A Crossroads of Crisis and Regret: A Request for Assistance

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Of the doctrinal issues which pose a barrier, though more may come up (best case scenario: I am simply misunderstanding the issue):

1. How can one take into themselves the very body and blood of our Lord and NOT have ALL of their sins be forgiven?

You do have all your sins forgiven. But you must resolve your mortal sins before you come to the table or you will commit sacrilege. Obedience is greater than sacrifice.

1. How can any mortal, or group of mortals, be infallible in any way?

By the grace of God.

1. I am disillusioned enough to now reject, or at least doubt the possibility of, the notion that any existing church body is the “one true church” which Jesus established.

That is lack of faith. Everything is possible with God and Jesus wouldn’t have pointed us to the Church if the Church weren’t a big deal. (Matt 18:17).

1. I just don’t see the claims to the universal jurisdiction of the Pope in what I have read in the Church Fathers. Primus inter pares, sure, but not supremacy (Note: I even go so far as to say, as a Western Christian, the Pope is my rightful Patriarch)

Jesus Christ placed Peter in charge of His Church. It is Jesus you are obeying if you obey the Pope.

1. How can it be a necessity to give the number of times one committed a sin in Confession?

Jesus gave the Church the authority to bind and loose. You are not called to understand. You’re called to obey.

1. I believe that we are saved by Christ alone, particularly through the preaching of his Word and the administration of the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, that we can do nothing to contribute to our salvation, but we can by our own negligence fall away.

You contradict the idea of Christ alone when you say “particularly through the preaching of his Word and the administration of the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper”. Christ preaches through His ministers and pours out grace through His ministers in the Sacraments.

Christ speaks and acts through His Church.

 

[Crocus]

author was a former Lutheran minister

Church of England actually.

Edit: author Lutheran. Cool!

 

[GKMotley]

Not Newman. Bouyer.

 

[MiserereMei]

Good luck on your journey.

You will find, if you have not already, that the author was a former Lutheran minister.

I was not aware. I may have to pick up a few of his other books.

I’m sure you know that prayer is probably your best help. But, you’ve probably prayed and God has sent you here.

Indeed. I don’t know yet if it is God or more doubt. I lean towards the former, my wife the latter.

This idea that you have to fight Rome is a problem.

My use of “fight” was more rhetorical than literal, honestly.

That is lack of faith. Everything is possible with God and Jesus wouldn’t have pointed us to the Church if the Church weren’t a big deal. (Matt 18:17).

Yes, the fight is most certainly with myself. And yes, my disillusionment is the lack of faith of a broken man. I do not yet know if this is the Church in her fullness, or just another fragment. I once had certainty. But no more.

I will again be a docile student in the Catholic Church IF I can be shown that said church is identical to the Church of our Lord. It is far too early in the process for me to come close to admitting that much.

Jesus Christ placed Peter in charge of His Church. It is Jesus you are obeying if you obey the Pope.

Ah! Here’s another one–or perhaps, this is a clarification. How do we know that the primacy of Peter (which I freely admit exists) was passed down to successors? It is well and good to say that Peter held primacy among the Apostles, but Antioch also lays claim to Petrine origin. By what certain proof have we that it is the Pope who is heir of St Peter? The Orthodox claim that all bishops share in Peter’s authority.

Jesus gave the Church the authority to bind and loose. You are not called to understand. You’re called to obey.

Indeed he did. But he did not say that those who seek to be loosed of their sins must enumerate them fully. If some other answers on this thread to this issue are accurate according to Catholic doctrine, they are sufficient to strike #5 from my list.

You contradict the idea of Christ alone when you say “particularly through the preaching of his Word and the administration of the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper”. Christ preaches through His ministers and pours out grace through His ministers in the Sacraments.

Christ speaks and acts through His Church.

God works through means. Christ is inseparable from his Church. Specifying the means (the Sacraments) does not contradict that the doer (Christ) is the one who does.

But, I mean this merely to clarify, not to argue.

 

[GKMotley]

I was not aware. I may have to pick up a few of his other books.

Picking up books is always good. Try his EUCHARIST. I never finished it.

 

[MiserereMei]

Picking up books is always good. Try his EUCHARIST. I never finished it.

My wife would like to contest that claim, considering we have three bookshelves doubly-stacked full of nothing but my books in our one bedroom appartment!

Putting Eucharist on the list! Thank you.

 

[GKMotley]

Well, that’s a start. I’ve been accumulating books for over 65 years. You wouldn’t believe the total.

Never too many books. Just too little space to put them.

 

[Emeraldlady]

• How can any mortal, or group of mortals, be infallible in any way?

The debate about ‘infallibility’ has proved to be a nightmare for contemporary ordinary lay Catholics who don’t have a background in Church history/theology. To my understanding ‘infallibility’ is meant to articulate the authority first held by the Apostles after Jesus’ death. While Peter was named the Rock, he was the vessel of the ‘college’ of holy men inspired to guard the authentic Christ. For Jesus’ promise to be with the Church until the end, there just has to be a meaningful manifestation of His Presence on earth. As Peter said to Jesus “Lord, to whom shall we go?" (John 6 68)

 

[AlmaRedemptorisMater]

I will again be a docile student in the Catholic Church IF I can be shown that said church is identical to the Church of our Lord. It is far too early in the process for me to come close to admitting that much.

I understand where you are coming from. My background is Adventist, which viewed the Church as an aberration that took over the early church.

But I realized if that was true, Christ would’ve been wrong when He promised the gates of hell would not prevail.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

How can it be a necessity to give the number of times one committed a sin in Confession?

It isn’t. Where did you get the idea that it was?

A priest might ask for number of times if he thought a person was holding back sins, or if he were trying to find out if the person was in the habit of committing a certain sin repeatedly. A priest might also ask other questions if he thinks he needs the information to decide whether to absolve you or to provide some guidance. Many people also provide at least a general estimate of number of times to show whether this sin is a one-off thing or an area where they are having an ongoing problem. But it’s not a requirement for absolution that you state exact number of times.

 

[MiserereMei]

For Jesus’ promise to be with the Church until the end, there just has to be a meaningful manifestation of His Presence on earth. As Peter said to Jesus “Lord, to whom shall we go?" (John 6 68)

Something to reflect on. Thank you.

But I realized if that was true, Christ would’ve been wrong when He promised the gates of hell would not prevail.

The Church indeed has not nor will ever cease. I fully agree with that. The question is whether or not it, as a visible, apparent institution, is apparently unified or shattered. I will have to study more, especially with some of the resources kindly recommended here, to determine the answer to that. It? She? The proper pronoun for the Church is so much clearer in Latin! I keep alternating in English.

It isn’t. Where did you get the idea that it was?

Apparently, I was ill-informed when I went through RCIA years ago! Perhaps also certain guides to Confession were taken too literally/legalistically. This is indeed instructive. #5 can be stricken from my list, then. Thank you.

 

[AlmaRedemptorisMater]

The question is whether or not it, as a visible, apparent institution, is apparently unified or shattered.

That indeed is the critical question. To my eyes there is only one bastion of unity.

 

[De_Maria]

I will again be a docile student in the Catholic Church IF I can be shown that said church is identical to the Church of our Lord.

You’re asking too much of mere men. We can tell you and show you. But it’s up to you to accept and believe.

It is far too early in the process for me to come close to admitting that much.

Remember, for some, no proof is necessary. For others, no proof is ever enough. You don’t want to be in the latter group.

Ah! Here’s another one–or perhaps, this is a clarification. How do we know that the primacy of Peter (which I freely admit exists) was passed down to successors?

I’ve always found that a strange question. Jesus founded a Corporation. An ongoing concern. He established it’s hierarchy. And proclaimed it would stand till the end of time. Why would they change it? Ever?

It is well and good to say that Peter held primacy among the Apostles, but Antioch also lays claim to Petrine origin. By what certain proof have we that it is the Pope who is heir of St Peter?

I suppose it takes faith. I’ve traced the origins of the Church to Jesus, the Apostles, to Peter through Antioch and to Rome. That’s what I believe. I have enough proof from history.

Do you have more faith in the Orthodox than in the Catholic Church?

The Orthodox claim that all bishops share in Peter’s authority.

Because they rebelled. I believe the Catholic Church.

Indeed he did. But he did not say

Nor did He say that those who seek to be loosed of their sins can question the Church’s authority with impunity.

that those who seek to be loosed of their sins must enumerate them fully.

What does that matter? He gave the Church the authority to bind and loose. You agree that He did. That means they can ask you whatever they see fit. They bind and they loose with the authority of Jesus.

God works through means. Christ is inseparable from his Church. Specifying the means (the Sacraments) does not contradict that the doer (Christ) is the one who does.

Water doesn’t leap out of the bowl and pour itself. Who pours it? And you are not permitted to pour it on yourself. So, God works, but men are part of the means He uses to accomplish His work.

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s co-workers; …

But, I mean this merely to clarify, not to argue.

I understand.

 

[MiserereMei]

Water doesn’t leap out of the bowl and pour itself. Who pours it? And you are not permitted to pour it on yourself. So, God works, but men are part of the means He uses to accomplish His work.

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s co-workers; …

I fear there is a bit of miscommunication between the two of us. I fear that you may be misunderstanding my statement of Christ alone as being contrary to the operation of the Church or her ministers. As of right now, I am a Lutheran. We are not “Me and my Bible alone on the corner with Jesus” Christians. In short: On the matter of the Church and her ministers being means of Christ’s work there is NO disagreement between us!

Do you have more faith in the Orthodox than in the Catholic Church?

Right now, I am discerning. I have faith in neither, though I have a deep respect for both traditions. I am trying to determine which, if either, is the Church of Christ. I do question the construction of the question. Do we have faith in Christ or in the Church? What is the proper object of our faith?

What does that matter? He gave the Church the authority to bind and loose. You agree that He did. That means they can ask you whatever they see fit. They bind and they loose with the authority of Jesus.

The matter has been settled to my satisfaction by other posters.

It seems to me that, for you, the issue of authority is the primary concern. For me, I want an actual reason why something is the case. I cannot rest under a “sit down, be quiet, and just obey” system. In every other context such is almost always the sign of a lack of reason. Why would it be any different in religion? If Christianity is the truth, then there must be reasons, not simply the execution of authority.

More than once, against a couple of my professors who insisted on their position by virtue of their authority, I have consciously and openly opposed them, pointing out the flaws in their position, even if I agreed with the general position they were trying to force on me.

If the Catholic Church demands blind obedience, and views asking for a reason in order to understand the “why” as rebellion, then I have no interest at all in continuing my search, and will begin my search into Eastern Orthodoxy, or else I will remain Lutheran and fight like a dog against everyone around me. Fortunately, this seems to be the approach of only some people within the Catholic Church. If it works for those people, fine. It isn’t the approach that works to convince me, or give me confidence in a position, or draw me to Christ, however. While this may be a personal flaw of mine due to sin, it still must be worked with, no?

 

[De_Maria]

In short: On the matter of the Church and her ministers being means of Christ’s work there is NO disagreement between us!

Ok.

Right now, I am discerning. I have faith in neither, though I have a deep respect for both traditions. I am trying to determine which, if either, is the Church of Christ. I do question the construction of the question. Do we have faith in Christ or in the Church? What is the proper object of our faith?

It’s not an either or question.

Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

The matter has been settled to my satisfaction by other posters.

Ok.

It seems to me that, for you, the issue of authority is the primary concern. For me, I want an actual reason why something is the case. I cannot rest under a “sit down, be quiet, and just obey” system. In every other context such is almost always the sign of a lack of reason. Why would it be any different in religion? If Christianity is the truth, then there must be reasons, not simply the execution of authority.

On the contrary, I’m a revert to the Catholic Faith. I went through all the evidence. But there comes a time when you have to realize that you aren’t God and you can’t know everything and God put His Church here to teach INFALLIBLY.

It’s a paradigm shift that you need to make. But, I believe, it is granted by the grace of God. All we do is show and tell. God makes the growth.

More than once, against a couple of my professors who insisted on their position by virtue of their authority, I have consciously and openly opposed them, pointing out the flaws in their position, even if I agreed with the general position they were trying to force on me.

Yeah, I used to be proud of my ability to deny everything and argue with everyone. Then I learned to submit.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

If the Catholic Church demands blind obedience, and views asking for a reason in order to understand the “why” as rebellion, then I have no interest at all in continuing my search, and will begin my search into Eastern Orthodoxy, or else I will remain Lutheran and fight like a dog against everyone around me.

As St. Augustine put it, “believe and you will understand.” It’s up to you what you want to do.

Fortunately, this seems to be the approach of only some people within the Catholic Church. If it works for those people, fine. It isn’t the approach that works to convince me, or give me confidence in a position, or draw me to Christ, however. While this may be a personal flaw of mine due to sin, it still must be worked with, no?

Yes. But what tool do you use to work with it? Pride?

Go to God in earnest prayer and ask Him to reveal things to you. He will.

 

[OddBird]

As a Reformed minister heading to Rome, there’s much in your post I can relate to.

The marriage issues ; old loyalties ; the fear of shattering meaningful friendships ; the fear that I will have to give up the only field (theology and ministry) I’m competent in and have spent so many years studying ; my pride resisting the admission that I was wrong all those years.

Most of your points have already been addressed. I’m intrigued by your #1 : what is the underlying issue here for you ? My understanding is that the Church takes seriously St. Paul’s warning about receiving the Lord unworthily (1Co 11:27), thus discouraging from communion anyone who is conscious of unabsolved mortal sins, but also believes that the Eucharist is forgiveness of sins :

1393 Holy Communion separates us from sin . The body of Christ we receive in Holy Communion is “given up for us,” and the blood we drink “shed for the many for the forgiveness of sins.” For this reason the Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time cleansing us from past sins and preserving us from future sins.

(Catechism of the Catholic Church)

I’ll be praying for you. I know how difficult this is.

 

[po18guy]

Seeking truth is often a painful and protracted endeavor. Do not worry about what might happen. Simply seek truth and pay whatever price is attached to it. The option is to violate your conscience.

The Catholic Church Saved My Marriage by Dr. David Anders, PhD.
Rome Sweet Home by Dr. Scott Hahn.

Both deal with marital stress - sometimes to the extreme.
As much as you are praying, pray more, trust more, think less. We live in an age and culture in which over-thinking is epidemic.

We complicate matters, when God seeks simplicity. The closer you draw to God, the simpler loving Him is. Why is this? Because He must increase and you must decrease.

Please consider reading the books, if you have not.

 

[Crocus]

the fear that I will have to give up the only field (theology and ministry)

My previous parish was quite large. On staff was a former Lutheran minister and wife, who did family counseling, led bible studies, educational programs, etc.

 

[Emeraldlady]

OddBird:

the fear that I will have to give up the only field (theology and ministry)

My previous parish was quite large. On staff was a former Lutheran minister and wife, who did family counseling, led bible studies, educational programs, etc.

To add to that… my mothers parish Priest is a married convert from the Uniting Church. He is a father and grandfather. He gives the best homilies ever. I took Mum to Mass for the feast of the Assumption. He gave the best Marian homily ever. It is surprising what a convert can bring to the Catholic Church to reinvigorate what we might just take for granted.

 

[OddBird]

That’s awesome !
But I’ll have to find a different path, as this is not an option for me (I’m a woman).