A comment on the Holy Father’s Mass at Nationals Stadium [Fr. Z]

[donmaximuso27]

Having never personally met His Holiness, I not going to presume to know his musical preferances. What he has written has encouraged the use of certain music, but they have not thrown out the use of multiculteral music. In our nation’s capital, were all groups come and gather to exchange ideas, it seems only appropriate that all cultures are celebrated in a mass with the Pope presiding. To me it brought together the idea thast we all part of the body of Christ and must bridge those differences between us.
I’m not certain who you are calling a heritic, anyone who does not follow pre Vat.II doctrine or anyone who is not a fan of the TLM. My understanding of a heritic is someone who goes against the teaching of the Church. It seems that many are so angry about the current doctrine of the Church, that they are very close to falling into that catigory. If that is your idea of Traditional Catholicism. then count me out.

Peace, FAB

I’m not calling supporters of such music heretics, I was simply stating that respect is not the most necessary requirement in theological debates. And the Holy Father has most definitely shown his guidance in matters of liturgical music. If you read his statements, it is clear that the music used today was not the reverent, liturgical music he called for. And by the way, we are speaking of liturgical music, not of the music the Holy Father likes to listen to on his ipod while walking through a park. It would require the personal relationship you speak of to know his personal musical preferences. But liturgical music is not personal, he spoke clearly on the guidelines for reverent music to celebrate a universal mass of a universal church. He is the Pope! It is his job to speak on matters concerning the Church, because he has the spiritual and theological knowledge to do so! And often, he makes clear what is sound for the Church, including the liturgical music.

 

[MattS]

How in the world do you get this out of what I said. How can you jump to such conclusions.

You said something to the effect of “We’ll never get it perfect, so let’s just concentrate on what good we did instead of what we can fix”.

I beg your pardon, but I did not see the Holy fathers mass as corrupt. Where in the world are you coming from.

It was a valid Mass, but the music choices were less than reverent. Corrupt might have been too strong a word.

We did offer our best. We offered Jesus in the unbloody sacrifice of the mass, offered by none other then the Vicar of Christ on earth chosen by the Holy Spirit.

So if we have a valid Eucharist we can fill the rest of the Mass with whatever tripe we come up with that day? Not that they did that at the Holy Father’s Mass (the music might have been bad but I can’t remember hearing any other problems at the moment), but that seems to follow from your pont.

???

They died.

 

[Freshman88]

As the big picture goes, a poor selection of music is small change. Worry about that which attacks our Catholic way of life. Bad music at a mass does not do it.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

Many would disagree and say that you are going about it the wrong way. Save the liturgy, save the world.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I can’t believe your attitude! You honestly think that Our Lord laughs when sacrilege is committed? He does not NEED YOU TO DEFEND HIM?! Are you serious? What would the martyrs who died defending Him say to that?

You are taking the whole comment out of context. What I was laughing at was thinking of our Lord who can do more with one thought, than I could with our entire nuclear arsenal. No, our Lord does not laugh at sin. I will ask one simple question. What defense could you or I have done or given to stop it, even if we were there. As I said, I pray for them, because they need prayers, big time. It seems to me that people, and I am not pointing to you, I am simply saying that too many people make a big thing out of something we have no control over. We can teach our own what and what not to do. But people will end up doing what they want to in the long run. Do I like it, no I do not. But, DO NOT EVER PRESUME TO THINK THAT I THINK LIGHTLY OF SIN OR SACRALIGE., because you are way out of bounds here. The more I think of this, the angrier I get, so I will stop here and say
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[TMGallyon85]

I watched the whole vespers on EWTN online, then watched the beginning of the Nationals mass online. I can honestly agree with the person who said the holy father appeared to be wincing at certain parts of the mass. I did notice the look on his face as he entered. It clearly was not as cheerful as it was at vespers. He almost appeared sad.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Deacon Ed

I have a question sort of off topic…I’m new to Catholicism as I have mentioned several times before but I was wondering if you or someone else could explain what the five non-negotiables for the catholic voter are…forgive my ignorance…I know one is they can’t support abortion.

Also, is there even a candidate out there that a catholic can vote for who has the five non negotiable factors?

Sorry to veer off topic but I didn’t want to start a whole new thread to answer this.
Thank you for your help

The five non negotiables are these

1. Abortion
2. Euthanasia
3. Gay Marriage
4. Embryonic stem cell research
5. Cloning
   We are against all of these, because they are all mortally sinful and harmful to the Mystical Body & society as a whole. All are part of the culture of death. This can be either physical or spiritual death. Hope this helps.
   Prayers & Blessings
   Deacon Ed B

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I read elsewhere that the Holy Father exhorted President Bush to use more patient negotiation in international affairs. That sounds good in theory, but I would hope he could demonstrate its success in his efforts to reform the Church - e.g. pro-abortion politicians receiving Communion. Theories are more attractive when they can demonstrate success.

 

[ProVobis]

I was shocked at the music selections. I believe it was to appease those who would be offended by not showing our “multiculturalism”. There is such a focus on that in our nation today, instead of coming together of Americans. I am hopeful that the music for the events in New York will be more appropriate and inline with our faith and Pope Benedict’s likes.

To be fair, though, all’s I can say is that it’s too bad a Pope never said Mass inside the U.S. prior to Vatican II. That way we’d have something to compare against. But we don’t. We just have to accept things as they are.

Having said that, l wouldn’t jump to any conclusions regarding what was witnessed today. (I admit to listening to a baseball game this afternoon as I was on the road.) Whether Pope Benedict personally likes it or not is neither here or there, but what happended today still falls within the current legislation of the Church. If things get too much out of line, I trust then the Pope or his successor will do something about it, like maybe not visit the U.S. anymore (for example).

 

[Carolinagirl411]

Thank you Deacon, that really did help!!

 

[ReConverted]

Here’s what I posted on the USCCB blog:

**“The music was horrible!!! We have Gregorian Chant, Polyphony, and Classical music to draw on, and we have to endure the musical slop that was presented today? God help us.

What IS it with you aging hippies? Don’t you get it? WE ARE WEARY of your so called “improvements” to Catholicism which are notable only for their heroic banality and lack of fidelity to our Lord Jesus Christ.”
**

 

[ProVobis]

Yet how many will vote for candidates who will support all of them.

Ok but, tougher question, how about betting on those candidates or the outcome of the election? Betting is heavy outside of the US, I hear.

 

[laudamus_te]

You are taking the whole comment out of context. What I was laughing at was thinking of our Lord who can do more with one thought, than I could with our entire nuclear arsenal. No, our Lord does not laugh at sin. I will ask one simple question. What defense could you or I have done or given to stop it, even if we were there. As I said, I pray for them, because they need prayers, big time. It seems to me that people, and I am not pointing to you, I am simply saying that too many people make a big thing out of something we have no control over. We can teach our own what and what not to do. But people will end up doing what they want to in the long run. Do I like it, no I do not. But, DO NOT EVER PRESUME TO THINK THAT I THINK LIGHTLY OF SIN OR SACRALIGE., because you are way out of bounds here. The more I think of this, the angrier I get, so I will stop here and say
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

I apologize if I misunderstood your words, but how else am I to understand this:
“I think our Lord laughed at this as much as I did. Believe me, he does not need me to defend him.”
That came across as a very flippant and unconcerned attitude. I am still unclear as to the intent of your words, so I would appreciate it if you would clarify a little more.

I feel sorry for them and pray for them also. I am not their judge, but I certainly would not wish harm or damnation on them. That is not my job. Whatever the state of their souls may be at the time they are called will determine where they go. I wish hell on no one. That is too horrible for me to even contemplate. My outrage will change nothing. It would be like my little dog barking at the moon. Prayers help. Outrage does not. Yes, we can feel angry, but does it make you feel better if you express it, or just get you worked up., I would prefer to stay focused for the long fight, and not worked up.

I do not wish hell on anyone, either. I do not consider myself their judge. I do offer prayers daily and practice the First Friday and First Saturday devotions in reparation for offences against the Sacred Heart and Immaculate Heart. Prayer is necessary, but also important is to express our outrage to the bishops and priests. How else will they know if we don’t speak? I am sure there was nothing that I or you could have done there at that Mass, that was not my implication. But that does not mean we have no control over this sort of thing. We are the Church, are we not? We are it’s members. If we do not voice our outrage, in support of Our Lord, if we remain silent, then we are no better than the offenders. Silence implies approval.

 

[kleary]

Pope Benedict I am sure had NOTHING to do with the horrifying things I saw and heard today. It is the American Church- not Roman that is for sure. The only traditional music I was able to pick out was Panis Angelicus done as a performance- and the hymn Vene Creator Spiritus…

This liturgy was a concoction of a liturgical committee here in America…led by the American bishops. As the commentators read, the pope must have felt very uneasy- witnessing all the things he has written against over the past 30 years.

The American Church surely has its own agenda in abandoning Catholic Tradition.

Ken

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I apologize if I misunderstood your words, but how else am I to understand this:
“I think our Lord laughed at this as much as I did. Believe me, he does not need me to defend him.”
That came across as a very flippant and unconcerned attitude. I am still unclear as to the intent of your words, so I would appreciate it if you would clarify a little more.

Apology accepted. If I sounded flippant, it was certainly not meant that way. Maybe we should both explain where we come from. I do not feel God needs me to defend him. I feel that would be most presumptuous on my part. He does want me to witness for him. This I try and do every day of my life. The martyrs witnessed for him. They did not defend him, as he does not need our defense. He wants our witness for him in this world. Hopefully this will help.

I do not wish hell on anyone, either. I do not consider myself their judge. I do offer prayers daily and practice the First Friday and First Saturday devotions in reparation for offenses against the Sacred Heart and Immaculate Heart. Prayer is necessary, but also important is to express our outrage to the bishops and priests. How else will they know if we don’t speak?

We agree totally on your first statement here. As to expressing our outrage, for those of us here, there is really little we can do. What we need is for the USCCB to have the intestinal fortitude to speak out against the so called Catholic politicians who vote againsteverything we as Church believe and teach. Many of these politicians, whom I call pseudo-Catholics make a mockery of our faith in their actions, speeches and things that they support. I remember Archbishop Rommell in New Orleans in the 1960’s excommunicating Catholic politicians who were arguing in favor of segregation and fighting to keep it. I think the issues we have today are much more pressing as we are talking about multiples of millions being slaughtered inutero in the misguided name of choice and womans rights. And the list goes on. While what 3was witnessed today was wrong, we do not know what the state of their souls was and should not judge. But by the bigger picture, it is small change. I just wish people would show as much outrage over just abortion. If they did, believe me, things would change.

i am sure there was nothing that I or you could have done there at that Mass, that was not my implication. But that does not mean we have no control over this sort of thing.

I have to disagree with the last part of this statement. If you think about it, we had no control over this. I am sure you do not mean physically preventing their reception of the Eucharist. Action would have to come from a totally united USCCB. I have spoken to several of them and all I was told is that there are things they have to consider which they are not at liberty to discuss. Being in the lowest position in the Church hierarchy, all I can say is yes Bishop.

We are the Church, are we not? We are it’s members. If we do not voice our outrage, in support of Our Lord, if we remain silent, then we are no better than the offenders. Silence implies approval.

Expressing outrage among ourselves solves nothing. Expressing it to our bishops may. I do not know what the other things they have to consider are, but I do know that they want, need and beg for our prayers. Prayer helps more than expressed outrage does. Lets keep it going in an unbroken flow.

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[richardwy]

I agree entirely with Father Z’s assessment.

 

[bkovacs]

I’m not calling supporters of such music heretics, I was simply stating that respect is not the most necessary requirement in theological debates. And the Holy Father has most definitely shown his guidance in matters of liturgical music. If you read his statements, it is clear that the music used today was not the reverent, liturgical music he called for. And by the way, we are speaking of liturgical music, not of the music the Holy Father likes to listen to on his ipod while walking through a park. It would require the personal relationship you speak of to know his personal musical preferences. But liturgical music is not personal, he spoke clearly on the guidelines for reverent music to celebrate a universal mass of a universal church. He is the Pope! It is his job to speak on matters concerning the Church, because he has the spiritual and theological knowledge to do so! And often, he makes clear what is sound for the Church, including the liturgical music.

I noticed that our Holy Father finished giving out communion before everyone else. It kind of looked like he went back to his chair and was listening to his ipod during the rest of the communion service. Can’t blame him!. He was probably listening to some good classical or gregorian chant, until Placido came on. He He!!.

 

[donmaximuso27]

I noticed that our Holy Father finished giving out communion before everyone else. It kind of looked like he went back to his chair and was listening to his ipod during the rest of the communion service. Can’t blame him!. He was probably listening to some good classical or gregorian chant, until Placido came on. He He!!.

I wouldn’t doubt it. Placido was a great relief, that’s for sure. :harp:

 

[ChristopherM]

Here was my blog post for today:

Hey, did anyone hear? The Holy Father is in town, and He held a Huge Mass in the ordinary form in Washington D.C. today. I have been watching the Pontiffs trip very closely and was impressed with the Solemn Vespers last night but was left wanting after todays Mass.

I have had the privilege to be in the presence of Pope John Paul II during world youth day’s 1993 and 2000 and in 1999 when he came to St. Louis. I would like to offer my readers my feelings of participating in an overpopulated open air Mass that resembles what we saw today.

Right away I would like to point out that just watching the Mass today it seemed MUCH more respectful and a bit more reverent than the Mass’ I participated at. In an open air mass the sense of reverence and sacred are lacking, partially due to the fact that we are in a stadium, that we are surrounded by thousands upon thousands - or in the case of Rome in 2000 MILLIONS of people. It is unavoidable to be distracted and the situation has turned into somewhat of a novelty, kneeling can be impaired and weather has played a factor as well.

Sight lines, distance, and noise impedes my concetration on the word and of the sacrifice. Also as pointed out today the music for the liturgy today as in most massive liturgies are not usually considered “Sacred Music”.

I think large liturgical celebrations can be done respectfully and reverently but they are far and few between, the larger the crowd the worse it gets, perhaps there could be a limit set on these in the future - of course when Rome calls to ask me my opinion, you will know where I stand.

 

[brotherhrolf]

This is, of course, the TC forum. I had such hopes last night with the Vesper service. I sang along with the Vesper service last night. This morning/ When did Ubi Caritas et Amor become Ubi Caritas y Espero (o esperanzo) Deus Ibi Est?

When did Spanish become the second language of HMC? Los Cubanos were absorbed here in Louisana. The ethnic makeup of the choir today did not reflect what I am seeing here. So?

 

[ProVobis]

It’s really amazing. One day, the Holy Father holds a prayer vigil and everyone praises its beauty, reverence, music, and every one’s happy to be called a Catholic. The next day he holds Mass and arguments arise. Doesn’t say much for the unity surrounding the New Mass, does it?