we would no longer be unclean; so conversely, what does it mean to be clean? I know what it means to me and other Catholics, what does it mean to you?
Like it says in 27 Nothing evil will be allowied to enter—no one who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty–but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

I’m not, these practices were and are sins, God forbade them as He does all sin and expects us to be perfect before Him, as is shown by this verse and Mt 5:28. What do you think God meant by the word “perfect” in verse 13?
Mt. 5:13 says You are the salt of the earth. But what good is salt if it has lost its flavor? Can you make it useful again? It will be thrown out and trampled underfoot as worthless. I see no word perfect here.

So you believe that our Lord gave us a commandment that is not achievable?!
Are you able to keep all the commandments? No. If you say yes then you already broke on of the commandments, thou shall not lie.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
They may not be burdensome but they are hard to keep because we are fallible humans.

Our God would never give us a commandment that is too hard to obey, do you think He would? Christ’s disciples truly have the power to erase the sin from our souls, Christ gave them that power. To demonstrate the cleansing power of His forgiveness, our God healed physical ailments in cooperation with the forgiveness of their sins [Mk 2:1-11], He then passed on this power to His disciples [Jn 20:22-23] who have continued this practice all the way down to today. God would never give us a command without giving us the means of fulfilling it.

In post 592 you say that perfection usually does not happen while a person is still alive on earth. I don’t understand the perfection part here on earth when you say it can not happen while a person is still alive but you are talking about being alive and perfect.

 

[qui_est_ce]

But, again, the only requirement is faith. Yes, work naturally follows, but if the words I speak were not true you would be short one saint. Faith alone is sufficient, because Grace alone is sufficient. Works are expected.

Faith alone is not sufficient. Good works do not naturally follow. I know a very faithful Catholic homosexual couple. Their motto is “Love God and do what you want.” They do not think their behavior is sinful. I’m not going to condemn them…

 

[rev_kevin]

So you were talking about skydivers… then suddenly it shifted to Enoch and Elijah will be killed by the antichrist?
I quess they did not read post 553 and assumed it was about the antichrist.

But I am interested in the two undead being forced to submit to death.

Ahh here is the post:

Now, is this the Catholic view of the “two witnesses” or just general opinion?

 

[qui_est_ce]

rev_kevin:
Footnote in my Catholic Bible:

3 [3] The two witnesses, wearing sackcloth symbolizing lamentation and repentance, cannot readily be identified. Do they represent Moses and Elijah, or the Law and the Prophets, or Peter and Paul? Most probably they refer to the universal church, especially the Christian martyrs, fulfilling the office of witness (two because of Deut 19:15; cf Mark 6:7; John 8:17).

Rome is the whore of Babylon.

 

[SHW]

These

Amen, amen, I say unto you that he who hears my word and believes him that sent me has life everlasting: and comes not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.

I already explained this:

"Believes" means "obeys."

There is no “belief” without “obedience.” Many people will say that they know (believe in) God, but they will not be saved because in order to believe in God, they also have to obey Him.

Hebrews 3:18-19
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to** those who did not obey**? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Unbelief is disobedience. Belief is obedience. You cannot inherit eternal life if you do not obey God’s commandments and His commands include producing good fruits.

We must be “doers” of the Word and not “hearers only” if we desire to inherit eternal life. This is a command. It is not a suggestion.

Romans 2:13
(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

James 1:21-22
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

If a person believes that he will inherit eternal life by simply believing in God’s existence instead of obeying God’s commands, then he is deceiving himself when he thinks that he will inherit eternal life when he dies. He will not inherit eternal life unless he obeys God’s commandments.

Even Satan believes that there is a God:

James 2:19-20
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Demons believe that God exists, but this does not give them eternal life. They are now dead (lost eternal life) because they did not obey God when they had the opportunity to obey Him. Obedience is what gives us the right to eternal life. The demons do not obey God. People who do not obey God’s commandments will not inherit eternal life.

This is plain speaking:

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

Matthew 19:16-17
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Matthew 19:18-22, Matthew 19:23

These Scripture passages are a direct quote from Jesus.
A person will not enter/inherit eternal life unless he obeys God’s commandments.

**Any person/teacher who tells/teaches another person that he will still inherit eternal life even though he does not obey God’s commandments is a false teacher. ** 2 Peter 2:1, 2 Timothy 3

**Teachers of the Word beware: **

James 3:1
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

OSAS is a false doctrine. Only those persons who obey God’s commandments until the end of their lives will inherit eternal life.

 

[Xavierlives]

It doesn’t name them by name in Scripture (public revelation). They are called the “two witnesses” in Scripture. Revelation 11:3-12

The Jews will recognize them as holy prophets from God and so then these Jews will become Christians because of these two witnesses’ testimony, death, resurrection, and ascension. This is when the “remnant” of Israel is finallly saved. Romans 9:27-28

These two witnesses are named in Catholic prophecy (private revelation). (We do not have to believe private Catholic revelation in order to be a Catholic in good standing with the Church. But, it does enrich our faith.)

Revelation 6:9-11

A person can only die once. Hebrews 9:27 These two witnesses have never died before and they will die at the hands of the Antichrist according to private Catholic prophecy.

Faith alone is not sufficient. Good works do not naturally follow. I know a very faithful Catholic homosexual couple. Their motto is “Love God and do what you want.” They do not think their behavior is sinful. I’m not going to condemn them…

Then heaven is missing a saint because what the Catholic church once acknowledged, through your lips it no longer acknowledges. Futhermore, we are not talking about gays living in sin. We are talking about the requirements to be with Christ. Through Christ’s own testimony, we see a saint being acknowledged and all this person did, the only thing he did, the single thing he did was have faith. He needed not to have works. He acknowledged Christ and was acknowledged by Christ.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Then heaven is missing a saint because what the Catholic church once acknowledged, through your lips it no longer acknowledges. Futhermore, we are not talking about gays living in sin. We are talking about the requirements to be with Christ. Through Christ’s own testimony, we see a saint being acknowledged and all this person did, the only thing he did, the single thing he did was have faith. He needed not to have works. He acknowledged Christ and was acknowledged by Christ.

Yes, and what did he DO? Faith is a work.

 

[SHW]

What if a person has already worked out their salvation?

**The “race” is not over for a person until the instant he dies. **

Matthew 24:12-13
And because lawlessness (“sin”/disobedience to God’s laws/commands 1 John 3:4) will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Only the person who continues to obey God’s commands until death (endures to the end of his life) will be saved/inherit eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. Acts 14:22

Acts 13:43
Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

1 Corinthians 9:24, 27
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.

27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Paul disciplines his body (obeys God’s commandments instead of serving his own flesh’s desires) so that he himself will not become disqualified from the race to inherit eternal life (even after he has preached the truth of endurance to the end of the race/life to others).

1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. James 4:7, 1 Peter 5:8-10
**
If a person “falls” from grace, then he will no longer inherit eternal life** (unless he repents and is reconciled again to God before his death). Ezekiel 33:12-18

2 Peter 3:16-17
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

Right before Paul’s trial and execution (martyrdom), he states:

2 Timothy 4:6-8
For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

The time of Paul’s departure from earth is at hand. He has finished the race firm in his faith and obedience to God. Hebrews 3:6 Paul kept the faith. He was a doer of the Word and not a hearer only. He was not deceived by false OSAS doctrine. James 1:22, Hebrews 5:8-9

 

[jmcrae]

What if a person has already worked out their salvation?

Even Mother Teresa kept working out her salvation right until the very end - do you propose that you are even more holy than she was?

 

[SHW]

But work is not required. The only requirement is belief. The catholics know this to be true because one of your very saints is a no-works saint.

The CC just doesn’t like to project it. The way the message is, you will work because of faith, not you need to work for faith.

To which saint are you referring?

If it is the “good” thief on the cross:

First, he reviled Jesus as did the other thief.

Matthew 27:44
Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.

Then, he repents of his own sinfulness and he even admonishes the other robber:

Luke 23:39-42
39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”

His admonishment/rebuking of the other robber in Jesus’ defense is a “work worthy of repentance.” Matthew 3:8, Matthew 10:32-33

And, then he puts his faith (believes) in Jesus:

Luke 23:42
Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

His “reward” for his “belief in Jesus,” “repentance” and “good fruit/work/deed”:

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Eternal life is his reward for his repentance, belief in Christ, and good work.

 

[SHW]

…

But I am interested in the two undead being forced to submit to death.

…

Now, is this the Catholic view of the “two witnesses” or just general opinion?

Most Catholics do not know that the two witnesses will be Enoch and Elijah. However, the few Catholics who study both Revelation and also private revelation have probably figured it out.

 

[SHW]

In post 592 you say that perfection usually does not happen while a person is still alive on earth. I don’t understand the perfection part here on earth when you say it can not happen while a person is still alive but you are talking about being alive and perfect.

A person can be perfected while he is still alive here on earth, but most people are not. Most people will still sin venial sins until the time of death even though they do not sin mortal sins so most people (who are saved/have sanctifying grace on their souls when they die) will have to go to prison/purgatory after they die in order to be perfected so that they can then later enter into eternal life. Nothing imperfect can enter heaven. We must have the mind of Christ (perfect love for both God and neighbor) before we can enter into heaven.

Galatians 5:16-21
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

If you obey God’s commandments (if you are led by the Spirit), then you are not condemned as transgressors of the royal law because you are obeying His commandments instead of breaking His commandments. James 2:7-9

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If, however, you do the works of the flesh (if you disobey God’s commandments), then you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:8
For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

 

[jmcrae]

Most Catholics do not know that the two witnesses will be Enoch and Elijah. However, the few Catholics who study both Revelation and also private revelation have probably figured it out.

Totally off-topic, but have any of you guys ever read Father Elijah: An Apocalypse by Michael O’Brien? It’s great fun!

 

[Xavierlives]

PART 1 –

No, you ignored the scripture when requested. At first your chief complaint was said that the scripture used was past tense. Then when a present tense rendition was used you changed your argument to “belief means obey.” So… I guess we’ll need to take the long road on this one.

I already explained this:

"Believes" means "obeys."

There is no “belief” without “obedience.” Many people will say that they know (believe in) God, but they will not be saved because in order to believe in God, they also have to obey Him.

Hebrews 3:18-19
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to** those who did not obey**? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Unbelief is disobedience. Belief is obedience. You cannot inherit eternal life if you do not obey God’s commandments and His commands include producing good fruits.

We must be "doers" of the Word and not “hearers only” if we desire to inherit eternal life. This is a command. It is not a suggestion.

You say believe means obey.

We see the latin for believe is credatis –
credo, credere, credidi, creditus trust, entrust; commit/consign; believe, trust in, rely on, confide;

I don’t see obey, but lets look at the latin for obey… it is obediunt.

Nope. It appears, believe is not obey.

You quote Hebrews to show disbelief and disobedience, but lets look at that scripture as well

18 Quibus autem juravit non introire in requiem ipsius, nisi illis qui increduli fuerunt? 19 Et videmus, quia non potuerunt introire propter incredulitatem.

I bet you see it…increduli… and incredulitatem.

Guess what, again, neither of these mean disobedience. They mean disbelief.

Believe means believe and obey means obey.
Futhermore you later quote James to say, * even the devils believe*. Which, I’ll admit is an interesting twist, because the demons do obey God and they do believe God, but you are correct they do not have a faith in God (but we will take that up in a bit).

Romans 2:13
(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

You realize that you quoted a scripture that starts with a parenthe, right? It is screaming for you to shut the door: 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
But Moreover what is Romans 2 talking about…judging. Interesting. Because, while we talk about doing works we are not disagreeing about works, per se, but we are arguing the nature of * do.* But while we discuss the nature of do, we are distracted from the nature of believe..
Better verses for your argument really are Romans 2: 7-11 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God. It hits all your key points, well besides having work being required to inherit heaven.

James 1:21-22
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

If a person believes that he will inherit eternal life by simply believing in God’s existence instead of obeying God’s commands, then he is deceiving himself when he thinks that he will inherit eternal life when he dies. He will not inherit eternal life unless he obeys God’s commandments.

You seem to be missing the point. Faith is sufficient but because of my faith, I work. If a new tree breaks the ground and starts to grow, how long must it go before it produces fruit? Instantly? No. What happens if a new sproutling is trampled before fruit is seen? Was it alive? Yes.

But as a dead tree cannot produce fruit, you cannot expect work to support faith. Work is obedient to faith.

 

[Xavierlives]

PART 2 –

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

And with this I have no qualms. But he also said, no man shall enter but through me.
So how can we reconcile these two?

When we believe in Christ, we believe in doing what is right. We believe in helping others at our own expense. We treat people differently. We act differently. We teach differently. We train differently. We stop and aid. While we might have busy lives, we can stop and aid a fallen brother. We pick them up. Dust them off. Set them in a safe place and say, I shall return and check on him. Does that mean they will never fall victim to thieves again? No. But if we find them along our path, we should help them all over again.

Matthew 19:16-17
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Matthew 19:18-22, Matthew 19:23

These Scripture passages are a direct quote from Jesus.
A person will not enter/inherit eternal life unless he obeys God’s commandments.

Well, close. Try not to distort it because this is closer to our point ever yet. This man was attempting to say, “I follow the law” shall I not inherit the Kingdom. And what did Christ say? He went to the heart of the issue. The man did not believe. For if he believed, he would understand, that it is not works of the law. He did that. He did not believe and did not follow. He believed upon his works and left truly distressed.

**Any person/teacher who tells/teaches another person that he will still inherit eternal life even though he does not obey God’s commandments is a false teacher. ** 2 Peter 2:1, 2 Timothy 3

**Teachers of the Word beware: **

James 3:1
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

Now, these by far are the more dangerous things presented, because what you hold there, is a double blade. By acknowledging the judgment, you are making yourself eligible for that judgment.

 

[SHW]

Footnote in my Catholic Bible:

3 [3] The two witnesses, wearing sackcloth symbolizing lamentation and repentance, cannot readily be identified. Do they represent Moses and Elijah, or the Law and the Prophets, or Peter and Paul? Most probably they refer to the universal church, especially the Christian martyrs, fulfilling the office of witness (two because of Deut 19:15; cf Mark 6:7; John 8:17).

Perhaps it depends on whether we are speaking of these witnesses in a literal sense (two specific flesh and blood men who are alive at the time of Antichrist) or in a spiritual sense (Church).

The Douay-Rheims Bible commentary and St. Jerome (Epistulae, 59) state that the two witnesses are (Henoch) Enoch and Elijah (Elias). So do St. Augustine (De civitate Dei, 39) and St. Gregory the Great (Moralia, 9, 4).

Rome is the whore of Babylon

.
Revelation 17:4-10

Pagan Rome may be the whore of Babylon or it may be Jerusalem. Rome today and ancient Pagan Rome were built on seven hills. The Vatican is not built on any of these seven hills of Rome. It is built across the river on its own hill. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_Rome

Jerusalem was built on seven hills or mountains also. So were Byzantium, and Babylon. Also, these mountains may be seven “kings,” and not literal mountains at all.

askelm.com/prophecy/p030901.htm

Also, this great city of Antichrist will be the place where Jesus was crucified, so my guess is Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies (the two witnesses) will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 18:16
and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in** fine linen, purple, and scarlet**, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!

Exodus 26:36
You shall make a screen for the door of the tabernacle, woven of blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, made by a weaver.

Purple, scarlet, fine woven linen were identified with the tabernacle of the Israelites first and then later with the temple of the Jews.

My guess is Jerusalem, unless of course, they are speaking of two separate “great cities.” Then one of them could be pagan Rome and the other Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified.

 

[SHW]

PART 2 –
Now, these by far are the more dangerous things presented, because what you hold there, is a double blade. By acknowledging the judgment, you are making yourself eligible for that judgment.

I am fully aware of this fact.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Xavier-
You can pick any verse you want, leave out others, to make your point. When you put them all together, it still means faith ALONE is insufficient. That’s what Jesus taught, that’s what’s been taught by the Catholic Church for over 2,000 years. This OSAS business is a recent belief relative to the Catholic Church’s teachings.