A Catholic explanation of John 6

[RNRobert]

On other threads a forum member named believers had disputed the Catholic interpetation of John 6. He (and other Protestants) claim that Jesus was only speaking symbolically when he said his flesh was real food and his blood realy drink.
But was he?
In John 3, when Jesus tells Nicodemus, “You must be born again,” Nicodemus is confused and asks how a grown man can reenter his mother’s womb. Jesus corrects him and says one is born again by water and the Spirit. However, when Jesus calls himself the bread of life, the Jews start to quarrel and ask how Jesus can give his flesh to eat (v. 52). Jesus tells them again (vv 53-55) that his flesh is real food and his blood real drink, and whoever eats his flesh and drinks his blood remains in HIm and will be raised up at the last day. At this point, even his disciples complain that this is “a hard saying” (v. 60) and walk away. If Jesus was only speaking symbolically, why then did Jesus not call them back and tell them he was only speaking metaphorically?
Protestants use verse 63 (“It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail”) as proof that Our Lord was only speaking metaphorically. This is incorrect. First, if Jesus flesh “was of no avail,” then what good was it for Him to take on flesh and die on the cross for our sins? Secondly, Jesus was talking about the inability of the flesh to understand things of the spirit; as he told Nicodemus in John 3:12 "If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?
Finally, we can see the Catholic view of the Eucharist validated in Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians. He tells them that those who partake unworthily of the Eucharist will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord and eat and drink judgement upon themselves (older Bibles like the Protestant King James and the Catholic Douay-Rheims use the word “damnation”), and that unworthily partaking of Communion is why many of the Corinthian believers were sick or dead. How could this be if the Eucharist was merely a symbol? If you rip up a picture of President Bush, are you guilty of the “body and blood” of the president? No!
So, Scripture plainly shows that the Catholic view of the Eucharist is the correct one.

 

[BrianH]

John 6 is all about eternal life.

 

[BrianH]

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”*
32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Rejected by His Own
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, *“Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who *has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes *in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is *food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven–not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Turn Away
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the *Christ, the Son of the living God

 

[BrianH]

and whoever eats his flesh and drinks his blood remains in HIm and will be raised up at the last day.

So your interpretation of this verse is that every person who eats his flesh and drinks his blood will have eternal life?
Please answer using the verse you just quoted.

RN RobertAt this point, even his disciples complain that this is “a hard saying” (v. 60) and walk away

.

RNRobert
If Jesus was only speaking symbolically, why then did Jesus not call them back and tell them he was only speaking metaphorically?

Lets look at the verses again

Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

disciples ask for clarification.

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Jesus explains.

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more

Disciples leave.

 

[RNRobert]

If John 6 is simply about eternal life, and not about the Real Presence, then why did he let the Jews and disciples walk away? Even the Apostles did not understand until the last supper.
In John 6, the Greek word when Jesus talks about eating his flesh is trogon, which means to munch or gnaw. Also, I believe in Mid-Eastern culture, to eat someones flesh means to calumniate them. Was this what Jesus meant, or did he simply mean what he said, that eating his flesh and drinking his blood would give eternal life. As St Ignatius of Antioch, who learned his faith from none other than the Apostle John himself, said of certain heretics that they “absent themselves from the Eucharist…because they will not admit that the Eucharist is the selfsame body of our Savior Jesus Christ.” He also referred to the Eucharist as “The medicine of immortality**,** and the sovereign remedy by which we escape death and live in Jesus Christ for evermore.” Apparently the early church took Jesus’ words literally.

 

[BrianH]

If John 6 is simply about eternal life, and not about the Real Presence, then why did he let the Jews and disciples walk away? Even the Apostles did not understand until the last supper.

Do you agree that John 6:60 is asking for clarification?

As far as Ignatius, and you did quote him, and this is I understand a question that may take awhile to find, what year was your translation of Ignatius found and how old is the actual document you quote? Yes, I understand you believe it came from Ignatius circa 106 AD. Please tell me what actual year the document you found is from. 360 AD? 600 AD?
Thank you
Nice discussion. I will behave myself.

 

[Spirit_Driven]

You can partake in the Eucherist at home, or any other social gathering out side of Church if you like… provided you are doing so ONLY in memory of Jesus.
No need for Preists to bless this that or the other.

If you do it for any other reason… which includes any sort of ceremoney promoted as increasing your right standing with God… then you are eating and drinking unworthily.

The Doctrine of Self Righteousness is another Doctrine of the Demon.

Peace

 

[RNRobert]

Do you agree that John 6:60 is asking for clarification?

 

[BrianH]

, published by Penguin and edited by Maxwell Staniforth, a Protestant. It didn’t mention the date of the manuscript.
Understood. I contend it is interpolated. The content does not match early church documents like Clement, Polycarp and so forth. That aside, I do recognize this letter could come from an individual, one individual, 75 years after Christ.

Of course, we could take issue with Scripture as well, since we no longer have the original manuscripts.

And many have. I do not think Christians have substantial differences based upon controversial or possible interpolations.

The Orthodox also believe in the Real Presence (although they don’t use the term transubstantiation). It wasn’t until Luther’s revolt that Christians believed differently (even Luther believed in the Real Pressence, although not in the same way as Catholic belief).

Very good. Now, once again

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

We dont get is Jesus, we do not understand they are saying

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

So he explains

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

Disciples leave

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life

Simon Peter sums it up in one sentence.

 

[Spirit_Driven]

Satan has a lot of people jumping through hoops out there, thinking that they are increasing their right standing with God, or maintaining thier right standing with God etc.

The reality is God is no respector of persons, there is no human being with a higher state of Grace with God than Adam, from the moment Jesus Christ died on the Cross at Calvary.

 

[Keikiolu]

Satan has a lot of people jumping through hoops out there, thinking that they are increasing their right standing with God, or maintaining thier right standing with God etc.

The reality is God is no respector of persons, there is no human being with a higher state of Grace with God than Adam, from the moment Jesus Christ died on the Cross at Calvary.

Since we have no free will anyway, nor can do anything to “please God”, why should we bother doing anything at all?

 

[JoeyWarren]

v60. “disciples” Not just the Apostles, but many others as well. Recall that this group was described in Jn 6:22 as a crowd. This event is taking place very shortly after the feeding of the 5,000 (or 4,000 if you proceed to this point from the Gospels of Matthew and Mark) and many were attracted to Jesus. “a hard saying” Jesus has made many claims: He is the messiah, or at least a prophet – but we know his family; He is the Bread of Life – but He looks like a human; He gives eternal life – but this is something only God can do; you must eat His Flesh – this is cannibalism; you must drink His Blood – this is forbidden by law; and to top it all off, He has said all this as a covenant oath (Amen, Amen)! “who can listen to it?” Break out the straight jacket, this guy’s gone off the deep end! This sounds like the ravings of a mad man!

v61. “Do you take offence at this?” Do you think this is hard to believe?

v62. “Then what if you were to see” If you think that was hard, try this on for size! You haven’t even heard the hardest part yet! Jesus doesn’t make any attempt to go back and smooth things out; correct misunderstandings, because they don’t misunderstand. They simply don’t believe what they are hearing. Recall, back in verse 29 Jesus said “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” If you don’t believe in Him, then you won’t believe what He is saying. The role of the prophet, which is who some think He is, is to speak God’s words. Some of the crowd don’t believe and now He is going to make one final appeal; an appeal that will separate the wheat from the chaff, one final prophetic image. Some on the borderline will be convinced and the unbelievers are going to fall away. “Son of man ascending” Predicts His own ascension. To the Jewish listener this would most probably recall the assumption of Enoch (Gen 5:24), Elijah (2 Kg 2:11), or Moses who according to Hebrew tradition was taken to heaven by God after his death which is why his grave has never been found (Deut 34:6). Any one of these three instances would have called to mind a prophet; someone sent by God, someone who spoke God’s words.

v63. “It is the spirit that gives life” It is the grace of God given by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that gives a spiritual life (2 Cor 3:6; 1 Cor 15:45-47; Jn 3:6). “the flesh is of no avail” A body without a Spirit is dead. Note that He doesn’t say “my flesh” which is the subject of the Eucharistic passage, but “the flesh” of Jn 3:6 and 8:15. Throughout this discourse they have been asking for food for their flesh and He has been offering spiritual food. “the words” “Believe in Him whom He has sent”, “eat My Flesh”, “drink My Blood”. If you believe, then you will be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8). If you eat and drink His Body and Blood, then you will receive everlasting life. Jesus is alive, His Flesh and Blood are not separate, both are present in the Eucharist. His Body and Blood can not be separated; He has ascended.

 

[JoeyWarren]

v64. “there are some” Jesus acknowledges their unbelief. He doesn’t try a new approach to convince them. There is only one approach and understanding; either you believe it or you don’t. Judas was one of the unbelievers.

v65. “no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father” See verse 44 comments. It is a free gift but you have to be open to receive it.

v66. “many of the disciples drew back and no longer went with him” Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of souls left; turned their backs on Jesus and eternal life. If Jesus had not been speaking literally, this was His last chance to correct their misunderstanding. Since He didn’t, we have absolute assurance that their literal understanding is the correct one. This is the only incident recorded in Holy Scripture where anyone stops being a follower of Jesus for a reason of doctrine.

v67. “Jesus said to the twelve” Jesus addresses all the Apostles directly. “Will you also go away?” He doesn’t say “They misunderstood me, go and bring them back so I can explain it to them”. When He spoke in parables to the people, He explained everything to the Apostles in private (Mk 4:34). Here, He doesn’t attempt to change His teaching or explain it further; even to His most intimate friends. Instead, He simply asks if they have so little faith that they will leave too.

v68. “Simon Peter answered him” Peter, chosen by Jesus to be the chief Apostle (Mt 16:19), acts as spokesman for the entire group. “to whom shall we go?” If we had a choice, we would leave too, but there is no other choice. We know you have come from God. You speak the words of God (Jn 3:34; 17:8). We don’t fully understand your message, but we have enough faith in You because of He who sent You that we’ll stay with You. “You have the words of eternal life” You have given us God’s promise of eternal life. ‘Eat My Flesh, drink My Blood’, these actions truly give us eternal life.

v69. “the Holy One of God” This is not necessarily a messianic title. Prophets were also given this title; but He certainly was sent by God. Although the Apostles have not yet come to know Christ in all His fullness, they are on the way to this knowledge. They have not only seen Him, but realize that He has been sent by God and because of that they believe everything He has said; not fully understanding, but accepting it because of their faith in Him (verses 37 and 40).
v70. “a devil” Judas will be acting under diabolic influence (see Jn 13:2; Lk 22:3).

 

[JoeyWarren]

Satan has a lot of people jumping through hoops out there, thinking that they are increasing their right standing with God, or maintaining thier right standing with God etc.

The reality is God is no respector of persons, there is no human being with a higher state of Grace with God than Adam, from the moment Jesus Christ died on the Cross at Calvary.

Yes Satan has you jumping thru hoops indeed. He has you trying in earnest trying to make it symbolic…

 

[JoeyWarren]

Part 1 - a piece on Paul’s Discernment.

After reading 1 Cor. 11:27 about Paul’s warning about discerning, I had to revisit John 6 and read again the bread of life discourse.

His listeners were stupefied because now they understood Jesus literally—and correctly. He again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him” (John 6:53–56).

Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct “misunderstandings,” for there were none. Our Lord’s listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically. If they had, if they mistook what he said, why no correction?

On other occasions when there was confusion, Christ explained just what he meant (cf. Matt. 16:5–12). Here, where any misunderstanding would be fatal, there was no effort by Jesus to correct. Instead, he repeated himself for greater emphasis.

In John 6:60 we read: “Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’” These were his disciples, people used to his remarkable ways. He warned them not to think carnally, but spiritually: “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” (John 6:63; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12–14).

v63. “It is the spirit that gives life” It is the grace of God given by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that gives a spiritual life (2 Cor 3:6; 1 Cor 15:45-47; Jn 3:6). “the flesh is of no avail” A body without a Spirit is dead. Note that He doesn’t say “my flesh” which is the subject of the Eucharistic passage, but “the flesh” of Jn 3:6 and 8:15. Throughout this discourse they have been asking for food for their flesh and He has been offering spiritual food. “the words” “Believe in Him whom He has sent”, “eat My Flesh”, “drink My Blood”. If you believe, then you will be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8). If you eat and drink His Body and Blood, then you will receive everlasting life. Jesus is alive, His Flesh and Blood are not separate, both are present in the Eucharist. His Body and Blood can not be separated; He has ascended.

But he knew some did not believe. (It is here, in the rejection of the Eucharist, that Judas fell away; look at John 6:64.) “After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him” (John 6:66).

This is the only record we have of any of Christ’s followers forsaking him for purely doctrinal reasons. If it had all been a misunderstanding, if they erred in taking a metaphor in a literal sense, why didn’t he call them back and straighten things out? Both the Jews, who were suspicious of him, and his disciples, who had accepted everything up to this point, would have remained with him had he said he was speaking only symbolically.

But he did not correct these protesters. Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have “to eat my flesh and drink my blood.” John 6 was an extended promise of what would be instituted at the Last Supper—and it was a promise that could not be more explicit. Or so it would seem to a Catholic. But what do Fundamentalists say?

v66. “many of the disciples drew back and no longer went with him” Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of souls left; turned their backs on Jesus and eternal life. If Jesus had not been speaking literally, this was His last chance to correct their misunderstanding. Since He didn’t, we have absolute assurance that their literal understanding is the correct one. This is the only incident recorded in Holy Scripture where anyone stops being a follower of Jesus for a reason of doctrine.

 

[Spirit_Driven]

Since we have no free will anyway, nor can do anything to “please God”, why should we bother doing anything at all?

Our Purpose is soley and only to announce Gods great plan of salvation… we have the freedom of will to believe it or not.

It wont matter in the end… God always gets his way.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Part 2 of Paul’s Discernment.

v68. “Simon Peter answered him” Peter, chosen by Jesus to be the chief Apostle (Mt 16:19), acts as spokesman for the entire group. “to whom shall we go?” If we had a choice, we would leave too, but there is no other choice. We know you have come from God. You speak the words of God (Jn 3:34; 17:8). We don’t fully understand your message, but we have enough faith in You because of He who sent You that we’ll stay with You. “You have the words of eternal life” You have given us God’s promise of eternal life. ‘Eat My Flesh, drink My Blood’, these actions truly give us eternal life.

This was another turning point in my belief as a Baptist.

For 27 years I have heard this story in Luke 24 about Opening of the Scripture to their minds. Every single Pastor I have heard preach this stops short of verse 35.

Quote:
Luk 24:35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
Some Pastors have even been to so bold to misquote this in this manner:

Quote:
Luk 24:35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in opening of the Scripture to their mind

Breaking of the Bread?

This was one heck of an event if

Quote:
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

They recognized him as the Christ not because they were made known the Scriptures, but in the BREAKING OF THE BREAD. And these guys were not part of the Last Supper bunch. They were outsiders. The Last Supper’s breaking of the bread is more significant then scripture.

Then we have the other references to the BREAKING OF THE BREAD which occur after the Ressurection:

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to breakbread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Act 20:11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.

1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread

 

[JoeyWarren]

Part 3 of Paul’s Discernment:

which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1CO 10:16 was never read to me by any Pastor in 27 years.

15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

WHY WOULD SOMEONE BLESS A SYMBOLIC IDEA? ONE CAN ONLY BLESS SOMETHING LITERAL AND TANGIBLE. THERE’S THAT CATHOLIC WORD AGAIN! COMMUNION!

Paul is blessing a physical thing. He is blessing an actual cup. And is blessing actual bread.

PAUL IS SAYING THE WINE IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. PAUL IS SAYING THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

A CLEAR INDICATION OF THIS CATHOLIC PHENOMENON KNOWN AS THE “SACIFICE OF THE MASS”. PAUL IS CALLING ON THEM TO OFFER A SACRIFICE TO GOD IN THE FORM OF THE WINE AND BREAD.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.

SELF EVIDENT.

Then we come upon this verse in the same epistle:

“Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself” (1 Cor. 11:27

WHy would Paul have to examine his conscience for mere Bread and wine? Why would Paul have to examine his conscience for a symbolic idea?

Ignatious of Antioch did not think it was mere bread or a symbolic idea:

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire His blood, which is love incorruptible.” St. Ignatius of Antioch (“Epistle to the Romans,” c. 105 A.D.)

“Heretics abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ.” St. Ignatius of Antioch (“Epistle to the Smyrneans,” c. 105 A.D.)

For those that do not know, Ignatius was a known Desciple of John the Apostle. Ignatius wrote what he learned from John.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life

Simon Peter sums it up in one sentence.

So even Jesus’s (interpreted) spoken words are EXPLAINED and OVERRULED by Jesus Himself.

The first “papa” trumps His own words as transmitted (spoken which is an analog of written)…!!

Imagine,… scripture (His words as transmitted) INTERPRETED by the divine authority…!!

What does that sound like to you?

Even Jesus’s SPOKEN WORDS, which can be misinterpreted by those not authorized to do so, are granted interpretation BY JESUS (the authority) simply because there is no other authority POSSIBLE to do so.

In other words, Peter (at least) sees the wisdom and truth in defering to the proper authority because NONE OTHER EXISTS.

If Peter defers to the proper authority when in a difficult interpretational position, why should we not do so?

So,… it all hinges on who the proper authority is at any particular time,… but is that authority EVER YOU?

Why?

 

[JoeyWarren]

So, when I make John 6 symbolic, this sounds logical to you, Believers?

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is a cracker which will symbolize my flesh, for the life of the world. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us a cracker to eat as symbol of his flesh ? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, Amen I say unto you: Except you eat a cracker which is a symbol of the flesh of the Son of man, and **drink grape juice **as a symbol of his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that **eateth a cracker **which is a symbol of my flesh , and **drinketh grape juice **which is a symbol of my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

56 For a cracker as symbol of my flesh is meat indeed: and **grape juice **as a symbol of my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth a cracker as a symbol of my flesh, and drinketh **grape juice **as a symbol of my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me in symbolic form as crackers and grape juice, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread which is symbolic crackers and grape juice, shall live for ever. 60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying that we must eat **crackers and drink grape juice **to symbolize his Body and Blood is hard, and who can hear it? 62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you to hear me say that you must to **eat crackers and drink grape juice **as a symbol of my Body and Blood? 63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

64 It is the spirit that quickeneth:the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. 65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him. And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. 66 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 68 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

Questions for those who think the Body and Blood were ‘merely symbolic.’ Why did disciples leave and follow no more simply over a ‘ceremony?’ What is there that is scandalous about a ‘symbolic ceremony?’ They didn’t have time to celebrate it? It would add too much extra time to the Sunday service and people wouldn’t be able to get home in time to remove the pot roast from the oven? What?

You must explain the reaction of the listeners. It doesn’t jive with the “symbolic explanation.”