A "Charismaric Mass" on EWTN?

[ibkc]

Have you ever been to a football game and cheered on the winning team with excitement? Well, why don’t we ever do that for Jesus? Doesn’t He deserve more praise and glory than all these sports teams that we get all excited about?

I would be beyond horrified at a Mass that had the atmosphere of a football game. shudder Also, it is folly (IMO) to think that the only way to give praise and glory to Jesus is to cheer and shout and make noise. It’s ONE way, for certain, but there are others, and more specifically, others which are more in line with Catholic teaching and with its liturgical tradition as handed down for centuries: quiet, contemplative reverence, for one.

For those who note that St. Paul worshiped in tongues, I want to counter-note that the way modern charismatics worship has pretty much zero in common with Paul’s very clear description of worship in his time.

 

[Feanor]

Popes have celebrated these masses?

Gosh that’s interesting. . . that must be something to see! Did they people get all excited during the Consecration like the one I went to once?

 

[jwatza]

I would be beyond horrified at a Mass that had the atmosphere of a football game. shudder Also, it is folly (IMO) to think that the only way to give praise and glory to Jesus is to cheer and shout and make noise. It’s ONE way, for certain, but there are others, and more specifically, others which are more in line with Catholic teaching and with its liturgical tradition as handed down for centuries: quiet, contemplative reverence, for one.

Obviously, you didn’t see my post that came after my first one. There is a time and place for worshipping the Lord out loud with enthusiasm and, no, I wouldn’t want the atmosphere of a football game during a Mass. However, prayer meetings are a wonderful time to express glory and praise to God. I have been to reverent Masses where Charismatic prayer is allowed during certain times and they are quite beautiful. Yes, there are some who go overboard in all types of spirituality, not just Charismatics. So, please give those of us who happen to be Charismatic in our spirituality and are live according to the teachings of the Church and are faithful Catholics some respect.

 

[benedictgal]

Popes have celebrated these masses?

Gosh that’s interesting. . . that must be something to see! Did they people get all excited during the Consecration like the one I went to once?

That is a new one, as well. The Office of Papal Celebrations for the Holy Father (now, its new name, at least as far as the Vatican website is concerned) makes known the Holy Father’s schedule of liturgical celebrations. Sometimes, he will have an encounter with all of the movements, as he does on the Saturday before Pentecost Sunday, but, it is not a Mass. At least with Pope Benedict XVI, it has been more of a Litrugy of the Hours celebration.

To my knowledge, I have not seen such a liturgy, nor have I seen it billed as such by the Holy See.

 

[ibkc]

Obviously, you didn’t see my post that came after my first one. There is a time and place for worshipping the Lord out loud with enthusiasm and, no, I wouldn’t want the atmosphere of a football game during a Mass. However, prayer meetings are a wonderful time to express glory and praise to God.

I apologize for not reading ahead before posting; however, note that this is the “Liturgy and Sacraments” forum, not the “What We Do On Our Own Time” forum, so you shouldn’t be surprised that your post was taken to refer to Mass.

I have been to reverent Masses where Charismatic prayer is allowed during certain times and they are quite beautiful. Yes, there are some who go overboard in all types of spirituality, not just Charismatics. So, please give those of us who happen to be Charismatic in our spirituality and are live according to the teachings of the Church and are faithful Catholics some respect.

I don’t harbor disrespect for charismatics, especially charismatics who don’t seek to disrupt a normal mass. A conversation about charismatic practices in general, and not specifically having to do with the Mass, really more properly belongs in the Spirituality or Apologetics sections.

 

[BSHoop96]

BSHoop:

Have you ever tried to explain something and found yourself using a lot of words but not really getting the idea across when somebody manages to put the whole thing concisely into one sentence?

Have you ever been so completely overwhelmed by an emotion (love, joy, grief) that there have been absolutely no words to describe what you are feeling? You want to tell someone how much you love them, but English is incapable of doing the job? What if the Holy Spirit gave you a language that you had never heard before and couldn’t even understand that described your feelings perfectly? That in just a few sentences told God exactly how much you love Him?

That is the “why” of speaking in tongues.

Marsha…I had to think about what you said for a while before I responded so I’m just now responding.

I think that if you are bothered by not being able to describe your love for God with words, it is something that bothers you, not God. God knows what is in your heart whether you are mute and unable to speak or whether you have the eloquence of Shakespeare. God doesn’t need certain words from you to prove that. Hopefully you show him, or try your best, in every day of your life by your actions that you love him. He has no need for you to speak in tongues to know the depth of your devotion. This is your need…not God’s.

As several have pointed out the tongues of “today” and of pentecost are different.

And after saying all this I want to add that I do not doubt the sincerity of your belief.

 

[FrDavid96]

On Pentecost each one heard in his own language. Acts 2:6

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

As several have pointed out the tongues of “today” and of pentecost are different.

And after saying all this I want to add that I do not doubt the sincerity of your belief.

A prayer tongue is different than a speaking tongue. It is for praise or praying for healing.

RM8:26 In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself **intercedes with inexpressible groanings. **27 And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God’s will.

This is mainly used at prayer services. The Charismatic elements of a Mass might include music similar to the Easter Gloria, some arms lifted in prayer and or/ handholding for the Lord’s prayer. I have rarely heard a praise tongue after Holy Communion, when the prayer is unregulated since as was said in other threads, “the Church does not want to overregulate the posture of the congregation” I’m sure many would say this is an abuse, but I have never heard a reprimand for this as was given to other movements.

This may not be a personal choice, but it is not Christian to ridicule or condemn.

Lux

 

[BSHoop96]

A prayer tongue is different than a speaking tongue. It is for praise or praying for healing.

This is mainly used at prayer services. The Charismatic elements of a Mass might include music similar to the Easter Gloria, some arms lifted in prayer and or/ handholding for the Lord’s prayer. I have rarely heard a praise tongue after Holy Communion, when the prayer is unregulated since as was said in other threads, “the Church does not want to overregulate the posture of the congregation” I’m sure many would say this is an abuse, but I have never heard a reprimand for this as was given to other movements.

This may not be a personal choice, but it is not Christian to ridicule or condemn.

Lux

Please stop looking for “ridicule and condemnation” when none is meant. That is also un-Christian. I thought we were having a discussion and putting forth our individual thoughts on this. Our thoughts do not agree. Because I put forth my belief and explain why, is not a reason to assume that I either condemn or ridicule. I believe I stated quite clearly in my last post, which was not to you btw so maybe you didn’t notice, that I did not doubt the sincerity of the poster.

When I read your quoted scripture you see to be reading it as “we do not know how to pray physically”. I simply see it as as a reference to “we do not know how to pray as we should with our whole heart and in what we pray for…sometimes the wrong things I’m sure, and how difficult it is sometimes to bring yourself to what God wants and not simply what you want.”

I might add that I was responding to a person who was talking about praying in tongues. If I have expressed my opinion in any way that offends you I apologize.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

As several have pointed out the tongues of “today” and of pentecost are different.

Yes, the tongues of “today” and of pentecost are different. But the tongues referred to by St. Paul in Corinthians and the tongues today seem to be the same. Which is why he says to pray in tongues privately unless there is someone with the gift of interpretation present.

I am not and do not desire to be Charismatic. I have known and admired several Charismatics both priests and laity, but I also have issues with the concept of the Charismatic Movement.

My problem with tongues is that Charismatics take it for granted that the spirit present is the Holy Spirit But there are many spirits out there and without the gift of interpretation, how does one truly know which spirit is manifesting itself. Some Catholic charismatics shun the Mass because when you have the Holy Spirit pouring out of you, what need do you have of the liturgy? Some Catholic charismatics ignore Our Lady. If a Catholic lives contrary to the teachings of the Church but claims to have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and is an active member of the Charismatic Movement, what does that say?

However, that being said let me go back to the “why” of speaking in tongues. As you point out it maybe that it only fills a need in us, not a need in God, but isn’t that true of all the Gifts of the Spirit?

Remember when David brought the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? When it got to the city David was so happy that he put aside his robes took up his harp and danced in his undershirt before the Ark. His wife Michel was so annoyed with him that she mocked him and he never “knew” her again, The Bible infers that God struck her barren for her behavior. Speaking in tongues is (to my mind) undershirt dancing before the Lord. Now I just have to believe that God took pleasure in David dancing for joy in his undershirt and I also believe that God takes joy in people praying in tongues.

Speaking in tongues appears according to St. Paul to be one of the least gifts of the Spirit, But it is a gift of the Holy Spirit and while God does not give everyone the same gift it should be respected.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

My problem with tongues is that Charismatics take it for granted that the spirit present is the Holy Spirit But there are many spirits out there and without the gift of interpretation, how does one truly know which spirit is manifesting itself. Some Catholic charismatics shun the Mass because when you have the Holy Spirit pouring out of you, what need do you have of the liturgy? Some Catholic charismatics ignore Our Lady. If a Catholic lives contrary to the teachings of the Church but claims to have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and is an active member of the Charismatic Movement, what does that say?

None of these are authentic Catholic Charismatics. This is the same as condemning traditional Catholics because there are some cafeteria Catholics who reject some Catholic teaching.

When speaking of the Catholic Charismatic movement, please lets focus on the authentic groups who are connected to a parish or other Catholic authority, and are faithful to Catholic teaching. There is good and bad in every religion.

Lux

 

[mystified]

What constitutes a “Charismatic” Mass?
If they are done according to the book–say the black, do the red–in whatever language, it is the Mass.

 

[Annc]

I have mixed “feelings” about the Charismatic movement. I know very devout charismatic Catholics and I do not doubt their faith. I do have reservations about the movement, however. Please excuse the word “feelings”, maybe opinions, thoughts would be better.

I have heard and read that the Charismatic movement brought the Holy Spirit back to the Church. That the Catholic Church had ignored or forgotten the Holy Spirit and gifts of the Spirit. This alone would or should stop one in their tracks. I thought “Really, do the Saints know that? How did they get to heaven without the Charismatic Renewal?” I knew that couldn’t be what they meant but that is the way it came across. Enough has been said about speaking in tongues and I have all the stated reservations to this “gift”.

If what the Charismatics are trying to say is that you are baptised in the Holy Spirit when you start to really turn you life over to God, yeilding your doubts, problems and suffering to him for hhealing and when you begin that time in you spiritual life when you start to recognise the Holy Spirit in your life and yield to HIS will, then fine. I’m in and I am a Charismatic. If I have to fall down, shout, or anything like that, then nope, not in. Charismatics place a lot of emphasis on the emotion, feeling, feel good kind of stuff.

I recently read Coming to Life by Father Rober DeGrandis, SSJ. He did acknowledge that the experience of being baptized in the Holy Spirit is different for each person and it is a much more subtle experience for a cradle Catholic who has never left the church (me), meaning that someone like me wouldn’t have a “big bang” kind of experience. Most other things I have read or heard about the movement don’t seem to acknowledge that baptism in the Holy Spirit can be gradual or rather sudden. They seem to recognise the sudden conversion experience over the more gradual. Father DeGrandis does review the different ways we need to yield to the Holy Spirit and how freeing that is. Freeing us to follow HIS will. It was worth reading.

Do individual Catholics need to more fully recognise the Holy Spirit in their lives? You bet. Do we need a Charismatic Renewal Movement to do that? Do we need a “group” movement? Probably not. Seems to me that good old catechesis, faith formation and continuing the journey can do the job. You cannot fail to be “baptised” in the Holy Spirit if you open your heart to HIM. It just may be a quieter experience for most of us.

That said, I would agree that the movement reaches those that might not otherwise be reached by more traditional methods and programs. Great! But there is a real danger of getting caught up in the feeling and emotions which leads to putting our self in the center and not Christ.

I attend a prayer group with Charismatics and have for the last year. We have learned from each other. It certainly has helped my prayer life. My observation is that they tended to be caught up in the feel good stuff, literally they liked innovations/abuses in the Mass because it “felt good”. Together we have deepened our love for the Eucharist, our devotion to the Blessed Mother and become more reverent at Mass and Holy Hour.

My guess is that the movement will continue and that over time the language will better reflect theology and experience and that they will need to tone down some of the actitivities during Mass and keep it to a prayer meeting. I hope that the renewal that brings us closer to the Holy Spirit will continue.

I hope that I didn’t not express ridicule or condemnation with this post.

God bless.

 

[ASD]

…we submitted to the magesterium of HMC in 1965 and, in hindsight, were presented a “bill of goods”

Please let us have a Catholic channel devoid of protestant overtones. As far as the East is from the West…

I’m a few years younger, so I didn’t know old Mass until 2007. However, sometimes I feel much the same way. To me it’s an outrageous and heart-breaking irony or paradox:

Consider. If we made a short list of Protestant criticisms of Catholics, close to the top we would put: Catholics are wrong to submit or defer to Rome; Protestants are right theologically, morally and psychologically to rely on their own consciences.

So, what happened in wake of VII? Tens or hundreds of millions of Catholics deferred to their Priests and Bishops against their own better judgment; and many people then and now feel like they got a “bill of goods.”

In other words, they did the right Catholic thing, but sometimes it seems like they thereby proved the Protestant point. Ouch. uch:

We can put it the other way around, too. One result of the thawing of Catholic-Protestant relations in wake of VII is that we are now free to learn from our Protestant brothers.

OK. I’m willing to accept that new teaching. And here’s what I could learn: Maybe we should have trusted our own consciences.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[BSHoop96]

Yes, the tongues of “today” and of pentecost are different. But the tongues referred to by St. Paul in Corinthians and the tongues today seem to be the same. Which is why he says to pray in tongues privately unless there is someone with the gift of interpretation present.

I am not and do not desire to be Charismatic. I have known and admired several Charismatics both priests and laity, but I also have issues with the concept of the Charismatic Movement.

My problem with tongues is that Charismatics take it for granted that the spirit present is the Holy Spirit But there are many spirits out there and without the gift of interpretation, how does one truly know which spirit is manifesting itself. Some Catholic charismatics shun the Mass because when you have the Holy Spirit pouring out of you, what need do you have of the liturgy? Some Catholic charismatics ignore Our Lady. If a Catholic lives contrary to the teachings of the Church but claims to have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and is an active member of the Charismatic Movement, what does that say?

However, that being said let me go back to the “why” of speaking in tongues. As you point out it maybe that it only fills a need in us, not a need in God, but isn’t that true of all the Gifts of the Spirit?

Remember when David brought the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? When it got to the city David was so happy that he put aside his robes took up his harp and danced in his undershirt before the Ark. His wife Michel was so annoyed with him that she mocked him and he never “knew” her again, The Bible infers that God struck her barren for her behavior. Speaking in tongues is (to my mind) undershirt dancing before the Lord. Now I just have to believe that God took pleasure in David dancing for joy in his undershirt and I also believe that God takes joy in people praying in tongues.

Speaking in tongues appears according to St. Paul to be one of the least gifts of the Spirit, But it is a gift of the Holy Spirit and while God does not give everyone the same gift it should be respected.

I think you made some good points here. I might add that while Paul did say “I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you” as has been quoted here, I think it is important to post the rest of the quote which says “but in the church I would rather speak five words with my minds, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.”

In the **New Jerome Biblical Commentary **there is an interesting part:
*Paul’s criticism of tongues indicates that the Corinthians attached undue importance to this gift. The mysterious babble of unintelligible sounds was seen as the clearest sign of possession by the Spirit and so offered enhanced social prestige. *

I guess I’m actually thinking more along your line of thought that the Charismatic Movement, rather than all individual charismatics, is bothering me. I have a fear that some are doing it for their own edification.

And the part of shunning our Lady. While Marian devotion is a personal thing and one does not have to have a particular Marian devotion, I agree that anyone “shunning” the Blessed Mother is suspect as far as I’m concerned.

 

[BSHoop96]

What constitutes a “Charismatic” Mass?
If they are done according to the book–say the black, do the red–in whatever language, it is the Mass.

It is not the Mass if done in unintelligible tongues if that’s where you are going.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

And when has anyone celebrated a charismatic Mass in this manner?

Please stick to legitimate charismatic worship in this discussion. It is so sad to see this misinformation passed along, and the disrespect shown for this approved Catholic movement.

Lux

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

My observation is that they tended to be caught up in the feel good stuff, literally they liked innovations/abuses in the Mass because it “felt good”.

And this is certainly unfair. What abuses? Is it true abuse, or just something you don’t like? To diminish the high praise and uplifting exuberance of Charismatic worship to this summation is very disheartening indeed. This is an optional style of worship, so if it is not a personal preference–just leave it to God, and the authority under which it is.

Just as it is unfair to make judgements on the motives behind the personal expressions of piety in traditional worship, it is unfair to make assumptions about charismatics.

Lux

 

[Annc]

And this is certainly unfair. What abuses? Is it true abuse, or just something you don’t like? To diminish the high praise and uplifting exuberance of Charismatic worship to this summation is very disheartening indeed. This is an optional style of worship, so if it is not a personal preference–just leave it to God, and the authority under which it is.

Just as it is unfair to make judgements on the motives behind the personal expressions of piety in traditional worship, it is unfair to make assumptions about charismatics.

Lux

It is abuse or inappropriate but I already know that in your opinion from previous posts these items are not abuse so we will just leave it at that.

A previouse poster(s) stated that there is no such thing as a “Charismatic Mass” which is correct so if we have “optional forms of worship” during Mass those optional forms are either outright abuse, irreverent, inappropriate, disrespectful, etc. They can do whatever they want during a prayer service.

BTW, I never made a judgement on the motives behind these optional forms of worship, at least not a negative one. I know that they are faithful, devout and love God and the Church. I am able to separate the action from the person.

God bless.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

It is abuse or inappropriate but I already know that in your opinion from previous posts these items are not abuse so we will just leave it at that.
A previouse poster(s) stated that there is no such thing as a “Charismatic Mass” which is correct so if we have “optional forms of worship” during Mass those optional forms are either outright abuse, irreverent, inappropriate, disrespectful, etc. They can do whatever they want during a prayer service.

From the GIRM

1. The singing at this time is done either alternately by the choir and the people or in a similar way by the cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Roman Missal or the Psalm from the Roman Gradual as set to music there or in another musical setting; (2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) a suitable liturgical song similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.55

The options are the same for the offertory, and the Communion chant.
Right or wrong this leaves the music wide open. If someone thinks there is an abuse, they should report it “in charity & truth”
Other options are testimonies of healing after the homily.

BTW, I never made a judgement on the motives behind these optional forms of worship, at least not a negative one. I know that they are faithful, devout and love God and the Church. I am able to separate the action from the person.

If you judge legitimate options as abuses, and say they are done because it makes someone “feel” good, this is very judgemental—there are no facts in your statement, only judgemental opinions.

Lux