Good job Pax !! Excellent explanations. Your apologetics are unassailable.
Loss of salvation is not the Father doing anything negative toward the justified. It is instead, those that are justified that have "spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace.
The former is what we do, and the latter is what God does. The Lord is infinitely merciful, but he also has perfect justice. His mercy comes first and then his justice. No one makes a fool of God. We either choose God or we choose ourselves. The Lord ultimately lets us have what we want even if it means turning from his grace as described in the book of Hebrews.
The scales have been gone from my eyes for many years now! And everything you described is beautiful, but Christ still depicted on the Cross is not! He died once for all, the key word being ONCE! The Cross does not have to contain a corpus, to remind us of His love for us! If your child died a horrific death, would want a picture or video of his/her mangled, bloody body, or another memento? I will pray for your scales to be removed from your eyes!
Dying in a horrible way would not be the most important thing my child had ever done. I would seek out a memento that reminded me of my child’s most important actions.
I know that the most important thing He did was die on the Cross for us! But He was removed after His work was done! An empty Cross, still says “I love you this much!”
Humm … “Mercy, then justice” ? And, ‘we choose’ God ?
I think that the first couple of paragraphs of your presentation refer to the unbeliever being brought to faith by God’s grace. I don’t have any particular disagreement with that. My concerns are for those that have been justified and then later lost their way through some form of sin. This can be apostasy or any of the many sins that Paul and the other inspired writers list that lead to death.
Do you wear a necklace with a manger scene?
no I wear a Crucifix and a cross made out of nails…why do you ask?
I know a few that have returned to secular living. I was one of several I know of … in such circumstances. satan is smarter than most of us. We listen to his lies, we accept his proposals as reasonable explanations. he convinced me I had grown up, and that part of maturity was that one’s brotherhood in Christ would of necessity become diminished over time. he convinced me that I should not expect to experience love of God as in the early days. he promised me the love of others, to replace my fellowship in the Lord. he seduced me with worldly pleasures, etc. It starts out so innocently, and over time spirals out of control. We convince ourselves we can help our partners come to God … yet, we are the ones who become trapped by our error, and helpless to really help the other. Without the grace of God … we can do nothing. And, we have lost all God’s grace [partly thru ignorance]… but, mainly by our Prodigal living.
Well, we were having the crucifix/cross discussion and you said that Jesus is no longer in the manger, so why isn’t this emphasized. My point is one interesting demarcation between a Catholic and a protestant is the crucifix/cross usage. Nobody wears a manger scene as jewelry, so that analogy seems misplaced.
Well, if I could add my two cents, we are also talking about a life of sin, or living in sin. It is to that we are a slave. If I perpetually lie, I am a slave to the chief of liars.
Actually he did lose his relationship with the father… temporarily. They were estranged, separated by sin. The story says the son returned to the Father … not vice versa. But, in final analysis, it was probably the Grace of Christ that intervened … drawing the son back to the Father. Christ is our only hope … seeking out the lost sheep of the Father.
Xavierlives in Christ,
If the son had not returned to the household, then he would have continued to be dead to his father. The father would have still considered him to be lost. This speaks volumes to me concerning the issue of OSAS.
The covenantal relationship between the P. son and the Father had been broken. It was lost [temporarily]. In marriage terms, we could say a separation had occurred. Divorced . .? No. God hates divorce, says scripture. Nevertheless, if we continue indefinately in our desire to remain estranged from God … we will someday die a death, in separation from the Father.
Well semantics is always an interesting argument because quite simply, things can be interpreted differently. The beauty in Catholicism is they at least try to keep their ducks in a row. My problem is, the Bible gives examples of people having different beliefs and both being correct, both being led by the Holy Spirit. The Catholics want to say “It is our way, or the highway.” When Catholics recognize that their are other churches, we will have a catholic church.
Xavierlives in Christ,
Why on earth would a manger scene, or Jesus preaching on a hillside repulse me? These are beautiful images! But once the crucifixion is over, there is no NEED to depict Him on the Cross any longer! Christians all know that Jesus died a horrible death on the Cross, for us and was beaten so severely that His face was unrecognizable! So why is this image attractive to you? I f your child was brutally beaten, raped and or tortured, would you want a video that you could watch of it repeatedly? If your preference is to depict Him on the Cross, so be it, but you see, I am in the camp of those who can see an empty Cross, and still know how precious His sacrifice was, and how deep His love IS for us! I am rehearsing for an Easter play, where my character touches the empty Cross, and last night, I was moved to tears, by the power I felt in that moment! Free will, my brother, gives us the option to choose crucifix, or no crucifix! I choose no crucifix; not right, just content in the knowledge that He is not on the Cross, but seated next to God in Heaven!
