S
Sister_Amy
Guest
What do priests who molest children say about Catholicism?
- Status
E
Eden
Guest
I’m still talking about it, because the suppression of women to freely move about and express themselves in Islamic countries is an overall disturbing theme. The “extremes” only highlight how far the Islamic ideology can be taken when it remains unchecked.
E
Eden
Guest
This man is speaking for Islam. He is basing his teachings on Islamic texts. He is not an aberration. It’s just that Islamic theology has no central teaching. It’s very chaotic and inconsistent. But, he is using Islamic theology to suppress a woman’s right to move independently and freely in her environment. When a pedophile priest molests a child, there is nothing in Catholic teaching that can justify it. It is sinful behavior (not to mention illegal). You’re not going to find the accused quoting the Bible or the Catechism to defend his actions. Unlike Muhammad, we don’t revere any religious figures who have married 6-year-old girls and “consummated” the “marriage” at 9.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Freely move about? If they want to move about all they have to do is hire a driver.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
I encourage you to actually study Islamic theology before you conclude it has no central teaching. I can point to a variety of non-Muslims who have sincerely studied Islamic theology and arrived at the opposite conclusion.
My point, precisely, was that he is as much an aberration as your priest. I said he wasn’t telling the truth and you said that reflected on Islam. But in fact he is an example of someone who isn’t holding on to Islam but is holding to culture. Just like a molesting priest is not holding on to Catholicism, but indulging in his own desires.
E
Eden
Guest
How is that free? Women in the West don’t need a middle man to move about. We just get in the car and go.Freely move about? If they want to move about all they have to do is hire a driver.
E
Eden
Guest
I have. The ideology that I have seen is inconsistent and sometimes incoherent. Many times, I feel that I’ve been pulled into a magic shell game in dialogue with Muslims. Now you see it, now you don’t. There is so much that Muslims disagree about amongst themselves and no clear leader to speak with finality. If I ask a question of 5 different Muslims, I get 5 different answers. Not to mention that fact that someone who disagrees with one is accused of dishonesty by the other. Perhaps the man in the video would say you are the one being dishonest. How do we determine who has more authority to speak on Islam than another? Do you see what I mean by incoherent?
How is he an aberration? Pedophile priests are removed from their positions of authority and are jailed. This man was invited onto the program to speak about Islam as an authority within the faith. He is clearly a respected figure. In fact, considering the fact that he is a religious leader, how am I to be convinced that you speak with more authority than he does? And you wouldn’t see a pedophile priest on TV being interviewed about theology! Your attempt to compare the two falls flat. (But we all know your inclusion of the sex abuse scandal was really just a cheap attempt to change the subject.) Catholics don’t elevate men who “indulge in their desires” to violate children. It is Muhammad who violated a child of 9. He is the model for Muslim men, even today, when they explain why they have a “bride” of 9 when they are 60.
K
khutcheson
Guest
Actually, if you read the OP, she asked if a Christian marrying a Muslim was allowed under Christianity.
E
Eden
Guest
My apologies then. She* did* ask about both the teachings from Christianity and Islam. You’re right.
Z
ZuzuBailey
Guest
…not to mention a woman cannot be alone with non family (men)members so how can a driver work?
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
If this is so important to you, that you will not be able to live a happy life without being able to drive where-ever you want, behind the wheel, without a driver… then don’t move to Saudi Arabia, ok? This is such a trivial thing, really.
E
Eden
Guest
I don’t think it’s trivial for grown women to be allowed independence and to drive like adults do.
“Saudi women have mounted growing protests. Fouzia al-Ayouni, the country’s most prominent women’s rights campaigner, has risked arrest by leading convoys of women drivers. 'We have broken the barrier of fear,” she said. “We want the authorities to know that we’re here, that we want to drive, and that many people feel the way we do.’”
I don’t know if this decision remains in effect, as I haven’t heard anything more recent, but some good news:
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1576182/Saudi-Arabia-to-lift-ban-on-women-drivers.html
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
I think the ability to vote is much more important, actually, but think how long it was in the USA before women were allowed to even do that? In some European countries it was much later before women could vote. Aren’t these Christian nations?
E
Eden
Guest
Women have the right to vote in the West today and they can even drive to the voting location to do it. It’s time for Muslims countries to catch up to the West with women’s rights. If a woman doesn’t want to drive or vote, fine, but let her have the right to decide whether she wants to or not. A grown woman is not a child who needs a minder all her life. This is 2008.
C
Christy74
Guest
SIster Amy,
Talking about Women’s Rights, I was reading the Q’uran last night - actually to read the reference you gave at some point in the past - anyway, I kepted going and got to the part about divorce.
It seems that women, should her husband decide to divorce her, has many rights and those rights are protected through the Q’uran and Islam. Some rights, such as not having to give back to your husband what he gifted to you - whereas in the American Courts (at least in CA) you have to give back 50% of everything.
Have a great weekend!
Christy
A
Abbadon
Guest
I know this was a while back, but am I to understand that if i order something, that is not against scripture, my wife has to do it?
Also, what happens to you if you do marry a non-catholic? What are the consequences?
The children are brought up in both faiths. The husband retains his faith and the wife is still a catholic.
Does the wife go to hell?
E
Eden
Guest
Talaq makes it very easy for a Muslim husband to break the marital bond. He just has to say “I divorce you” three times and the divorce is complete. There is nothing the woman can do at that point. This kind of story is so sad:
telegraphindia.com/1080610/jsp/bengal/story_9390489.jsp
The triple talaq:
thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/005-triple-talaq.htm
If the two wish to remarry eachother again after divorce, the woman is forced to marry another man first, have intercourse with him, have him divorce her and then the remarriage between the two parties may take place:
“If the parties wish to remarry after an irrevocable divorce, the law permits them to do so but lays down a condition[al] precedent. The woman has to marry another person and the second marriage has to be lawfully terminated after consummation and the period of probation on account of the second marriage should have expired. The purpose of this stringent condition is two-fold: The husband should realise that the divorce is not an ordinary matter but a very grave step and the second is that the woman gets an option whether to live with the second husband or with the first. The second husband cannot refuse divorce if the wife demands it.”
muslim-canada.org/muspersonallawpt2_3.html
The part in bold shows that forcing the ex-wife to sleep with another man is meant as a punishment to the first husband, but I ask you, who is really being punished here?
There was a case fairly recently in Asia in which a Muslim woman who had been divorced by her husband, desired for a remarriage to go forth. But, her family insisted that she marry a stranger and sleep with him first (as per the rules above) before being allowed to remarry the original husband. She begged them not to enforce this rule, but they were firm that the union with another man must take place first. Rather than sleep with a stranger, she killed herself.
L
Linda_Marie
Guest
I get it from my eye-witness observations of Muslim men while living in Islamic countries for nearly half my life, not only Saudi Arabia, but Iran and the Lebanon as well. Of course, these are general observations that do not fit all Muslim men, but they are applicable to the majority I have known.
We are not talking about Islam here but about Muslim men and what marriage of a Christian woman to a Muslim man entails. I am assuming the OP is a Christian woman so I’m not addressing that point of view. What Islam says, and what Muslim men do in practice are not the same thing. Like it or not, customs come into play between people in the real world, if he has been raised in an Islamic country or not. This is not some esoteric theological discussion, but a marriage between people who come from very different backgrounds. The main difficulties in an inter-faith marriage come from the customs of both parties.
I am not the one who is neglecting women’s rights. It is Muslim men who do that with the support of the clerics who make and interpret Sharia Law. Besides, the laws concerning Muslim marriage still apply to Muslims whether they live in the US or in Saudi Arabia. The same way as Catholics are bound by Canon Law no matter what country in which they reside.
Yes, mothers are respected, but wives, generally, are not. You only ever have one mother and she is irreplaceable. Islam teaches that a man can have any number of wives, either simultaneously (up to 4) or consecutively (unlimited). In addition, in an Islamic country like Saudi Arabia, if he is rich enough, he can have concubines as well as wives. When King Ibn Saud once visited the town where I was, he brought 150 of his women with him, leaving more than that number back in his harem in Riyadh. I bet he didn’t know any of them very well, much less have any love for them, affection maybe, but not love. A Muslim man may be supposed to respect his wife, but when she is interchangeable with any other woman, when he can divorce her without recourse to courts and on a whim, when he is taught to regard her as deficient in intelligence, when he can beat her with impunity (in practice), it makes respecting her hard.
Moreover, most Muslim men have nothing but disrespect for Western women who are regarded as loose because they do not dress or act modestly according to Muslim customs. They consider most Western women to be sluts or whores. I’m not sure they are far wrong with that assessment these days either, just quietly. But it will be a big hurdle for him to get over if he wants to marry a Christian woman. Subconsciously, he will regard her as loose and unless she adopts Muslim ways, he won’t have as much respect for her as he would for a ‘properly modest’ Muslim woman according to his family’s customs.
A Muslim man will give orders to his wife and expect her to obey without question. A Christian woman is not accustomed to being ordered and will baulk at unquestioning obedience.
Women are deficient in intelligence and religion (according to Mohammad) and cannot be expected to share the more important parts of his life, particularly the decision making parts. He will feel that his wife should respect his superiority and defer to him at all times, recognizing her own deficiencies. He will decide things like where they live or the house they buy and will tell her what he has done, expecting her to praise him for his astuteness and his care for her. A Christian woman will have a problem with this because she expects to share in the decision making which affects the both of them and will feel that he has shut her out, relegating her to only domestic duties. When she objects, he will be affronted at her interference in what he has been taught to regard as his province and view her as an unnatural woman for wanting to have (name removed by moderator)ut into what he believes is a male prerogative. He will feel that she should be trusting him to do what is best for the both of them and will resent her lack of trust.
This is just another area where the inter-faith problems can be overwhelming to the marriage. If they discuss these sort of things before they marry, so they are aware of their different ways of doing things, they may have a better chance of making a go of it.
The reason women may not drive in Saudi Arabia is because all women there are subject to and in the control of their male guardian. The law prohibiting women from driving is derived from this and for the protection of men. He is responsible for whatever she does. If she has an accident, he will pay the penalty. If she breaks the law and is convicted, he will also go to jail and receive the lashes, if any are to be administered. An Australian man learned this the hard way when his wife broke the law a few years ago. theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/05/1046826437209.html
ropma.net/300_lashes.htm
S
Sam_777
Guest
well, its not necessary in public, he can say it only once and privately, and his wife will be considered divorced, if he said it three times as you mentioned whether publicly or privately, then he can’t marry her again unless she marries a second man (must perform sex with him) and divorce again to return to her first husband.
S
Sam_777
Guest
Welcome back ZuzuBailey.
- Status