A Crossroads of Crisis and Regret: A Request for Assistance

[MiserereMei]

Greetings.

First, I would like to apologize for any rudeness on my part in any conversation in the past.

A lot has happened since May of this year, which has caused something of a crisis of faith. At one point, I was yelling at God in rage, and after I had calmed down, could only bring myself to recite Ecclesiastes 1:2. This began a process of rethinking my faith, questioning why I believe the things I do.

At this point, I see the possibility of my having a continued home in the Lutheran world ever shrinking. There will come a point where I will have to choose between one of two options: 1) return to Rome, or 2) go East. Unfortunately, I have several personal and doctrinal issues that must be resolved before any action can be taken.

Granted, I have many disagreements with Rome, but there are several, which I will not get into here, which I am willing to concede without a fight if others are satisfactorily resolved.

Of the personal issues:

1. Though I am on a hiatus from class, I am a student at a Lutheran seminary, working on my Masters in Religion.
2. I have concerns that my wife would not follow me. She grew up in a rather Romophobic environment (my contemplating joining the priesthood or becoming an Augustinian before we were engaged did not help, and she still refers to Catholicism as the church that almost took me away from her). It has taken me nearly a decade to soften her views.
3. Our parish has helped us tremendously through the difficulties we’ve had lately, and I feel obligated to remain and repay them.
4. Pride. I hate admitting I have been wrong for years, and am afraid of the idea that my work and studies as a Lutheran in Lutheran theology have been all a waste.

Of the doctrinal issues which pose a barrier, though more may come up (best case scenario: I am simply misunderstanding the issue):

1. How can one take into themselves the very body and blood of our Lord and NOT have ALL of their sins be forgiven? [RESOLVED–misunderstanding on two fronts]
2. How can any mortal, or group of mortals, be infallible in any way?
3. I am disillusioned enough to now reject, or at least doubt the possibility of, the notion that any existing church body is the “one true church” which Jesus established.
4. I just don’t see the claims to the universal jurisdiction of the Pope in what I have read in the Church Fathers. Primus inter pares, sure, but not supremacy (Note: I even go so far as to say, as a Western Christian, the Pope is my rightful Patriarch)
5. How can it be a necessity to give the number of times one committed a sin in Confession? [RESOLVED–misunderstanding]
6. I believe that we are saved by Christ alone, particularly through the preaching of his Word and the administration of the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, that we can do nothing to contribute to our salvation, but we can by our own negligence fall away.

I would appreciate any assistance or guidance which may be given.

Gratias vobis ago!

 

[Crocus]

Have you read anything from Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman? He was once in circumstances very similar to your own faith-wise. Known for his “compassion for the perplexed,” he is to be canonized a saint of the Catholic Church this October 13th.

 

[MiserereMei]

Thank you for the recommendation. I have not read anything from him other than his contributions to the Oxford Movement. I will have to add him to my reading list. Can you recommend any specific works of his I should look at?

 

[Crocus]

His works online http://www.newmanreader.org/works/

Could take a year to digest.

Maybe find a good biography. I picked up one at my church library. Don’t remember author name. Will try to find it.

 

[Convert3]

I’ve never once been asked by a priest how many times I’ve committed any particular sin. I’ve seen references to that on this forum, but was never taught that in RCIA or asked by a priest.

I often listen to Dr. David Anders on EWTN, who has a radio show called “Call to Communion” on EWTN. He went to seminary before he converted and is great at answering questions like yours. You might want to give him a try.

 

[MiserereMei]

@Crocus and @Convert3, thank you both for the recommendations!

Also, I was about to look on Logos to buy the works of Newman, so them being available without cost is of great benefit.

 

[Crocus]

@MiserereMei I’ve been reading him online since 2010. The Newman Institute in Pittsburgh has been adding to their digital collection. They are hosting a conference in October. Would I love to be there!

https://www.newmanstudies.org/news-and-events/2019-fall-conference

This might be the title bio, following his spiritual journey and struggles. I admire his humility most of all.
https://www.amazon.ca/Newman-Life-S...ocphy=9001406&hvtargid=pla-649485664447&psc=1

 

[aroosi]

You may want to contact Father George William Rutler in NY. Not only he is extremely knowledgeable in Theology, he is also a Catholic priest that converted to Catholicism and used to be an Episcopalian priest.

 

[Crocus]

specific works of his I should look at

http://www.newmanreader.org/works/england/index.html

The biography though, shows the heart of his conversion.

 

[RoseScented]

1. How can it be a necessity to give the number of times one committed a sin in Confession?

There was a Protestant who posted a video on YouTube about visiting a Catholic church and the priest in that video actually addressed this in the opposite direction. He was asked why the penitent had to tell him how long it had been since their last confession. The priest said it’s to give information which the priest uses to give pastoral advice. He said someone saying they missed mass x-number of times in a year versus that same number of times in a month shows him how much a person is struggling with something and he can adjust his talks to fit.

On a personal note it forces me as a penitent to acknowledge to myself in a quantifiable way how much a specific sin is a problem for me and where I really need to focus in my spiritual life. Hopefully someone else will fill in if there’s another reason. It’s always been helpful to me to say “number and kind” that I’ve never wondered why.

 

[MiserereMei]

@Cecilia_Dympna

She doesn’t necessarily need to (but it would be great if she did). At this point, you have to think of your own spiritual development. Do you mind if I ask you if you have any children?

No. And due to the difficulties I referenced above, children of our own are no longer a possibility for us.

Great. Thank them. But you do not owe them anything.

I guess it is more of a personal honor sort of thing. I have a hard time requesting and accepting help and then turning around and not repaying the people who helped me.

It wouldn’t be a waste. You will still have this impressive qualification.

Ironically, I initially chose my specific institution to help give me a solid grounding in confessional Lutheran theology. My studies have done the opposite, and have left me dissatisfied.

 

[MiserereMei]

Thank you for your prayers.

I have sent an email. I am afraid my work schedule would be difficult to work around. I will, however, try to call tomorrow, if I can find when or if the office is open on Saturdays. Otherwise, I will have to call Monday.

 

[MiserereMei]

There was a Protestant who posted a video on YouTube about visiting a Catholic church and the priest in that video actually addressed this in the opposite direction. He was asked why the penitent had to tell him how long it had been since their last confession. The priest said it’s to give information which the priest uses to give pastoral advice. He said someone saying they missed mass x-number of times in a year versus that same number of times in a month shows him how much a person is struggling with something and he can adjust his talks to fit.

This makes me wonder if 1) the Lutheran Reformers misunderstood the concept, or 2) if there were poor priests in Germany at the time who addressed it in a legalistic fashion, or 3) if the approach changed over the centuries.

On a personal note it forces me as a penitent to acknowledge to myself in a quantifiable way how much a specific sin is a problem for me and where I really need to focus in my spiritual life.

I remember this being a significant personal aid as well. I have gotten more out of my confessions to my Lutheran pastors when I say how much I have struggled. One of the things that drove me away from Rome was, as I am seeing increasingly, a rather legalistic (mis)understanding of everything, seeing everything as rules which must be followed rather than disciplines meant to teach.

@Convert3: Hmm… I wonder where from the Catholic side I got that idea about Confession. Also, thank you for the program recommendation. I have bookmarked the page. I’ll see if the program might be available on some mobile platform so I can listen while driving to work.

Also, @Crocus: I have added that biography to my wishlist. Thank you.

 

[AlNg]

I believe that we are saved by Christ alone, … that we can do nothing to contribute to our salvation,

That is a belief of many Christians, but I have to disagree because I think that God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” And to those who persistently do good, He will give eternal life. And He will give glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good, including Jews who do not believe in Jesus. it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. See Romans 2. Further, Matthew 25: 31-40 indicates that God will reward those who did good works.

 

[Convert3]

You can download the podcast. They have a day to answer emails if you don’t have time to call in during the show. Of course, no guarantees your emails will be used in the show.

 

[njlisa]

@MiserereMei:

I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church. I was received into
the Catholic Church nearly 30 years ago. There was nothing
“wrong” about my upbringing. In fact, my early training in the Bible
led me to the Catholic Church. Don’t make this an intellectual
struggle. Read the Scriptures, pray, attend Mass (without receiving
Holy Communion). Follow where the Spirit leads.

 

[Horton]

How can one take into themselves the very body and blood of our Lord and NOT have ALL of their sins be forgiven?

One should be in a state of grace, all sins forgiven, when receiving the Eucharist. We should be in a state of mortal sin and the penitential is done at every Mass.

There are those who are in a state of mortal sin and take communion anyway, compounding their sin. I agree it is difficult to understand.

How can any mortal, or group of mortals, be infallible in any way?

When the Pope make an infallible declaration, the last one being about 70 years ago, it is as if God is speaking through the Pope.

I am disillusioned enough to now reject, or at least doubt the possibility of, the notion that any existing church body is the “one true church” which Jesus established.

I am also a convert. I came from a mainline Protestant faith. One of the things I never could figure out was who was right. Even the denomination I belonged to had split three times. If these were all the “right” church, why the splitting? Once I started learning about the Catholic Church it all started to make sense. I began to see the evidence for the Catholic Church in the bible. How I know without a doubt it’s true is this knowledge came to through the Holy Spirit and not somebody telling me to look in certain places and how to interpret it.

How can it be a necessity to give the number of times one committed a sin in Confession?

I don’t give a number when I confess. I just tell the priest what my sins are. I am never asked for a number nor denied absolution.

to be con’t

 

[Horton]

con’t

I believe that we are saved by Christ alone, particularly through the preaching of his Word and the administration of the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, that we can do nothing to contribute to our salvation, but we can by our own negligence fall away.

This one is a little more tricky because I think there is a language issue between Catholics and Protestants on salvation. We are saved only through grace by Jesus Christ. We cannot earn it or merit it. Many Protestant faiths believe salvation is a one time event. As Catholics we know it is not. For us it is more, “I am saved, I am being saved, I hope to be saved.” We don’t take for granted that our salvation is a given because we professed our faith in God. This is where the works come in.

As believers in Christ we have an obligation to act as though we are believers. We must treat others with love, we must behave in ways that are appropriate as Christians. We must carry out the acts of mercy, follow the ten commandments, do our best to stay out of mortal sin, and if we fall, confess as soon as possible before receiving the Eucharist. We are obliged to support the Church with our time, talents, and treasures. We must live an authentic Christian life because we love God.

So this is what we contribute to salvation, cooperation with God’s greatest gift to us, saving grace.

*I did not respond to #4 because I don’t know enough about the topic to speak on it.

May God bless you.

 

[GKMotley]

I have added that biography to my wishlist

Good luck on your journey.

You will find, if you have not already, that the author was a former Lutheran minister.

 

[De_Maria]

Greetings.

I would appreciate any assistance or guidance which may be given.

Ok. I’m sure you know that prayer is probably your best help. But, you’ve probably prayed and God has sent you here.

First, I would like to apologize for any rudeness on my part in any conversation in the past.

No problem.

A lot has happened since May of this year, which has caused something of a crisis of faith. At one point, I was yelling at God in rage, and after I had calmed down, could only bring myself to recite Ecclesiastes 1:2. This began a process of rethinking my faith, questioning why I believe the things I do.

At this point, I see the possibility of my having a continued home in the Lutheran world ever shrinking. There will come a point where I will have to choose between one of two options: 1) return to Rome, or 2) go East. Unfortunately, I have several personal and doctrinal issues that must be resolved before any action can be taken.

Granted, I have many disagreements with Rome, but there are several, which I will not get into here, which I am willing to concede without a fight if others are satisfactorily resolved.

This idea that you have to fight Rome is a problem. Remember the Scripture:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
on your own intelligence do not rely;
6 In all your ways be mindful of him,
and he will make straight your paths.
Of the personal issues:

The fight is with yourself, not with God and His Church. If you come to believe that God brought the Catholic Church into existence and commanded her to make disciples of the world, then you need to submit and become a docile student, a disciple of Christ in the Catholic Church.

1. Though I am on a hiatus from class, I am a student at a Lutheran seminary, working on my Masters in Religion.

1. I have concerns that my wife would not follow me. She grew up in a rather Romophobic environment (my contemplating joining the priesthood or becoming an Augustinian before we were engaged did not help, and she still refers to Catholicism as the church that almost took me away from her). It has taken me nearly a decade to soften her views.
2. Our parish has helped us tremendously through the difficulties we’ve had lately, and I feel obligated to remain and repay them.
3. Pride. I hate admitting I have been wrong for years, and am afraid of the idea that my work and studies as a Lutheran in Lutheran theology have been all a waste.

Prayer is the best medicine.

cont’d