A caution from Archbishop Chaput: dishonest mercy helps no one

  • Thread starter Thread starter _Abyssinia
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
JimR-OCDS said:
Of course those people of faith who have not repented and are living in the state of mortal sin should not receive Holy Communion.

But then, the Church has to provide an avenue for those who are contrite, to receive Holy Communion.

Also, keep this in mind when you tell a couple who were divorced and have been happily married and have had children together, for the past 40 years, that they’re living in mortal sin and think about how Jesus would treat them ?

This is what Pope Francis is mulling over.

Jim
Click to expand...
So this couple is not living in Mortal Sin?
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Using your own handle, in the story of the Prodigal Son, did the father wait for his son to repent, or did he run out to him the moment he saw him coming home ?

Jim
Click to expand...
Jim, c’mon.

The son is moved to conversion and repentance, to return to his Father’s love. Let’s absorb the whole Gospel, not just the parts that support our contentions.

Yes his Father is waiting for him the whole time. Does the Father prevent him from going?
Does the Father run out and save him from his stupid choices?
Does he force him back at the point of a gun?

Do we have a reciprocal relationship with God, or does he rape us???
What do you say?

Does the prodigal son make a choice to love his Father, or is he raped by God?

Yes, rape. Think about the implications of this philosophy of grace forced upon human beings.

Nonsense !
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Using your own handle, in the story of the Prodigal Son, did the father wait for his son to repent, or did he run out to him the moment he saw him coming home ?

Jim
Click to expand...
The son repented and with a contrite heart saw the erro of his ways and went back to his father where he was waiting with open arms to receive, forgive him, and fill him with his grace.

If the SOn would not have come home(repented) The Father would have kept waiting patiently until he did repent.
 
clem456 said:
Jim, c’mon.

The son is moved to conversion and repentance, to return to his Father’s love. Let’s absorb the whole Gospel, not just the parts that support our contentions.

Yes his Father is waiting for him the whole time. Does the Father prevent him from going?
Does the Father run out and save him from his stupid choices?
Does he force him back at the point of a gun?

Do we have a reciprocal relationship with God, or does he rape us???
What do you say?

Does the prodigal son make a choice to love his Father, or is he raped by God?

Yes, rape. Think about the implications of this philosophy of grace forced upon human beings.

Nonsense !
Click to expand...
That’s disturbing. You shouldn’t be talking in that way.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
So you hate your father and mother ?

Of course literal interpretation would mandate this, but its not what Jesus meant for us to do.

Jim
Click to expand...
So what do you think He meant by this? Do you think He meant the exact opposite, that we do not have to hate anything? That we can put whatever we want before Him, including sin?
 
ProdigalSun said:
The son repented and with a contrite heart saw the erro of his ways and went back to his father where he was waiting with open arms to receive, forgive him, and fill him with his grace.

If the SOn would not have come home(repented) The Father would have kept waiting patiently until he did repent.
Click to expand...
But when you contemplate Lukes verses, what reaches your heart and teaches you? What aspect of the gospel are you influenced most by? Is there satisfaction in the fact of the broken son, grovelling in pig swill and crawling home in humiliation? I’ve done lots of scripture study on that passage and that is never what is emphasised by scripture teachers. That humility and sorrow is not something a person contrives in order to earn mercy. It’s a consequence of a whole bigger picture. It’s highly relevant… but to us personally. It isn’t meant to make us judge others or feel like we have the right to police repentance.

The aspects that Pope Francis wants to bring to the fore are the fact of the Fathers unconditional love and mercy. The father never once asked or expected repentance. He was off up the paddock like a madman just to see his son in the distance. The repentance part of the story is very much a consequence of the fathers love for his son and not the other way around. (The fathers love being a consequence of repentance)

The other aspect that Pope Francis has highlighted in his homilies and messages is ‘elder brother’ syndrome. We can be motivated by indignance that someone doesn’t get the comeuppence they deserve and that gives me the pleasure of feeling superior. It’s that idea that love is earned and boy have I earned it all these years!

The fact that we’ve become highly focused on promoting the equation that repentance and repayment make mercy flow like the little mouse in the controlled experiment learning a reward response… is making us into fundamentalists who just focus on one aspect of a verse to justify severity and violence towards others.
 
LongingSoul said:
That’s disturbing. You shouldn’t be talking in that way.
Click to expand...
Although he could have put this in a more diplomatic way, his point is well made.

Does God “force” his mercy and grace upon us. Or do we need to cooperate with it. Can we be filled with his grace if we have a Mortal sin on our hearts?
 
clem456 said:
Thank God we have Christ’s Mystical Body (aka Church) to clear up murkiness, doubt, and distraction.

Begs the question, if Christ himself exhorts us to repent and believe, what exactly is the problem here?
Click to expand...
Read the first line;
The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion,
Click to expand...
This doesn’t happen by one’s own doing, but by the gift of faith given to the person where he receives God’s merciful grace.

If God did not have mercy, he wouldn’t bother with us.

Jim
 
LongingSoul said:
But when you contemplate Lukes verses, what reaches your heart and teaches you? What aspect of the gospel are you influenced most by? Is there satisfaction in the fact of the broken son, grovelling in pig swill and crawling home in humiliation? I’ve done lots of scripture study on that passage and that is never what is emphasised by scripture teachers. That humility and sorrow is not something a person contrives in order to earn mercy. It’s a consequence of a whole bigger picture. It’s highly relevant… but to us personally. It isn’t meant to make us judge others or feel like we have the right to police repentance.
The aspects that Pope Francis wants to bring to the fore are the fact of the Fathers unconditional love and mercy. The father never once asked or expected repentance. He was off up the paddock like a madman just to see his son in the distance. The repentance part of the story is very much a consequence of the fathers love for his son and not the other way around.

The other aspect that Pope Francis has highlighted in his homilies and messages is ‘elder brother’ syndrome. We can be motivated by indignance that someone doesn’t get the comeuppence they deserve and that gives me the pleasure of feeling superior. It’s that idea that love is earned and boy have I earned it all these years!

The fact that we’ve become highly focused on promoting the equation that repentance and repayment make mercy flow like the little mouse in the controlled experiment learning a reward response… is making us into fundamentalists who just focus on one aspect of a verse to justify severity and violence towards others.
Click to expand...
First off, are you judging me guilty of policing someone’s repentance? Who’s exactly? Secondly whether or not the repentance of the son is a consequence of the fathers Love (I not saying it is or isn’t) does nothing to change the fact that the son did indeed need to repent. Would the Father (or you) allow his son (your son) to continue in his decadent perverted ways once he moved back into his house? I mean that is what would be the logical conclusion of the unrepentant son going back to the welcoming Father. A spoiled brat living of the grace of his Father while living a life fornicatiion and debauchery in his basement!
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Read the first line;

This doesn’t happen by one’s own doing, but by the gift of faith given to the person where he receives God’s merciful grace.

If God did not have mercy, he wouldn’t bother with us.

Jim
Click to expand...
So we can be filled with Gods Merciful grace while in mortal sin! Is this correct?
 
clem456 said:
Jim, c’mon.

The son is moved to conversion and repentance, to return to his Father’s love. Let’s absorb the whole Gospel, not just the parts that support our contentions.

Yes his Father is waiting for him the whole time. Does the Father prevent him from going?
Does the Father run out and save him from his stupid choices?
Does he force him back at the point of a gun?

Do we have a reciprocal relationship with God, or does he rape us???
What do you say?

Does the prodigal son make a choice to love his Father, or is he raped by God?

Yes, rape. Think about the implications of this philosophy of grace forced upon human beings.

Nonsense !
Click to expand...
Did the father know the son was sorry for his wrong doing when he saw him coming, or did the father wait for the son to come up to him and tell him he was sorry ?

The gospel I read, the father was overjoyed just seeing his son and ran out to meet him.

Jim
 
St_Francis said:
So what do you think He meant by this? Do you think He meant the exact opposite, that we do not have to hate anything? That we can put whatever we want before Him, including sin?
Click to expand...
Jesus was merely showing the intensity we are to love God.

I don’t think Jesus wanted us to violate the 4th commandment by hating our parents.

Jim
 
“For as the Father hath life in himself, so he has given to the Son also to have life in himself: And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man” (John 5:26-27).

It is this truth that those who repeat the Catechism “like a manta with no life in it” until it becomes legalism fail to recognize as they judge others. There is also this: “Judge not that you may not be judged” (Matt. 7:1). Judgment is not for us to do.

We learn the Catechism as children and there comes a time to remove the training wheels and grow in understanding.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Good you’re starting to get it.

God has mercy before we decide to accepted it.

Jim
Click to expand...
There was never a question about God having Mercy, it was a question on if it forced upon someone who does not desire it. The question then becomes, what happens if someone does NOT accept it.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Not necessarily

Jim
Click to expand...
Right! If they have invincible ignorance, which I would suspect is a pretty hard sell if this is a Catholic couple going to mass on a regular basis.

but yeah not necessarily.

If indeed they are not in Mortal sin then yes come receive the Eucharist that is who it is there for, Catholics in a state of grace!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top