A Challenging Article on Catholic Moral Theology

[adrift]

That article is a joke my friend. Our teeth are nothing like a carnivores or omnivores. Meat does not pass easily through our intestines, in fact, it can get stuck in there for years. It also constipates us, whereas fruits and veggies do the opposite. I could go deeper but the proof we were not “born to eat meat” is in the fact that eating a high meat diet kills us. A dog or cat can eat as much meat as they want without developing the diet related diseases we do.

Besides, if we were born to eat meat it would be the first thing you feed to a baby. As it is it’s the very last thing they are fed and it has to be very carefully prepared and chopped up into very small pieces. Sometimes, the mothers will even half way chew it up for the kids.

But for the sake of argument let’s just say we are totally born to eat meat, none of that would justify factory farming in anyway whatsoever. So again, this topic of biology is a red herring and the argument of eating meat vs vegetarian is a straw man. Even if we want to eat meat or need to eat meat we simply should not support gratuitous violence like factory farming. The author of the original article did a good job of explaining way.

You make statement without any fact to back them up. What you claim is a myth. Come on now the first thing that any mammal eats is mother’s milk that includes dogs and cats. But I am not going to address all the fallacies in your post. You make conclusion without justification. You have accepted uncritically the emotionally charge of factory animals. This piece was based on Peta which does not have a very good record.I doubt there veracity. I have been on a pig farm. I did not observe what PETA reports. They place animals above humans. This idea of factory animals is one to illicit a mindless emotional outburst that is not based on the care of animals that we owe but putting them above humans. It was asked earlier

So what are the alternatives to factory food production?

Trying to feed 3 people for a lifetime is one thing. Trying to feed 300 million for a lifetime is quite another thing. Not to mention the food we export to those who need it.

Whatever the alternatives, our food will cost more. Which does not help the poor at all.

GOOD STEWARDSHIP of our natural resources is a moral imperative in my view. But 300 plus million people need to be fed every day at a price they can afford.

But then people don’t count much next to cute little piglet.

 

[Link0126]

You make statement without any fact to back them up. What you claim is a myth. Come on now the first thing that any mammal eats is mother’s milk that includes dogs and cats. But I am not going to address all the fallacies in your post. You make conclusion without justification. You have accepted uncritically the emotionally charge of factory animals. This piece was based on Peta which does not have a very good record.I doubt there veracity. I have been on a pig farm. I did not observe what PETA reports. They place animals above humans. This idea of factory animals is one to illicit a mindless emotional outburst that is not based on the care of animals that we owe but putting them above humans. It was asked earlier

But then people don’t count much next to cute little piglet.

What did I say that is false? please explain. There is nothing of course wrong or even unnatural with drinking our mother’s milk. I don’t see how that proves we are meat eaters in any way.

Also, the article had nothing to do with PETA. Throwing out the term “PETA” does not grant you an automatic win.

We are not talking about a pig farm that you can go and visit and walk around in. A factory farm is surrounded by fences and run by corporations. I doubt they would let you in to site see.

To answer the question about what is the alternative to factory farming. The simple answer is that raising animals takes more food than simply growing crops. Animals have to eat food to survive and pack on the meat. In fact, you have to feed a cow 16 pounds to get back one pound of meat. Factory farming also destroys and pollutes land that could otherwise be used to grow crops. It’s true that these animals eat a lower quality corn or grain than us humans would eat, but this doesn’t necessary mean that we couldn’t grow better food for humans, it just means they aren’t putting a lot of money or care into growing food for farm animals. Feeding people would be easy if not easier without factory farming.

No one has ever proposed opening a factory farm in Africa as a cure for world hunger. This is b/c it is highly inefficient.

 

[severus68]

The church founded by Jesus says that eating meat is fine, now you can CHOOSE not to eat meat if you like, I could care less, its more for me then. However the church says I can eat meat and has never said that I cannot other then a few days a year, which we give up because meat is so yummy.

Also note that the Church says we can eat shellfish and pigs, so you can SAY anything you want to, but we can still eat meat, and it is NOT a sin. In fact I could hunt 100 animals a year and it will in no way affect my odds of getting into heaven.

I have never cared about what others choose to eat, why do you care so much? I have some good friends who are vegetarians. They do not care that I eat meat, the church does not care that I eat meat and I love meat, what makes you think you can tell others what to do?

The church is NOT pro-vegetarian and you know it, so you can try to make it seem like it all you want, however the facts are eating meat is fine and moral. In fact I might just take up hunting and fishing now in order to get more yummy meat into my tummy.

I cannot tell anyone what to eat and not to eat. I have made it very clear that I became aware of the pain and suffering eating meat causes and I made the choice not to eat meat. **I **believe that in the perfect world that God created and wants, there will no longer be any eating of flesh and the lion will lay down with the lamb as Isaiah put it.

You are deliberating trying to be offensive. “Sticks and stones…” and all that. If you think what you do is right, you do not have to be offensively defensive about it.

 

[Speedypizza]

I cannot tell anyone what to eat and not to eat. I have made it very clear that I became aware of the pain and suffering eating meat causes and I made the choice not to eat meat. **I **believe that in the perfect world that God created and wants, there will no longer be any eating of flesh and the lion will lay down with the lamb as Isaiah put it.

You are deliberating trying to be offensive. “Sticks and stones…” and all that. If you think what you do is right, you do not have to be offensively defensive about it.

And I am asking yet again for evidence of what you are saying… I want to know where you get your information from, and I want to be able to verify it from more then one source. You are making the claim here, not me. I do not have to prove that animals do not suffer, you need to prove to me that they do. Keep in mind that animals in the wild can suffer a lot as well, so the level of suffering must be well beyond that level.

Things I will not accept as proof include descriptions of what you think happens to animals in “factory farms” (I have been on a modern dairy farm and it was NOTHING like people on vegan sites have claimed), anything from any site with an ax to grind or products to sell, or anything from PETA, and anything that talks about a problem at one farm, I am looking for proof of a widespread mistreatment of animals, not a few cows who were kicked by some drunken farmhand.

 

[white_sheep]

I must have missed the poll of chickens that showed they dislike being factory farmed and prefer to be free range, can someone repost that link for me?

 

[Speedypizza]

(Sorry to repost again but it would not let me edit my message.)

P.S. I am not a heartless monster, I love animals and think they are amazing things. I cried like a schoolgirl when my pet rat died last year, and still miss my pet chicken Teresa who died of old age about 2 years ago. I have had cows and think they are very sweet animals. I think pigs are cute and smart. I had a pet goat who for years kept my grass mowed for me. In my lifetime I have saved the lives of 100’s of turtles who got on a road, nursed 3 birds back to health and adopted a dog who was blind and only had 3 legs. All of this to say that if I really thought that animals were being abused and hurt, I might give up on meat as well, or at least only buy meat from local farmers who I knew were taking care of their animals and killing them in only a humane way. However the same things people say about how badly pigs are treated, I have heard said about how dairy cows are treated, and I know that dairy cows are treated better then the farmers kids are half the time.

 

[severus68]

And I am asking yet again for evidence of what you are saying… I want to know where you get your information from, and I want to be able to verify it from more then one source. You are making the claim here, not me. I do not have to prove that animals do not suffer, you need to prove to me that they do. Keep in mind that animals in the wild can suffer a lot as well, so the level of suffering must be well beyond that level.

Things I will not accept as proof include descriptions of what you think happens to animals in “factory farms” (I have been on a modern dairy farm and it was NOTHING like people on vegan sites have claimed), anything from any site with an ax to grind or products to sell, or anything from PETA, and anything that talks about a problem at one farm, I am looking for proof of a widespread mistreatment of animals, not a few cows who were kicked by some drunken farmhand.

I need to prove animals can suffer? That has been proven by innumerable scientific studies which have been linked on CAF on many threads. Animals are sentient beings, Have you never seen an animal in pain?

I personally have never referred animal ‘factories’ here. However, I have seen the videos and gone to links referred to. PETA is not the only animal group in the world Try IFAW and WSPA, there are not termed terrorist groups. It is common sense that animals become an industry where it is all about the greatest production in the shortest time, the welfare of animals have the least, if any, priority.

 

[Speedypizza]

I need to prove animals can suffer? That has been proven by innumerable scientific studies which have been linked on CAF on many threads. Animals are sentient beings, Have you never seen an animal in pain?

I personally have never referred animal ‘factories’ here. However, I have seen the videos and gone to links referred to. PETA is not the only animal group in the world Try IFAW and WSPA, there are not termed terrorist groups. It is common sense that animals become an industry where it is all about the greatest production in the shortest time, the welfare of animals have the least, if any, priority.

Common sense is not proof, certainly not when my first hand experience shows that factory farmed animals are well taken care of and that many of these videos of animal abuse are shot using light filters to try to make them look “darker” and somehow more “evil.”

Nor is saying that “innumerable scientific studies” have been linked, if you have the links, that do not go to sites like I listed I will not except, please list them.

Telling me to try some other groups is not proof, if they are pro-vegan sites, I am not going to except them either. If they are not, and are fair, rational sites, please list links to what you want me to look at as proof.

 

[severus68]

Common sense is not proof, certainly not when my first hand experience shows that factory farmed animals are well taken care of and that many of these videos of animal abuse are shot using light filters to try to make them look “darker” and somehow more “evil.”

Nor is saying that “innumerable scientific studies” have been linked, if you have the links, that do not go to sites like I listed I will not except, please list them.

Telling me to try some other groups is not proof, if they are pro-vegan sites, I am not going to except them either. If they are not, and are fair, rational sites, please list links to what you want me to look at as proof.

I can get you links but I do not understand what you mean by 'links that do not go to sites…"

It is only people who care about cruelty to animals would make the effort to take pictures and make videos that show animal cruelty. They are not all PETA. Would you like to see videos of brutality in slaughter houses by people who are so desensitised? There are videos of the suffering of animals transported long distances for animals. If you are sincerely interested, I will get you the links.

 

[white_sheep]

All the chickens I’ve ever talked to about this said that they prefer being factory farmed. They say they feel much more protected and safe than they do when they are out running around with all the predators and raptors about.

 

[Link0126]

The videos are not shot with a light filter. At least not for the sake of looking more evil. The videos are usually shot with a hidden camera. No darkness need be added b/c if for instance you’ve ever seen a factory egg farm the chickens are kept in cycles of complete darkness/complete light in order to jolt them into laying more eggs. Egg laying hens are the most abused animals in the argi-business. They can not spread their wings. All their feather fall off and they feet can even grow around the cages so that they starve. Male baby chicks are ground up alive for easy quick disposal. It is dark and noisy beyond belief in those barns. It is truly like hell on earth…

Also, it is simply made up that PETA is a terrorist organization. You can’t be a functioning terrorist group in the United States at the same time you are a functioning 501c3 tax free non-profit. If you choose not to believe the visual footage provided by PETA for whatever reason that is fine, b/c there are tons of other sources out there that an honest actually caring individual could seek out.

see this video. This is typical egg production methods. Not isolated.

video.humanesociety.org/video/629262638001/Channels/602022756001/Latest-Videos/1044327352001/Cage-vs-Cage-Free/

 

[white_sheep]

You can’t be a functioning terrorist group in the United States at the same time you are a functioning 501c3 tax free non-profit.

This is not true.

 

[adrift]

What did I say that is false? please explain. There is nothing of course wrong or even unnatural with drinking our mother’s milk. I don’t see how that proves we are meat eaters in any way.

Also, the article had nothing to do with PETA. Throwing out the term “PETA” does not grant you an automatic win.

We are not talking about a pig farm that you can go and visit and walk around in. A factory farm is surrounded by fences and run by corporations. I doubt they would let you in to site see.

To answer the question about what is the alternative to factory farming. The simple answer is that raising animals takes more food than simply growing crops. Animals have to eat food to survive and pack on the meat. In fact, you have to feed a cow 16 pounds to get back one pound of meat. Factory farming also destroys and pollutes land that could otherwise be used to grow crops. It’s true that these animals eat a lower quality corn or grain than us humans would eat, but this doesn’t necessary mean that we couldn’t grow better food for humans, it just means they aren’t putting a lot of money or care into growing food for farm animals. Feeding people would be easy if not easier without factory farming.

No one has ever proposed opening a factory farm in Africa as a cure for world hunger. This is b/c it is highly inefficient.

I have been on a very large pig operation. You assume without facts. You are letting your emotions rule. The cattle around here graze on land that could not be used for anything else than to feed them. You have swallowed the myths hook line and sinker. You make statements as if they are proven. Give me proof of what you say not just the propganda you have been feed. Just where do you think you will get the water for all these crops?

Did you read the article. Obviously you missed this

I have chosen so far not to describe the various kinds of cruelties inflicted on pigs in typical factory farming. But for those unaware, the following is only the tip of the iceberg with regards to the kinds of things done to the intelligent and sensitive creatures we call pigs. Here’s how **PETA describes **some of the typical treatment of factory-farmed pigs, but you can read the same basic points in Jonathon Safran Foer’s Eating Animals, and all over the web.

His information comes from this radical group which I believe would make up things just to further their agenda.

 

[razredge]

The simple fact that we’re designed to eat both meat and vegetable means that God intended us to eat meat.

Plus, Jesus ate meat too - are you saying his morals are also questionable?

 

[4elise]

The simple fact that we’re designed to eat both meat and vegetable means that God intended us to eat meat.

Plus, Jesus ate meat too - are you saying his morals are also questionable?

The OP is not about the morality of eating meat - buy the morality of raising animals for consumption on factory farms. I believe that any animals consumed in the Jesus’ time would certainly have been raised in a sustainable, non industralized manner…

 

[Speedypizza]

The videos are not shot with a light filter. At least not for the sake of looking more evil. The videos are usually shot with a hidden camera. No darkness need be added b/c if for instance you’ve ever seen a factory egg farm the chickens are kept in cycles of complete darkness/complete light in order to jolt them into laying more eggs. Egg laying hens are the most abused animals in the argi-business. They can not spread their wings. All their feather fall off and they feet can even grow around the cages so that they starve. Male baby chicks are ground up alive for easy quick disposal. It is dark and noisy beyond belief in those barns. It is truly like hell on earth…

Also, it is simply made up that PETA is a terrorist organization. You can’t be a functioning terrorist group in the United States at the same time you are a functioning 501c3 tax free non-profit. If you choose not to believe the visual footage provided by PETA for whatever reason that is fine, b/c there are tons of other sources out there that an honest actually caring individual could seek out.

see this video. This is typical egg production methods. Not isolated.

video.humanesociety.org/video/629262638001/Channels/602022756001/Latest-Videos/1044327352001/Cage-vs-Cage-Free/

Hmm, great site. I watched the video and then did a little research. I have found many sites that claim that chickens who are unhappy lay less eggs. Here is a site that says that chickens in cages are happier chickens.

Are chickens in cages being abused?

Answer:  Housing chickens in cages does not abuse them.  The egg producer does not intentionally abuse chickens because the birds will not be healthy and happy and good egg producers.  The certification program mentioned in Question 9 is designed to increase cage space and modify other production practices that may be in question.  Research has shown that keeping hens in cages actually may be less stressful since there is less competition and interaction with other more aggressive birds.

ansi.okstate.edu/outreach-extension/poultry/poultry-faqs

Not saying my site is better then yours, just saying that there are people who do not agree with your conclusions.

 

[4elise]

Hmm, great site. I watched the video and then did a little research. I have found many sites that claim that chickens who are unhappy lay less eggs. Here is a site that says that chickens in cages are happier chickens.

Are chickens in cages being abused?

Answer:  Housing chickens in cages does not abuse them.  The egg producer does not intentionally abuse chickens because the birds will not be healthy and happy and good egg producers.  The certification program mentioned in Question 9 is designed to increase cage space and modify other production practices that may be in question.  Research has shown that keeping hens in cages actually may be less stressful since there is less competition and interaction with other more aggressive birds.

ansi.okstate.edu/outreach-extension/poultry/poultry-faqs

Not saying my site is better then yours, just saying that there are people who do not agree with your conclusions.

I am sure that there are people on both sides of every issue - I think it is always to consider motivation.

The guidelines quoted in your source are from ‘the United Egg Producers organization’ - when the industry that profits from the chickens producing the optimal number of eggs is the one setting the standard I would think that the number of eggs produced is of greater importance than the quality of life of the the chickens laying the eggs - and for the sake of the public perception it would be detrimental to their bottom line if they were to say otherwise. So as you say - one side differs from another . From what I can see those who you find fault with are more in keeping this view: *'2416 Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.197 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals. * I believe industry organizations tend to be looking at the profits and not the animals -

Our Pope said, in an interview in 2002 (then Cardinal Ratzinger) *" Certainly, a sort of industrial use of creatures, so that geese are fed in such a way as to produce as large a liver as possible, or hens live so packed together that they become just caricatures of birds, this degrading of living creatures to a commodity seems to me in fact to contradict the relationship of mutuality that comes across in the Bible." *

I believe it may be easy to just deny that factory farming is a real issue that does not view animals as part of God’s creation but rather part of the bottom line - but one only has to be open to the possibility that their own choices may be contributing to this issue.

 

[severus68]

I am sure that there are people on both sides of every issue - I think it is always to consider motivation.

The guidelines quoted in your source are from ‘the United Egg Producers organization’ - when the industry that profits from the chickens producing the optimal number of eggs is the one setting the standard I would think that the number of eggs produced is of greater importance than the quality of life of the the chickens laying the eggs - and for the sake of the public perception it would be detrimental to their bottom line if they were to say otherwise. So as you say - one side differs from another . From what I can see those who you find fault with are more in keeping this view: *'2416 Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.197 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals. * I believe industry organizations tend to be looking at the profits and not the animals -

Our Pope said, in an interview in 2002 (then Cardinal Ratzinger) *" Certainly, a sort of industrial use of creatures, so that geese are fed in such a way as to produce as large a liver as possible, or hens live so packed together that they become just caricatures of birds, this degrading of living creatures to a commodity seems to me in fact to contradict the relationship of mutuality that comes across in the Bible." *

I believe it may be easy to just deny that factory farming is a real issue that does not view animals as part of God’s creation but rather part of the bottom line - but one only has to be open to the possibility that their own choices may be contributing to this issue.

Excellent post. Keeping chickens cramped in cages may be good for profits but where is the consideration for the welfare of a creature of God.

 

[John21652]

PETA scores a victory by scaring organisers out of allowing garments made from rabbit fur to be displayed. In Australia, where rabbits are a multi-billion dollar pest.

Oh, the power these crazies have! Given into by moral cowards.

These animal welfare groups are fast losing any credibility they still might have.

The promotion of rabbit hunting and rabbit eating and utilising rabbit fur should be on the agenda of any sane organisation that cares about the environment.

 

[severus68]

PETA scores a victory by scaring organisers out of allowing garments made from rabbit fur to be displayed. In Australia, where rabbits are a multi-billion dollar pest.

Oh, the power these crazies have! Given into by moral cowards.

These animal welfare groups are fast losing any credibility they still might have.

The promotion of rabbit hunting and rabbit eating and utilising rabbit fur should be on the agenda of any sane organisation that cares about the environment.

Taking care of the environment is for the sake of humans and the other creatures of God who live on this earth.