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ProdigalSun
Guest
I understand what it requires. If someone is not in Mortal sin then one may receive the host!
I’m glad you are starting to understand!
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I’m glad you are starting to understand!
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LongingSoul
Guest
But that is why there is no question that a general rule change regarding divorced/remarrieds. It’s only being considered within a pastoral forum between couples already turned to the Church and participating in the life of the parish. These are people already experiencing a desire for God and living that out. They don’t experience themselves as adulterers despite the legal definition of the Church that they are. Isn’t that understandable though? A person can feel a desire for Truth and God with a very underdeveloped conscience and knowledge as yet. I sometimes read in St Faustinas diaries about her absolute agony at being unworthy before God and I think how deficient in true repentance that I must be if a really holy woman like that can feel so sinful.There was never a question about God having Mercy, it was a question on if it forced upon someone who does not desire it. The question then becomes, what happens if someone does NOT accept it.
It takes time to grow in the faith and understand how an act of ours harms our relationship with God and our fellow man. You can’t force repentance on someone either. Holiness developes and with it repentance.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Then you haven’t been following the thread and result in your misunderstanding of what I’ve posted to others.There was never a question about God having Mercy, it was a question on if it forced upon someone who does not desire it. The question then becomes, what happens if someone does NOT accept it.
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Love and mercy go hand-hand.The term there is Love. That is why God bothers with us.
But Love is never forced, is it?
You can not love and be cruel at the same time
Jim
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ProdigalSun
Guest
In other words do not tell people what sin is and the truth of sin. Do not judge ones action. Let them wallow in there sin.“For as the Father hath life in himself, so he has given to the Son also to have life in himself: And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man” (John 5:26-27).
It is this truth that those who repeat the Catechism “like a manta with no life in it” until it becomes legalism fail to recognize as they judge others. There is also this: “Judge not that you may not be judged” (Matt. 7:1). Judgment is not for us to do.
We learn the Catechism as children and there comes a time to remove the training wheels and grow in understanding.
It is not enough that we should not judge a persons heart and there destination. We also need to ignore all sin around us and just let people find out this stuff on there own.
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ProdigalSun
Guest
Yes this is of course wonderful and good. THese couples should work out this with the church. At the same time Iif the first marriage is not annulled and the second marriage not regularized is it ok for the couple to go on living a life as a married couple and having the church sign off on it as if the couple was indeed married.But that is why there is no question that a general rule change regarding divorced/remarrieds. It’s only being considered within a pastoral forum between couples already turned to the Church and participating in the life of the parish. These are people already experiencing a desire for God and living that out. They don’t experience themselves as adulterers despite the legal definition of the Church that they are. Isn’t that understandable though? A person can feel a desire for Truth and God with a very underdeveloped conscience and knowledge as yet. I sometimes read in St Faustinas diaries about her absolute agony at being unworthy before God and I think how deficient in true repentance that I must be if a really holy woman like that can feel so sinful.
It takes time to grow in the faith and understand how an act of ours harms our relationship with God and our fellow man. You can’t force repentance on someone either. Holiness developes and with it repentance.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
You can tell a person what sin is, but it doesn’t mean they now have full knowledge, only information from a source they don’t agree withIn other words do not tell people what sin is and the truth of sin. Do not judge ones action. Let them wallow in there sin.
It is not enough that we should not judge a persons heart and there destination. We also need to ignore all sin around us and just let people find out this stuff on there own.
Jim
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Brendan
Guest
I agree that they need time, and that we cannot force repentance on anyone. They need to come to it themselves. But until they do, until they are in contrition for each and every act outside of a valid marriage, they are rejecting the Mercy that God is offering.But that is why there is no question that a general rule change regarding divorced/remarrieds. It’s only being considered within a pastoral forum between couples already turned to the Church and participating in the life of the parish. These are people already experiencing a desire for God and living that out. They don’t experience themselves as adulterers despite the legal definition of the Church that they are. Isn’t that understandable though? A person can feel a desire for Truth and God with a very underdeveloped conscience and knowledge as yet. I sometimes read in St Faustinas diaries about her absolute agony at being unworthy before God and I think how deficient in true repentance that I must be if a really holy woman like that can feel so sinful.
It takes time to grow in the faith and understand how an act of ours harms our relationship with God and our fellow man. You can’t force repentance on someone either. Holiness developes and with it repentance.
Sacramental Absolution which clears the path to Holy Communion, cannot take place.
The medicine will do great damage to their souls if taken while acting in opposition to God. It does not matter that they consider themselves NOT to be adulterers. If their previous union was a valid one, they are adulterers, and it would be an act of dishonesty to convey any other reality to them.
The path to God is never one of dishonesty.
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Brendan
Guest
I have been following the threat. There was no attempt to misunderstand you, it was a question posed to find out what your understanding is.Then you haven’t been following the thread and result in your misunderstanding of what I’ve posted to others.
Jim
What happens to the person when they reject the Mercy, if they choose to not forgo acts that are sinful in nature.
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St_Francis
Guest
And if they do not believe when the *Church *tells them, then they have yet another problem with sin, don’t they?You can tell a person what sin is, but it doesn’t mean they now have full knowledge, only information from a source they don’t agree with
Jim
So now you seem (as far as I can tell) to be advocating allowing people who are unrepentant and continuing sinners who do not accept the authority of the Church to receive the Body and Blood of the One Who died for us on the cross? How can you possibly think this is all right?
If nothing else, have the mercy to prevent this poor sinner from further sin: “But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, **eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, **not discerning the body of the Lord.” (1 Cor 11:28–29)
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St_Francis
Guest
Good, we are to love God with sufficient intensity to hate our parents, to cut off our members. So what kind of pallid thing do you call it when a person will not stop sinning for the One Who died for him?Jesus was merely showing the intensity we are to love God.
I don’t think Jesus wanted us to violate the 4th commandment by hating our parents.
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
There are many people who do not trust what the Church teaches, and some may be justifiable.And if they do not believe when the *Church *tells them, then they have yet another problem with sin, don’t they?
Such people are not going to accept what the Church teaches, and as a result, do not obtain full knowledge.
Others, because their experience does not match what the Church teaches, i.e. their 40 years of a beautiful marriage = living in sin, are not going to have full knowledge.
Jim
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Thomas_White
Guest
The growth in understanding occurs much like the difference between “their” and “there” is recognized.In other words do not tell people what sin is and the truth of sin. Do not judge ones action. Let them wallow in there sin.
It is not enough that we should not judge a persons heart and there destination. We also need to ignore all sin around us and just let people find out this stuff on there own.
L
LongingSoul
Guest
If the Church denied annulment but the couple in honest conscience examination believe that they are in a valid marriage now and it would be sinful to break it up…are they called to ignore their conscience?I agree that they need time, and that we cannot force repentance on anyone. They need to come to it themselves. But until they do, until they are in contrition for each and every act outside of a valid marriage, they are rejecting the Mercy that God is offering.
Sacramental Absolution which clears the path to Holy Communion, cannot take place.
The medicine will do great damage to their souls if taken while acting in opposition to God. It does not matter that they consider themselves NOT to be adulterers. If their previous union was a valid one, they are adulterers, and it would be an act of dishonesty to convey any other reality to them.
The path to God is never one of dishonesty.
I’m not as absolutely convinced as you that there is no room for the path of communion whether after a penitential journey or an interesting thing Pope Francis raised in his answer to the Lutheran women the other day… as a form of viaticum as understood as having a purpose related distinctly to emergency and war situations.
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Brendan
Guest
No, but they would still be denied (rightly) Sacramental Absolution and Holy Communion.If the Church denied annulment but the couple in honest conscience examination believe that they are in a valid marriage now and it would be sinful to break it up…are they called to ignore their conscience?.
If, at some future point, their conscience became rightly formed; they recognized that their actions were in opposition to God, and they chose to forgo sexual relations, they could of course, be admitted to the Sacraments.
Nor in the Church, in fact, it encourages such a penitential journey. But the contrition that concludes the journey MUST include the forebearance of adulterous acts.I’m not as absolutely convinced as you that there is no room for the path of communion whether after a penitential journey
S
St_Francis
Guest
Wrt the Prodigal Son: The son decided to return home. His father saw him from afar and went to greet him. The son apologized and said he was not worthy to be the son of the father. **Then **the father called for the feast.There are many people who do not trust what the Church teaches, and some may be justifiable.
Such people are not going to accept what the Church teaches, and as a result, do not obtain full knowledge.
Others, because their experience does not match what the Church teaches, i.e. their 40 years of a beautiful marriage = living in sin, are not going to have full knowledge.
Jim
Note too that the father had never followed the son, but waited til the son had decided to return. The son’s place was always ready for him, but he had to make the decision to return. Nor did the father feed him before he apologized.
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Ender
Guest
Your terms are misleading. What does it mean to be “shown” mercy? If it means to treat someone mercifully then this is not what God does. He offers us mercy before we repent but he does not “show” us mercy until we do.The fact that God offers his mercy before we accept it, shows the level of mercy which is beyond our understanding. In his mercy He gives us grace in order that we can come to Him with contrite hearts.
That our sins are forgiven is due to his mercy, but it is clear that sins are not forgiven without repentance, without contrition. You are blurring the distinction between mercy offered and mercy accepted.
Am I to be more merciful than God?Do you show mercy to a person who has done wrong, but has yet to repent ? Or do you wait for them to repent the wrong they’ve done ?
Ender
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
God showed his mercy in Jesus Christ death and resurrection, which God promised long before we repented.Your terms are misleading. What does it mean to be “shown” mercy? If it means to treat someone mercifully then this is not what God does. He offers us mercy before we repent but he does not “show” us mercy until we do.
That our sins are forgiven is due to his mercy, but it is clear that sins are not forgiven without repentance, without contrition. You are blurring the distinction between mercy offered and mercy accepted.
Am I to be more merciful than God?
Ender
God showed his mercy to St Paul, before he repented in what he was doing.
Faith, which is God’s revelation of Himself to the soul, however that may happen, usually takes place before the person repents, as happened to St Paul, St Francis of Assisi and others.
God’s revelation of Himself to the individual, is out of His Divine mercy.
Repentance comes when the soul realizes their offense toward God and out of the faith they have received, have a contrite heart.
Jim
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clem456
Guest
It’s a relationship, it’s not money in/gumball out.Your terms are misleading. What does it mean to be “shown” mercy? If it means to treat someone mercifully then this is not what God does. He offers us mercy before we repent but he does not “show” us mercy until we do.
That our sins are forgiven is due to his mercy, but it is clear that sins are not forgiven without repentance, without contrition. You are blurring the distinction between mercy offered and mercy accepted.
Am I to be more merciful than God?
Ender
God is always merciful. It is who he is. Christ has acted in time to pay the price. Forgiveness is always offered, even before we have the thought of repentance. God is always faithful in offering himself for us. He is perfect in his love.
We are made in God’s image. We offer that same love to his people.
We offer mercy.
And…(not but…)
and
Because we live in a relationship with God and not a contract, if we do not repent and convert, then we do not know him and his mercy. He will not force himself on us. He will not save us without ourselves. That would be an injustice. God is just. We really don’t understand the relationship between justice/mercy here. Let the Church speak.
The Father is always waiting for his children, but we do not reconcile with his family without repentance and conversion. Again, he does not force reconciliation. If he did, the cross is a meaningless and unnecessary waste of human flesh.
It is a lie to lead someone to believe they can know God without making the effort to:
- listen to him,
- come to know him…what he offers, what he asks
- see one’s self in that honest light (not the dishonest light Arbp Chaput talks about)
- make the choice to say “yes Lord, I accept, I will turn back to you”.
If we don’t think turning back is necessary to have this relationship with God, we are in dangerous spiritual waters.
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ProVobis
Guest
You know, it’s bad enough to give scandal without knowledge but to glorify it, Jim, really?Others, because their experience does not match what the Church teaches, i.e. their 40 years of a beautiful marriage = living in sin, are not going to have full knowledge.
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