A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[Roblox84]

Speaking solely for myself, I do not need a crucifix to remind me of the torture and pain that my Saviour endured on the Cross. I can look at an empty Cross, and imagine him writhing in agony, being held there by His love for us! To wear a cruifix gives the impression that He must be put back on it. I totally respect your faith and beliefs, and am trying to understand the need for the crucifix

I have heard a similar story from a pastor in a church that I have been attending. He said that he doesn’t like all the pictures of Jesus that are around because he believes that Jesus was a “strong” and “built” individual due to his profession as a carpenter. He wasn’t a scrawny guy as portrayed in his paintings or pictures. So a lot of individuals belief is based on the particular pastor and his beliefs. Because in that pastors congregation that I just mentioned, there wasn’t a single picture of Christ in the church and the congregation was expected to adhere to the pastors belief. So in your case I would say your opinion is equivalent to your pastors feelings of wether or not cucifixes are wrong.

 

[Xavierlives]

Yes, but Paul also taught and we stil teach today, RESURRECTION!!! Christ died on the Cross(crucifixion). He was removed from the Cross and buried. In three days, he rose(resurrection).So, it is our choice to keep Him off the Cross, since Joseph of Arimethea, and Nicodemus took Him of!

This seems to be a favorite thing to bat around with Catholics and protestants.

 

[Xavierlives]

I have heard a similar story from a pastor in a church that I have been attending. He said that he doesn’t like all the pictures of Jesus that are around because he believes that Jesus was a “strong” and “built” individual due to his profession as a carpenter. He wasn’t a scrawny guy as portrayed in his paintings or pictures. So a lot of individuals belief is based on the particular pastor and his beliefs. Because in that pastors congregation that I just mentioned, there wasn’t a single picture of Christ in the church and the congregation was expected to adhere to the pastors belief. So in your case I would say your opinion is equivalent to your pastors feelings of wether or not cucifixes are wrong.

WHAT? There is a picture of Jesus somewhere?

 

[jlhargus]

The Prodigal was a true son, but he made bad choices. He never denied the Father, but he disrespected the Father’s will for him. Nevertheless, the Father still considered him a true, but disobedient son. The Father prayed for his soul, and the son recovered, developed contrition, and desired ‘reconciliation’. The ‘high priest’ Christ heard his confession and welcomed him back into the Church.

JL: I see you are making up things again. To whom did the Father pray for the prodigal’s soul? The prodigal was a ture son, when he became a prodigal (a waster) he became a dead son, when he returned and confessed his sin he was alive AGAIN. If he was alive AGAIN he must have been alive before. What would have happened to the son, had HIS CHOICE been NOT to reconcile to the father? He would have remained eternally separated from the Father.

Lk15:24 For this my son WAS DEAD, and is ALIVE AGAIN; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. AGAIN, see Strongs Greek definition #326

 

[jlhargus]

As long as the Father knows you WILL return for another contrite confession … will he disown you? The Prodigals situation is no different than many Catholics we both know.

JL: First our Lord NEVER stops loving nor disowns anyone, it is we who chose to disown him by REJECTING his freely given grace, when we chose to commit mortal sin, trampling underfoot his precious blood. Unless we, at some point, accept his freely given grace to repent and confess our sin, we will have chosen to be separated from him eternally. It is OUR choice, not God’s punishment, God allows us what WE chose.

True the prodigal (a waster) son is no different than many Catholics, Protestants, and OSAS Protestants. I have been a prodigal myself.

 

[jlhargus]

ONLY God knows when we have determined of own free will we will not return for confession. Only God knows who is beyond hope. Again, only those who persevere til their last day … are the election of God. True Prodigals come to their senses and are restored to their Father. Those who don’t … are not among the elect.

JL: You contradict yourself again, “True Prodigals come to their senses and are restored to their Father.”] You show the Prodigals are in NEED of being RESTORED to their Father. If they were OSAS why would they NEED to be RESTORED to their Father?

You continue with, – “Those who don’t … are not among the elect.“ --]

So those who RETURN were once saved, otherwise they could not RETURN to what they didn’t first posses. As you post those who will NOT RETURN of their own free will for confession are NOT among the elect. Therefore those who sin after being saved are lost, because they didn’t RETURN and CONFESS. To return you must first have been there. Doesn’t that contradict OSAS?

Again, we can’t always tell about another. Look how Judas fooled the 11. But, did he fool Christ ? God alone knows. That is why we can’t be sure. God has on occasions saved people on their final day … the Good Thief for example.

JL: If you can’t tell then why and how can you judge they were NEVER saved, such as that once street preacher.

Why does this subject bother you so?

JL: Tee hee, it doesn’t bother me, but it should bother you, as it is only a tradition of men made a doctrine of God in the late fifteen hundreds.

 

[jlhargus]

Just be sure about your own salvation. That’s all God expects you to know. And, individuals can be 100% sure about their own status. Christ would not leave us w/o salvation assurance.

JL: When I can see the future infallibly then I can be 100% sure. I bet that OSAS believing street preacher, who is now an atheist, would have said the same 100% sure. Yet he NOW knows he was 100% wrong. Just as he was probably told, many times, by Catholics and the majority of Protestants.

Rms8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Gal6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT.

I will stick with the teachings of the Church, the pillar and ground of truth along with St Paul, one of the great teachers of that pillar and ground of truth.

[Philip3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I MIGHT ATTAIN UNTO THE RESURRECTION of the dead. 12 NOT AS THOUGH I HAD ALREADY ATTAINED, either were already perfect: BUT I FOLLOW AFTER, if THAT I MAY APPREHEND THAT FOR WHICH also I AM APPREHENDED OF CHRIST JESUS. 13 Brethren, I COUNT NOT MYSELF TO HAVE APPREHENDED: but this ONE THING I DO, FORGETTING THOSE THINGS which are BEHIND, and REACHING forth UNTO THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE BEFORE, 14 **I PRESS TOWARD THE MARK FOR THE PRIZE of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.]

He told the Apostles how they could be sure. And, they tell us in scriptures.

JL: Show me, the scripture where Christ told the Apostles how they could be 100% sure. You make a lot of statements yet present NO evidence, can’t you find any?

 

[brb3]

Right now I am in grace. However, I have no absolute assurance that I will perserver to the end, as I don’t know the future. I have confidence I will and I have absolute assurance that Christ will provide the way and grace for me to overcome any temptation.

.

I think you are making excuses … from standpoint of situation ethics.

Doesn’t Paul tell you that he [and thereby you too] is convinced that ‘nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ’ ? Can you think of something that could cause you to fall away … that Paul hasn’t covered in his Apologetic on Salvation Assurance / OSAS ?

 

[brb3]

JL:

When I can see the future infallibly then I can be 100% sure.

Well, we know that’s not in the cards … the ‘fortune-telling’ part.

You’ve got sacred scripture and Spirit of Christ to give you the assurance you need to persevere.

 

[1beleevr]

I have heard a similar story from a pastor in a church that I have been attending. He said that he doesn’t like all the pictures of Jesus that are around because he believes that Jesus was a “strong” and “built” individual due to his profession as a carpenter. He wasn’t a scrawny guy as portrayed in his paintings or pictures. So a lot of individuals belief is based on the particular pastor and his beliefs. Because in that pastors congregation that I just mentioned, there wasn’t a single picture of Christ in the church and the congregation was expected to adhere to the pastors belief. So in your case I would say your opinion is equivalent to your pastors feelings of wether or not cucifixes are wrong.

And sadly, you would be wrong in assuming what my belief is based on! We have pictures of Jesus around our church, along with empty crosses. My belief is my belief just as yours is yours. And do we really know what Jesus looked like? If He walked into your church, would you know Him? My pastor does not put forth any particular doctrine relating to crucifixes; but He says that Jesus is no longer on the Cross, but the Cross is a powerful symbol of His love for us!

 

[jmcrae]

WHAT? There is a picture of Jesus somewhere?

It’s called the Shroud of Turin.

There is also Veronica’s Veil - the one that she wiped His face with, when He was on the way to Golgotha.

 

[jlhargus]

I think you are making excuses … from standpoint of situation ethics.

JL: And I think you are making excuses, for the lack of an answer. Your statement makes no sense, could you give an example of what you mean.

Doesn’t Paul tell you that he [and thereby you too] is convinced that ‘nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ’ ?

JL: Oh I am convinced, nothing can separate us from the LOVE of God. The ONLY thing that can separate us FROM God is OUR FREE WILL choice. [Gal6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.] How many times must we sow to the flesh to reap corruption?

Rms11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,** IF **THOU CONTINUE in his goodness: OTHERWISE THOU also SHALT BE CUT OFF.

Rms8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Gal6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT.

Can you think of something that could cause you to fall away … that Paul hasn’t covered in his Apologetic on Salvation Assurance / OSAS ?

JL: You can’t? [Gal5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.]

How many times must I commit idolatry, before I am guilty of idolatry? How many heresies must I be guilty of before I am a heretic? How many times can I murder, before I am guilty of murder?

 

[jlhargus]

Well, we know that’s not in the cards … the ‘fortune-telling’ part.

You’ve got sacred scripture and Spirit of Christ to give you the assurance you need to persevere.

JL: Show me, the scripture where Christ told the Apostles how they could be 100% sure. You make a lot of statements yet present NO evidence, can’t you find any?

 

[1beleevr]

It’s called the Shroud of Turin.

There is also Veronica’s Veil - the one that she wiped His face with, when He was on the way to Golgotha.

Who is Veronica? And how did they preserve her veil? Have you ever noticed that in almost every picture of Christ, He has long, shiny flowing locks, smooth, beautiful skin, and clean clothes? How does anyone really know what He looked like? We are many times like the Pharisees, concerned about the outside of the cup, and negligent about the inside. It is His heart that makes Him beautiful!

 

[1beleevr]

A focus on one does not mean the Church excludes the other. I think I’m just a little confused as to your objection to crucifixes. Of course, this is way off topic but perhaps you will indulge me. I find issues like this interesting. To me, it seems like a vestige of some old, anti-catholic rhetoric. It seems as though you are implying that Catholics would like to “keep Jesus on the cross” as if we are unaware of the Resurrection. To me, and this is 100% just me, I don’t see the meaning of a cross unless you consider what happened to God upon it. I see a crucifix as a symbol and reminder of God’s love for us. Now, this does not mean that I deny that Jesus rose from the dead after being laid in the Holy Sepulchre.

I completely respect your decision to “keep Him off the Cross”, but from earlier posts I got the feeling that you disapprove of crucifixes. So, what exactly is your objection now that I have explained that the Catholic Church (and me for that matter) wholeheartedly believe in and preach the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ?

When I witness to people during street ministry, about Jesus, a great many of them know about the death of Christ, without the aid of a crucifix! What they want to know, is how to have a personal relationship with Christ, how to walk and talk with Him each day. I guess it is the diffrence between our beliefs, as I see it, I don’t have a NEED to wear a crucifix. Was talking to a catholic on Sunday, and he was wearing one; it repulsed me, but ZIdidn’t say anything to him.

 

[brb3]

True the prodigal (a waster) son is no different than many Catholics, Protestants, and OSAS Protestants. I have been a prodigal myself.

Thank you for making my point ! Every sheep in Christ’s fold, sees themselves in the prodigal story. The Good Shepherd will not lose what the Father has given Him.

 

[brb3]

JL: Oh I am convinced, nothing can separate us from the LOVE of God. The ONLY thing that can separate us FROM God is OUR FREE WILL choice. [Gal6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.] How many times must we sow to the flesh to reap corruption?

Rms11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,** IF **THOU CONTINUE in his goodness: OTHERWISE THOU also SHALT BE CUT OFF.

Rms8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Gal6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT.

Yes, thats why we have S.S. …to remind us of the certainty we will sin … and need to repent of. The Good Shepherd uses these scriptures to bring us BACK into the fold. As Paul teaches in Gal 6:9 … in due season WE SHALL reap. Not we might reap. For those who Abide in Christ, ultimate failure is not an option.

 

[brb3]

[Gal5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.]

How many times must I commit idolatry, before I am guilty of idolatry? How many heresies must I be guilty of before I am a heretic? How many times can I murder, before I am guilty of murder?

Yes, I see drunkenness, revellings and the like … in the Prodigal Son’s experience. And yet, didn’t he inherit the Kingdom ? HOW MANY TIMES MUST I CONFESS OF MY SINS, BEFORE I AM SAVED OF THEM ? one !!! one contrite confession and return to Christ will remove our guilt before God. Don’t be so pessimistic, in Christ there is only optimism, peace, and life eternal. In Christ, failure is not the final outcome.

 

[kempo1]

When I witness to people during street ministry, about Jesus, a great many of them know about the death of Christ, without the aid of a crucifix! What they want to know, is how to have a personal relationship with Christ, how to walk and talk with Him each day. I guess it is the diffrence between our beliefs, as I see it, I don’t have a NEED to wear a crucifix. Was talking to a catholic on Sunday, and he was wearing one; it repulsed me, but ZIdidn’t say anything to him.

Dont mean to butt in but how could you be repulsed at the sight of what your very salvation was brought about by. The very reminder of just what Jesus did for us, the shear magnitude of love and sacrifice. Let me always be reminded of just how powerful the image of Christ on the cross really is and just what it did for me.

 

[brb3]

Show me, the scripture where Christ told the Apostles how they could be 100% sure. You make a lot of statements yet present NO evidence, can’t you find any?

John 17:6 "I have manifested thy name to the men whom THOU GAVEST ME out of the world; THINE THEY WERE, AND THOU GAVEST THEM TO ME, AND THEY HAVE KEPT THY WORD. … & read on to verse 11-12 “And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee, HOLY FATHER, KEEP THEM IN THY NAME, WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE. … I HAVE GUARDED THEM, AND NONE WERE LOST … now to verse 15, … * THAT THOU SHOULDST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL ONE.”

now read on thru verse 25 … which teaches this prayer of Christ is ALSO for ALL Christians, not just the Apostles.

Can you now see the basis for Salvation Assurance & OSAS ? What more do you require, ye of little faith … BELIEVE AND RECEIVE, YOU CAN DO IT *