A Catholic Look at Mormanism

[RebeccaJ]

And his Ender series became more and more tedious while painting a grotesque picture of Catholicism. I read the first three of the series and was so disappointed and exasperated by the third book that I never read another of his books. I must have 4 or 5 of his books, my extended family has always been great about giving me books by authors that I’m reading and Card was no exception so I have them but I won’t be reading them. He may well have written other more entertaining books but after the tedium, lame plot twists, and dangling plots, and his ugly presentation of Catholicism in the last one I read I won’t be bothering with Card again.

I read them when I was an atheist and recall nothing about Catholicism. But then at the time, I wouldn’t have known if something were Catholic or not. That is one of the interesting things about being Catholic now, all the stuff I find that is referenced from, by or about Catholicism. Lots of aha moments, about things I didn’t see before, at all.

I’m not going to go back and read them though. I enjoyed reading them at the time, and I used to read a lot of scifi/fantasy, but now I find all of the genre tedious. I haven’t been able to make it through one in years.

I tried to read Stephanie Meyers’ teenage vampire books, because my daughter was into them. I couldn’t do it, and then fell asleep in the movie, the movie being as tedious as the books. That one struck me that she was incorporating Mormon gods as vampires…all light and goodness and even chaste. I found the behavior of the main male character to be ridiculously manipulative, and little girls all over swooning over him. bleh.

The newest teenagers-fighting-to-the-death story is Hunger Games, I just read it because it is a hot topic among the field I work in and so wanted to see what all the fuss is about. It wasn’t quite as bad as shiny teenage vampires fighting to the death. I actually made it through the whole thing, but can’t find enough interest to read the next one.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,

It’s complicated, but “welcome to life–it’s complicated”.

The children are sealed to their mother if she had a temple sealing.

“Mom” can only have the first sealing “cancelled” if she had divorced the first husband, and then it’s not automatically granted.

Families who qualify through their faithfulness and love, for the Celestial Kingdom, certainly won’t have the kinds of unkindly attitudes and misunderstandings as are here on this earth.

So the children are sealed to the mom but not their dad. This leaves them sealed to their mother and because of her sealing to her deceased husband they are now sealed to someone they had no relationship with and their dad is left out in the cold.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So the children are sealed to the mom but not their dad. This leaves them sealed to their mother and because of her sealing to her deceased husband they are now sealed to someone they had no relationship with and their dad is left out in the cold.

My nephew was sealed to his mother and step-father. This is a choice he made, when he was an adult. IMO, it supports the fracture of a family, and creates dysfunctional relationships. FAMILY is an ideal for Mormons that is worked to be achieved. If it isn’t achieved in this life, they believe it can be achieved in the next.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I read them when I was an atheist and recall nothing about Catholicism. But then at the time, I wouldn’t have known if something were Catholic or not. That is one of the interesting things about being Catholic now, all the stuff I find that is referenced from, by or about Catholicism. Lots of aha moments, about things I didn’t see before, at all.

I’m not going to go back and read them though. I enjoyed reading them at the time, and I used to read a lot of scifi/fantasy, but now I find all of the genre tedious. I haven’t been able to make it through one in years.

I tried to read Stephanie Meyers’ teenage vampire books, because my daughter was into them. I couldn’t do it, and then fell asleep in the movie, the movie being as tedious as the books. That one struck me that she was incorporating Mormon gods as vampires…all light and goodness and even chaste. I found the behavior of the main male character to be ridiculously manipulative, and little girls all over swooning over him. bleh.

The newest teenagers-fighting-to-the-death story is Hunger Games, I just read it because it is a hot topic among the field I work in and so wanted to see what all the fuss is about. It wasn’t quite as bad as shiny teenage vampires fighting to the death. I actually made it through the whole thing, but can’t find enough interest to read the next one.

Fantasy aside from Tolkien and some that poke fun at the genre (Terry Brooks if I remember right) has not had much of a hold on me though I did read a lot of it as a kid. The teenage vampire romance novels have no appeal for me and I’ve lucked out there because none of my girls has had any interest either so I’ve had no reason to take them up. My oldest is reading the Dragon Riders books I enjoyed them and still have some of the ones I had so that has been fun. The Shadow Children series is one my younger girls are reading and I have read some along with them they’ve been the starting point for conversations about the role of government, abortion, the value of human life and many other interesting subjects. I would call the Shadow Children SciFi (or future fantasy maybe) and I really have enjoyed, and still do SciFi. Much of it has been thought provoking, addressing things like cloning, designer babies, extending human life, the effect of multinational corporations or genetic testing on society long before we could actually do some of these things. It may seem strange but in reading Science Fiction I have become convinced that The Church is indeed “expert in humanity”

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,

It’s complicated, but “welcome to life–it’s complicated”.

The children are sealed to their mother if she had a temple sealing.

“Mom” can only have the first sealing “cancelled” if she had divorced the first husband, and then it’s not automatically granted.

Families who qualify through their faithfulness and love, for the Celestial Kingdom, certainly won’t have the kinds of unkindly attitudes and misunderstandings as are here on this earth.

It’s only complicated because the LDS church makes it so, no one else has such messy complications.

 

[theidler]

It’s only complicated because the LDS church makes it so, no one else has such messy complications.

Really? Try being a Seventh-Day Adventist like I was

 

[zaffiroborant]

Really? Try being a Seventh-Day Adventist like I was

I don’t doubt the complications you allude to but I’m talking about a complication specific to LDS “theology”. Do SDA’s send people off to different heavens according to whether or not people were married and assign kids to family units because those are the units set up on earth? I don’t know anything about SDA (other than the nasty stuff they’ve left at my house) but I thought in general they had the same understanding of the after life, yes?

 

[theidler]

I don’t doubt the complications you allude to but I’m talking about a complication specific to LDS “theology”. Do SDA’s send people off to different heavens according to whether or not people were married and assign kids to family units because those are the units set up on earth? I don’t know anything about SDA (other than the nasty stuff they’ve left at my house) but I thought in general they had the same understanding of the after life, yes?

No, their view of the afterlife is quite different. They hold to such doctrines as soul sleep, annihilationism, investigative judgments, etc. etc.
Although LDS afterlife doctrines are pretty…exhausting sounding.

 

[theidler]

Zaffiroborant,

It’s complicated, but “welcome to life–it’s complicated”.

The children are sealed to their mother if she had a temple sealing.

“Mom” can only have the first sealing “cancelled” if she had divorced the first husband, and then it’s not automatically granted.

Families who qualify through their faithfulness and love, for the Celestial Kingdom, certainly won’t have the kinds of unkindly attitudes and misunderstandings as are here on this earth.

I wish you were on the forum here more ParkerD, I’m quite interested to hear your thoughts on all this.

 

[SteveVH]

Zaffiroborant,

It’s complicated, but “welcome to life–it’s complicated”.

The children are sealed to their mother if she had a temple sealing.

“Mom” can only have the first sealing “cancelled” if she had divorced the first husband, and then it’s not automatically granted.

Families who qualify through their faithfulness and love, for the Celestial Kingdom, certainly won’t have the kinds of unkindly attitudes and misunderstandings as are here on this earth.

Its complicated because in reality it makes no sense. There is only one wedding in heaven and that is between the Lamb and His Bride, the Church. This is exactly why the Sadducees used this as a basis for their argument against the resurrection in an attempt to trip up Jesus; because marriage in heaven makes no sense, especially when it comes to multiple wives or husbands. And we all know Jesus’ response.

 

[ParkerD]

I wish you were on the forum here more ParkerD, I’m quite interested to hear your thoughts on all this.

theidler,

When a child in the kind of situation described by Zaffiroborant is given the explanation about sealings that they should receive if an adult is attentive to any misunderstanding they might have, then that child will come to understand that being sealed to their mother and her first marriage, means they are sealed to their whole ancestral lines and thus become part of a much larger picture than just their own immediate family. Those sealings will eventually go all the way back to Abraham, who was given the great promises about his posterity, and to Adam, who is the Ancient of Days and of course has a great interest in his posterity and that as many as will come unto Christ be blessed by doing that.

The sealing blessings involve eternal blessings that center on the atonement of Jesus Christ, which has one of its meanings as “becoming at one” with Jesus Christ and with all of His covenant followers. Those sealing blessings involve extended families, who strengthen each other here in this world and also in the spirit world, if they learn to forgive, to build, and to love.

As far as the second husband, if he had received the inspiration that guided him to the marriage he chose, then I have to assume he will be given the opportunity for an eternal marriage covenant just as children who died young will have that same future opportunity. He will have learned the many lessons marriage provides in this life, and will have shown his faithfulness through being faithful as the best father he can be to the family he married into.

 

[theidler]

theidler,

When a child in the kind of situation described by Zaffiroborant is given the explanation about sealings that they should receive if an adult is attentive to any misunderstanding they might have, then that child will come to understand that being sealed to their mother and her first marriage, means they are sealed to their whole ancestral lines and thus become part of a much larger picture than just their own immediate family. Those sealings will eventually go all the way back to Abraham, who was given the great promises about his posterity, and to Adam, who is the Ancient of Days and of course has a great interest in his posterity and that as many as will come unto Christ be blessed by doing that.

The sealing blessings involve eternal blessings that center on the atonement of Jesus Christ, which has one of its meanings as “becoming at one” with Jesus Christ and with all of His covenant followers. Those sealing blessings involve extended families, who strengthen each other here in this world and also in the spirit world, if they learn to forgive, to build, and to love.

As far as the second husband, if he had received the inspiration that guided him to the marriage he chose, then I have to assume he will be given the opportunity for an eternal marriage covenant just as children who died young will have that same future opportunity. He will have learned the many lessons marriage provides in this life, and will have shown his faithfulness through being faithful as the best father he can be to the family he married into.

Well, to be honest Parker, I’m not really that interested in the whole sealing idea, so much as what your thoughts are on the authenticity of the Book of Mormon - my main question, which has thus far remained unanswered is this:
If the Book of Mormon is written by several different prophets over a fairly lengthy period of time, why is it that the narrative voice in the entire BoM sounds exactly the same? I’m coming at this as a writer myself. The voice throughout the BoM is identical to me - there is no difference between the writing style of Alma as opposed to Nephi as opposed to anyone else in the collection of writings.
I ask respectfully of course.

 

[ParkerD]

Well, to be honest Parker, I’m not really that interested in the whole sealing idea, so much as what your thoughts are on the authenticity of the Book of Mormon - my main question, which has thus far remained unanswered is this:
If the Book of Mormon is written by several different prophets over a fairly lengthy period of time, why is it that the narrative voice in the entire BoM sounds exactly the same? I’m coming at this as a writer myself. The voice throughout the BoM is identical to me - there is no difference between the writing style of Alma as opposed to Nephi as opposed to anyone else in the collection of writings.
I ask respectfully of course.

theidler,

The “narrative voices” do indeed change; the word usages change from author to author or speaker to speaker; there are poetic voices and less poetic voices; there are some of the writers who write in longer thought patterns than others of the writers and speakers.

If you would like, you can present an example of two passages where you think the “voice” is the same voice from Alma and Nephi, and this is something that really can be evaluated by comparing passages and word and sentence patterns.

 

[theidler]

theidler,

The “narrative voices” do indeed change; the word usages change from author to author or speaker to speaker; there are poetic voices and less poetic voices; there are some of the writers who write in longer thought patterns than others of the writers and speakers.

If you would like, you can present an example of two passages where you think the “voice” is the same voice from Alma and Nephi, and this is something that really can be evaluated by comparing passages and word and sentence patterns.

That’s a good idea actually. In the meantime, can you give an example of where the narrative voice does change in an obvious “poetic” fashion as you say??
Thanks~!

 

[ParkerD]

That’s a good idea actually. In the meantime, can you give an example of where the narrative voice does change in an obvious “poetic” fashion as you say??
Thanks~!

theidler,

If one reads the writings of Nephi in 1 Nephi and 2 Nephi, and then compares Nephi’s writing style with the writing style of Jacob in 2 Nephi 9 and in the book of Jacob (except for Jacob 5 which contains an allegory written by a prophet Zenos whose writings were on the Brass plates), then one finds a distinctly different voice. Enos also has a distinctive voice. Jacob uses more “poetic” and descriptive language, with longer thought patterns in his writing than the general pattern of Nephi’s writing. Enos has a much simpler writing style than either Nephi or Jacob, even though Enos was Jacob’s son and Nephi and Jacob were brothers.

Another significant example is the speaking style of Alma as compared with the speaking style of Amulek. Alma speaks in Alma 5, Alma 9, Alma 12 and 13, and writes in Alma 32. Amulek speaks in Alma 34 and Alma 11, and the speaking styles are different than from how Alma speaks in terms of word patterns and usage. King Benjamin, who speaks as recorded in Mosiah 3 and 4, also has a distinctive speaking word usage pattern and an eloquence all his own.

 

[Khalid]

Well, to be honest Parker, I’m not really that interested in the whole sealing idea, so much as what your thoughts are on the authenticity of the Book of Mormon - my main question, which has thus far remained unanswered is this:
If the Book of Mormon is written by several different prophets over a fairly lengthy period of time, why is it that the narrative voice in the entire BoM sounds exactly the same? I’m coming at this as a writer myself. The voice throughout the BoM is identical to me - there is no difference between the writing style of Alma as opposed to Nephi as opposed to anyone else in the collection of writings.
I ask respectfully of course.

The Book of Mormon has been computer-analyzed (in an attempt to determine Spaldingite and/or Rigdonite authorship), and I believe it was determined with nearly complete certainty that the book was by either three or four authors with the hands of either one or two editors or redactors detected (possibly the same as the authors), along with another redactor or set of redactors when comparing a first-edition BoM with a modern edition. I’m not sure where I read this, so I can’t link to it, but it probably can be found by searching for “computer analysis book of mormon” or “statistical analysis book of mormon”. I believe the LDS use this in some form of apologetic to try and make the analysis show that, “of course that’s what would be apparent if there actually were gold plates translated through looking at a stone in a hat when the plates were buried.”

Then what about the first 116 pages and the Kinderhook plates? and the mistranslation of the Egyptian funerary papyri for Abraham?

Parker: God is the Ancient of Days.

 

[theidler]

The Book of Mormon has been computer-analyzed (in an attempt to determine Spaldingite and/or Rigdonite authorship), and I believe it was determined with nearly complete certainty that the book was by either three or four authors with the hands of either one or two editors or redactors detected (possibly the same as the authors), along with another redactor or set of redactors when comparing a first-edition BoM with a modern edition. I’m not sure where I read this, so I can’t link to it, but it probably can be found by searching for “computer analysis book of mormon” or “statistical analysis book of mormon”. I believe the LDS use this in some form of apologetic to try and make the analysis show that, “of course that’s what would be apparent if there actually were gold plates translated through looking at a stone in a hat when the plates were buried.”

Then what about the first 116 pages and the Kinderhook plates? and the mistranslation of the Egyptian funerary papyri for Abraham?

Parker: God is the Ancient of Days.

Very interesting…I found a link to some info here:
religioustolerance.org/ldsbom1.htm

 

[zaffiroborant]

theidler,

When a child in the kind of situation described by Zaffiroborant is given the explanation about sealings that they should receive if an adult is attentive to any misunderstanding they might have, then that child will come to understand that being sealed to their mother and her first marriage, means they are sealed to their whole ancestral lines and thus become part of a much larger picture than just their own immediate family. .

How are children of the second marriage sealed to their whole ancestral line if they are sealed to only their mother and through her to the dead husband they are not related to??? Their whole ancestral line would have to include their father not some man they are not related to.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Parker: God is the Ancient of Days.

Well it makes sense when you throw in Brigham Young’s “Adam=God” theory.

 

[ParkerD]

Very interesting…I found a link to some info here:
religioustolerance.org/ldsbom1.htm

theidler,

If you are indeed a writer and have a background in English literature and language usage, then I suggest that you have a better background for making your own literary and contextual analyses than doing the kinds of computer analyses that are included in those studies.

For example, when literary scholars have tried to figure out whether Shakespeare’s plays were written by the person named William Shakespeare (who had no other piece of writing to compare to), or by someone else such as Francis Bacon or de Vere or another author using the name of William Shakespeare to conceal himself, (because he may have had a reason to want to not identify himself), then they look at the actual writing, the language, the usage patterns and literary style, and other elements they can compare in the writing.