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Ortho
Guest
That’s the most intelligent thing I’ve read on this board. I hope some folks follow his example.
A Concern About A British Airline Policy - For Chistians Only (Important)!!
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Neverland
Guest
Dear Ortho,
You said:
I agree one does not have to be a member of a group to observe and study the group. Regarding my observation that most Saudis find Christianity boring, you asked, “Are you a Saudi that you can conclude that?” I’m glad you see that one doesn’t have to be a Saudi.
Different case, my dear. You speak on behalf of the Saudis that they found Christianity boring. And I said as a non moslem that the Saudis are selfish when banning/surpressing other religions.
You also said:
Friday is the Islamic sabbath. Thursday and Friday are the weekend in Saudi. Saturday and Sunday are normal workdays. Catholic priests I talked to in Saudi said they have permission to shift Sunday obligations to Friday.
Why is that? Is it banned to worship in usual day?
You said that:
I didn’t say Christianity was boring. I said most Saudis find it boring.
So how many saudis you met? Have you met at least 51% of Saudi’s population to conclude that?
You said that:
I agree people should do their own research. Part of that research consists of asking people about their religion. If I want to learn about Christianity, I ask Christians. If I want to learn about Hinduism, I ask Hindus.
That’s fine as the first step.
Neverland
You said:
I agree one does not have to be a member of a group to observe and study the group. Regarding my observation that most Saudis find Christianity boring, you asked, “Are you a Saudi that you can conclude that?” I’m glad you see that one doesn’t have to be a Saudi.
Different case, my dear. You speak on behalf of the Saudis that they found Christianity boring. And I said as a non moslem that the Saudis are selfish when banning/surpressing other religions.
You also said:
Friday is the Islamic sabbath. Thursday and Friday are the weekend in Saudi. Saturday and Sunday are normal workdays. Catholic priests I talked to in Saudi said they have permission to shift Sunday obligations to Friday.
Why is that? Is it banned to worship in usual day?
You said that:
I didn’t say Christianity was boring. I said most Saudis find it boring.
So how many saudis you met? Have you met at least 51% of Saudi’s population to conclude that?
You said that:
I agree people should do their own research. Part of that research consists of asking people about their religion. If I want to learn about Christianity, I ask Christians. If I want to learn about Hinduism, I ask Hindus.
That’s fine as the first step.
Neverland
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r.gonzales
Guest
this isn’t exactly the right thread, since the thread’s topic is supposed to be about BMI and their new policy … .there’s always the option of private messages (whether using this forum’s pm system, msn, aolim, or whatever), or another thread. up to you.
.
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r.gonzales
Guest
actually, it’s great as a first step. it’s also something good to keep doing even when researching via other means.
i’d also add, that with respect to islam in particular, trying to learn the language of the religion (arabic) would be a key asset and tool for learning about it.
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Neverland
Guest
Dear Gonzales,
You said:
actually, it’s great as a first step. it’s also something good to keep doing even when researching via other means.
i’d also add, that with respect to islam in particular, trying to learn the language of the religion (arabic) would be a key asset and tool for learning about it.
Good, but not sufficient. Religion is not only about language. It’s the message, the relationship between God and humankind. Don’t worry much about language. God knows all language. And translation has been good nowadays that we can understand about Islam from books translated to English, and contemplating on them.
Neverland
You said:
actually, it’s great as a first step. it’s also something good to keep doing even when researching via other means.
i’d also add, that with respect to islam in particular, trying to learn the language of the religion (arabic) would be a key asset and tool for learning about it.
Good, but not sufficient. Religion is not only about language. It’s the message, the relationship between God and humankind. Don’t worry much about language. God knows all language. And translation has been good nowadays that we can understand about Islam from books translated to English, and contemplating on them.
Neverland
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r.gonzales
Guest
firstly, no one said religion was only about language.
secondly, religion is more than just a relationship between God and mankind; it’s is a way of life, a set of beliefs, morals, ethics, tenets, personal conducts, and mutual interactions.
thirdly, in order to learn about a religion, one must return to that religion’s source: its scriptures and religious literature. in islam, that source is written in the arabic language; the language the Quran was revealed in, the language that prophet muhammad and his companions spoke and that their statements and teachings have been recorded in, the language that the overwhelming majority of islam’s scholars spoke and wrote with. arabic is an integral key to understanding the Quran, and also to understanding the religion’s other major source texts. arabic is the key to islamic knowledge, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
lastly, translations are always lacking, hence the old idiom “lost in translation.” as someone who is fluent in english and can also understand arabic, i can honestly say without any sort of exaggeration, that translating arabic to english and maintaining the exact understanding and full import of what’s being said is near impossible. many of the islamic texts available in english are in need of serious revision and in some cases, retranslation. to say that the number of works available in english as compared to the works available in arabic is miniscule would be an understatement. even with respect to some of the major works that have been translated into english (such as the taareekh of at-tabaree), they are mostly only abridgements of the originals. those made by non-muslim scholars and translators often suffer from the fact that they do not know how to distinguish between what is correct and authentic from what is incorrect and weak. sometimes, as i’ve often seen, these works are translated by those who are hostile towards islam, and end up clipping, distorting, and adding to the text in order to present the text in whatever manner they wish to present it. as for those made by muslim translation and publication houses, with the exception of a small few, many of these are also lacking, but mainly because some the translators are not fluent in both languages, which is a must in translating. so in the end, the best and most reliable way to gain knowledge of islam is to actually take the time to learn the language the religion’s knowledge is found in.
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BryPGuy89
Guest
Very well, my AOL im is BryPGuy89, I wouldn’t mind if you contacted me and shared this information with me.this isn’t exactly the right thread, since the thread’s topic is supposed to be about BMI and their new policy … .there’s always the option of private messages (whether using this forum’s pm system, msn, aolim, or whatever), or another thread. up to you.
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BryPGuy89
Guest
I agree with you on that religion is beyond any simple means. Plus I do support learning the language of the original texts of a religious book to completely comprehend.
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Ortho
Guest
Do you think we really know each other well enough for you to call me “My Dear?”
You did make an observation about selfishness. You also made other assertions.
There is no ban on having Christian services on Sunday. Friday is the day the Christians, Catholic priests, and ministers have chosen for their services.
I have met thousands of Saudis. Do you think one has to meet 51% of a given population in order to draw conclusions about their attitudes? Do Catholics believe Jesus is the son of God? Have you met 51% of Catholics? Has anyone here met 51% of Catholics?
How many Saudis have you met?
I’m glad you think Muslims are a good source for learning about Islam.
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Neverland
Guest
Dear Ortho,
You said:
Do you think we really know each other well enough for you to call me “My Dear?”
Dear is a common word used to greeat someone. If I said Dear Customer or Dear Mr. Thompson, do you think I know “Customer” or Mr. Thompson well enough?
You also said:
You did make an observation about selfishness. You also made other assertions.
There is no ban on having Christian services on Sunday. Friday is the day the Christians, Catholic priests, and ministers have chosen for their services.
Good then. I ask that, because I really don’t know. If you notice, I use Question marks so I don’t think it’s an assertion.
Then you said:
I have met thousands of Saudis. Do you think one has to meet 51% of a given population in order to draw conclusions about their attitudes? Do Catholics believe Jesus is the son of God? Have you met 51% of Catholics? Has anyone here met 51% of Catholics?
Because you make assertion like this:
" I didn’t say Christianity was boring. I said most Saudis find it boring…"
You didn’t say anything that it’s the Saudis YOU MET that mostly said Christianity boring. So I may conclude that you have met at least 51% Saudis to make such an assertion.
I never made any assertion on behalf of Most Catholic, so why you ask did I meet 51 of them? I never talk for them anyway. Please read again.
you then continue:
How many Saudis have you met?
I never said anything for the Saudis as well. Please read more thoroughly.
Then you conclude:
I’m glad you think Muslims are a good source for learning about Islam.
Correction. One of the sources, but in the end you must do your own thinking. That’s what I state so far.
Neverland
You said:
Do you think we really know each other well enough for you to call me “My Dear?”
Dear is a common word used to greeat someone. If I said Dear Customer or Dear Mr. Thompson, do you think I know “Customer” or Mr. Thompson well enough?
You also said:
You did make an observation about selfishness. You also made other assertions.
There is no ban on having Christian services on Sunday. Friday is the day the Christians, Catholic priests, and ministers have chosen for their services.
Good then. I ask that, because I really don’t know. If you notice, I use Question marks so I don’t think it’s an assertion.
Then you said:
I have met thousands of Saudis. Do you think one has to meet 51% of a given population in order to draw conclusions about their attitudes? Do Catholics believe Jesus is the son of God? Have you met 51% of Catholics? Has anyone here met 51% of Catholics?
Because you make assertion like this:
" I didn’t say Christianity was boring. I said most Saudis find it boring…"
You didn’t say anything that it’s the Saudis YOU MET that mostly said Christianity boring. So I may conclude that you have met at least 51% Saudis to make such an assertion.
I never made any assertion on behalf of Most Catholic, so why you ask did I meet 51 of them? I never talk for them anyway. Please read again.
you then continue:
How many Saudis have you met?
I never said anything for the Saudis as well. Please read more thoroughly.
Then you conclude:
I’m glad you think Muslims are a good source for learning about Islam.
Correction. One of the sources, but in the end you must do your own thinking. That’s what I state so far.
Neverland
O
Ortho
Guest
I still don’t think we know each other well enough for you to call me “My Dear.” Is that common usage among Catholics? Do they routinely address strangers as “My Dear?” (But, it does give me the vapors.)
So, you think anyone who makes a statement about the attitudes of a group is saying he has met 51% of them?
Here’s a question: Do Catholics believe Jesus is the Son of God?
I just asked how many Saudis you have met. Given your 51% rule, I presume you won’t tell us anything about them.
I’m still glad you think Muslims are a good source for learning about Islam.
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Booklover
Guest
Is that true, considering that their prophet told them it was okay to lie to unbelievers?
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Neverland
Guest
Dear Ortho,
You said:
I still don’t think we know each other well enough for you to call me “My Dear.” Is that common usage among Catholics? Do they routinely address strangers as “My Dear?” (But, it does give me the vapors.)
Some correction. I am not a Catholic but a Protestant. And for politeness, we use dear when writing letters or anything. Just my habit, I think. And you are the first one complaining about this. Actually, I don’t mean anything when saying dear, except that I think of you as a fellow human being. And of course we need to love one another, because we are God’s creation.
You also said:
So, you think anyone who makes a statement about the attitudes of a group is saying he has met 51% of them?
Only when you said that the group MOSTLY this or that. If not, it’s called hasty generalization.
You then said:
Here’s a question: Do Catholics believe Jesus is the Son of God?
I can’t say about them, but I think they do. You can ask them
You said in the end:
I just asked how many Saudis you have met. Given your 51% rule, I presume you won’t tell us anything about them.
I’m still glad you think Muslims are a good source for learning about Islam.
No. it has nothing to do with me, because I never said anything ON THEIR BEHALF.
Yes, Moslem is one good source of learning about Islam. You may start to teach me then.
Neverland.
You said:
I still don’t think we know each other well enough for you to call me “My Dear.” Is that common usage among Catholics? Do they routinely address strangers as “My Dear?” (But, it does give me the vapors.)
Some correction. I am not a Catholic but a Protestant. And for politeness, we use dear when writing letters or anything. Just my habit, I think. And you are the first one complaining about this. Actually, I don’t mean anything when saying dear, except that I think of you as a fellow human being. And of course we need to love one another, because we are God’s creation.
You also said:
So, you think anyone who makes a statement about the attitudes of a group is saying he has met 51% of them?
Only when you said that the group MOSTLY this or that. If not, it’s called hasty generalization.
You then said:
Here’s a question: Do Catholics believe Jesus is the Son of God?
I can’t say about them, but I think they do. You can ask them
You said in the end:
I just asked how many Saudis you have met. Given your 51% rule, I presume you won’t tell us anything about them.
I’m still glad you think Muslims are a good source for learning about Islam.
No. it has nothing to do with me, because I never said anything ON THEIR BEHALF.
Yes, Moslem is one good source of learning about Islam. You may start to teach me then.
Neverland.
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BryPGuy89
Guest
Please share were in the Qur’an this is stated so we may come to understand. I have never heard this and would like to know were it says this.
B
Booklover
Guest
Bukhari
*Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369: *Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”
Lying for Allah is okay according to the eminent Islamic scholar Imam Ghazali who wrote:
" When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible "* (Ref: Ahmad Ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller , Amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745). *
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BryPGuy89
Guest
Thank you for sharing your sorce. I would have to say that even in the Bible it does have several stories were the faithful deceive to make sure the survival of the Israelite, maybe not lying, but witholding the truth or full truth.
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discipleofJesus
Guest
Where in the Bible are these stories, if they do exist? What are the references to these stories, if they do exist?
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Ortho
Guest
I learned that from Muslims.
And considereing how much lyng I see among all people, including Christians, I’d say the tendency to lie is an uncontrollable variable.
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Ortho
Guest
Sorry. I thought you were a Catholic. So, do protestants normally address each other as “My Dear?” (I’m all atwitter now.)
Do most protestants think Jesus is the Son of God?
I guess we agree that Muslims are good sources to learn about Islam. That’s good. We wouldn’t want to be reduced to the situation where we must learn about Christianity from Hindus.
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
There is a difference between
a Muslim lying **in accordance with his religion **
and a Christian lying going against his religion.
Don’t try and brush this aside by attempting to make it seem like all people lie.
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