A Crossroads of Crisis and Regret: A Request for Assistance

[MiserereMei]

Well, thanks to everyone for the responses so far! (What am I doing up with only three hours of sleep? Haven’t been able to sleep well since I started this line of questioning on my own a week ago.)

Ok, one at a time!

But there comes a time when you have to realize that you aren’t God and you can’t know everything and God put His Church here to teach INFALLIBLY.

I know my tendency to waver. I left Rome years ago because I couldn’t give an answer, couldn’t find one at the time, and so thought there wasn’t one (the priest I spoke to at the time as well just dismissed me). By the time I found an answer to the question I had been asked, I had been Lutheran for a few years and other theological barriers had already formed. I was young, stupid, impatient. My spiritual counselor had counselled me to just be patient and wait, and an answer would come. I couldn’t wait. I was a convert, and then left, and here I am considering returning. I want reasons, I want convinced, if possible, because I know my weakness only too well. If I revert now or soon, I will still have a year of classwork left at my current school, and my thesis. I want answers, so that, if I revert, I can give reasons why to classmates, professors, family.

And I fear my time in Lutheranism has just made me weaker.And I am tired, disillusioned, broken, afraid, and spiritually alone. And there have been many days where I don’t even have enough faith to pray. I don’t know why I am doing this, or where I even got the idea to start this thread!

Most of your points have already been addressed. I’m intrigued by your #1

Thank you for the quote from the CCC. I just started reading it yesterday, so hadn’t gotten that far yet. I suppose saying that it forgives venial sins, but not mortal sins sounds to my Lutheranized ears like the Sacrament is limited.

As for the points being addressed: Here’s the funny thing. Just a few months ago, most of the reasons presented I would have scoffed at and sought to dismantle. Just a few months ago, I was coming to this forum with a completely different attitude and lens. I’ve let my guard down.

I wonder if the intercessions I have requested in some variation or other lately have something to do with it as well.

“St John the Baptist, you who confessed Christ as the Lamb of God at the Jordan, pray for my wife and I, that we too might recognize and be lead ever closer to Christ our God.”

“St Augustine of Hippo, pray for me, that I might recognize the truth and not pass over or reject it, but that I might rather grow evermore into a better Christian and theologian.”

Both deal with marital stress - sometimes to the extreme.

Both books added to wishlist. Which is swiftly becoming a “check out from the library, because there is no way I will ever be able to afford all these” list. Thank you.

As much as you are praying, pray more, trust more, think less. We live in an age and culture in which over-thinking is epidemic.

Yup.

 

[Emeraldlady]

And I fear my time in Lutheranism has just made me weaker.And I am tired, disillusioned, broken, afraid, and spiritually alone. And there have been many days where I don’t even have enough faith to pray. I don’t know why I am doing this, or where I even got the idea to start this thread!

When I read that line I immediately heard that lovely Seekers song but of course it is from Scripture (Eccleiastes 3)

Everything has it’s time

May God bless you and keep you close to His heart.

 

[MiserereMei]

I’m really sorry about that.

I must have sounded really crass, but I just don’t see where in your post you did say that. You just mentioned some difficulties.

No problem. I didn’t mention anything about it in the final OP. I was told by the system I was being too wordy. Sorry for the misunderstanding my poor editing caused!

 

[OddBird]

(What am I doing up with only three hours of sleep? Haven’t been able to sleep well since I started this line of questioning on my own a week ago.)

You and me both !

I suppose saying that it forgives venial sins, but not mortal sins sounds to my Lutheranized ears like the Sacrament is limited.

I’m not sure this is a completely orthodox answer, but I see it a bit differently. I see it as manifesting a deep respect for the Lord, and I try not to forget that if you are in a state of grace, that’s because of the power of another sacrament, in which He is present as well.

I wonder if the intercessions I have requested in some variation or other lately have something to do with it as well.

I’m sure it has !

Hang in there. And find a priest you can talk to ; that’s a huge help on the journey.

 

[QwertyGirl]

I have a hard time requesting and accepting help and then turning around and not repaying the people who helped me

Many do. Perhaps embrace the concept of paying forward, rather than paying back.

 

[MiserereMei]

You and me both !

Thank God for coffee!

I’m not sure this is a completely orthodox answer, but I see it a bit differently. I see it as manifesting a deep respect for the Lord, and I try not to forget that if you are in a state of grace, that’s because of the power of another sacrament, in which He is present as well.

Well I feel stupid:

The people have grown accustomed to receiving the sacrament together—all who are fit to do so. This also increases reverence and respect for public ceremonies. For people are admitted only if they first had an opportunity to be examined and heard. The people are also reminded about the dignity and use of the sacrament—how it offers great consolation to anxious consciences—so that they may learn to believe in God and expect and ask for all that is good from God. Such worship pleases God, and such use of the sacrament cultivates piety toward God.

Quoted from: Robert Kolb, Timothy J. Wengert, and Charles P. Arand, The Book of Concord: The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2000), 69.

How is it that, in trying to be more faithful to the Augsburg Confession and Luther’s Small Catechism, I am finding myself drifting away from Lutheranism?!

Many do. Perhaps embrace the concept of paying forward, rather than paying back.

I’m sorry. Could you explain this a bit further?

 

[QwertyGirl]

I’m sorry. Could you explain this a bit further?

Often times when we are shown kindness or compassion, it isn’t possible to pay it back. This may be due to circumstance or situation. Sometimes the person doing the initial kindness doesn’t want or need to have the favor paid back to them.

In these cases, pay it forward. That means to take the energy and resources you would have expended to pay it “back” and instead pay it to someone else who will benefit from it.

To give a simple example: One time I got a flat tire. I very nice gentleman stopped and helped me. I was out in the middle of nowhere. I was so appreciative and asked how I could pay it back to him (the favor). He said “just pay it forward”. That is what I did. Later that week I drove by the local charity food bank in our town, and I was reminded to pay the favor forward. I stopped at the grocery store and picked up a back of groceries and dropped them off at the charity, with the specific intention of “paying forward” the favor of the kind gentleman who had helped me earlier in the week.

“Paying it Forward” is a way of making sure we aren’t always taking, and we are contributing to our fellow humans. It shouldn’t be considered a way of “keeping score”, I must caution. Do I give to the food bank even when I am not “paying it forward”? Of course I do, but Paying it Forward keeps me aware of the fact that others have helped me, I help others, and it is sort of what we are supposed to do. And it keeps me away from feeling low because sometimes there really is no way to pay someone back for the goodness they show me.

 

[MiserereMei]

@QwertyGirl: Hmm. I see. Thank you for the explanation. I will have to consider this.

 

[Annie]

I am disillusioned enough to now reject, or at least doubt the possibility of, the notion that any existing church body is the “one true church” which Jesus established.

This was resolved for me by a consideration of this:

• [16] Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.*

To me, this shows that God is perfectly capable and willing to give us revelatory information.

I just don’t see the claims to the universal jurisdiction of the Pope in what I have read in the Church Fathers.

And the rest of that conversation helps me as well:

• And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.*

Here, Jesus is giving Peter the authority (keys to the Kingdom), and the powers (binding and looking), and He gives these to Peter alone, as evidenced in His use of the singular thee.

Contrast that to when Jesus gave the Apostles the power to bind and loose, when He uses the plural you:

Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

There is a book dedicated to this question: Jesus, Peter, and the Keys, with lots of quotes from Orthodox and Protestant sources.

 

[MiserereMei]

I suppose part of my problem on this is, while the Catholic interpretation of the passage makes sense, I still have the Lutheran interpretation in mind. Now, I do have to wonder if they are not mutually exclusive, but that there can be an understanding incorporating both. I imagine there might well be, but I have forgotten and misunderstood so much.

For the Catholic interpretation: What specifically is the meaning of the binding and loosing which both Peter and the rest of the apostles share? How is this different from the keys given to Peter alone?

For the Lutheran interpretation, the keys and the binding and loosing are synonymous and are identified with the forgiveness and retention of sins. Thus, while all the apostles are given the power of forgiveness and retention of sins, Peter is honored above the rest as he was the first to confess Jesus as the Christ. However, the power of the keys is the binding and loosing, which all apostles share.

 

[Annie]

The power of the keys is clarified by understanding that when a king left a vicar in charge he gave him the keys to the kingdom. Notice that 1. the Apostles didn’t get any keys, and 2. their ability to bind and loose was in the context of forgiving sins, while Peter’s was on the context of assuming the king’s authority while the king was gone.

 

[OddBird]

How is it that, in trying to be more faithful to the Augsburg Confession and Luther’s Small Catechism, I am finding myself drifting away from Lutheranism?!

Truth has a way of doing that
It’s the same for me with the Bible. The more I read it, the more it leads me to the Church.

 

[MiserereMei]

The power of the keys is clarified by understanding that when a king left a vicar in charge he gave him the keys to the kingdom. Notice that 1. the Apostles didn’t get any keys, and 2. their ability to bind and loose was in the context of forgiving sins, while Peter’s was on the context of assuming the king’s authority while the king was gone.

Do you perhaps have a reference for that off hand? Thank you.

Truth has a way of doing that
It’s the same for me with the Bible. The more I read it, the more it leads me to the Church.

You know, this reminds me that after I presented a paper on St Romanos the Melodist and his interpretational methods as exhibited in his Kontakia, one of the first questions I was asked by a classmate was (his tone was positive): “Why exactly did you join the mess that is Lutheranism?”

 

[De_Maria]

I know my tendency to waver. I left Rome years ago because I couldn’t give an answer, couldn’t find one at the time, and so thought there wasn’t one (the priest I spoke to at the time as well just dismissed me). By the time I found an answer to the question I had been asked, I had been Lutheran for a few years and other theological barriers had already formed. I was young, stupid, impatient. My spiritual counselor had counselled me to just be patient and wait, and an answer would come. I couldn’t wait. I was a convert, and then left, and here I am considering returning. I want reasons, I want convinced, if possible, because I know my weakness only too well. If I revert now or soon, I will still have a year of classwork left at my current school, and my thesis. I want answers, so that, if I revert, I can give reasons why to classmates, professors, family.

Been there, done that.

And I fear my time in Lutheranism has just made me weaker.And I am tired, disillusioned, broken, afraid, and spiritually alone. And there have been many days where I don’t even have enough faith to pray. I don’t know why I am doing this, or where I even got the idea to start this thread!

Keep praying. Do God’s will. Put Him first by putting others first.

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

And continue to pray without ceasing.

 

[VeryBlessed]

Regarding OP point 3… I am glad you’re disillusioned, because beneath that is your deep longing for God and pure truth. But about no existing church being the one true church, I have this perspective as a revert after many years in really good non-Catholic churches. Dismissing any non-Catholic church as the 1TC was rather easy. I don’t doubt their good intentions, but there was always a flaw in their bedrock beliefs. Not so in Catholicism. When Catholicism fails, it fails not in what it is, but rather, it fails to live up to what it is. Other churches, to me, fail in what they are.

And if God were to refuse to give that 1TC authority to one particular church, then imagine a world with 30,000 denominations and no Catholic Church. Which one is the most right? Absolutely no way of knowing. Can you see God doing that, leaving his people shepherdless, especially in the long years between the passion of Christ and the invention of the printing press, when owning your own bible was unthinkable?

Don’t despair. The disunity of Christendom should deeply trouble all of us who follow Jesus. Reread John 17 and see again how Jesus burned with the desire that we be one - his last prayer before the cross! But there is a shepherd you can trust, not one particular priest or even one particular pope, but the magisterium, the divine teaching authority of the church, working unfailingly through imperfect people.

 

[Annie]

Do you perhaps have a reference for that off hand?

Oh, I thought it was a well-known thing! Anyway, Isaiah 22 talks about how God will depose one king and replace him. It’s very interesting on a lot of levels.

 

[MiserereMei]

Oh, I thought it was a well-known thing! Anyway, Isaiah 22 talks about how God will depose one king and replace him. It’s very interesting on a lot of levels.

Why didn’t I remember this? Oh right. Because I’m weakest with the Prophets and get things jumbled up there.

Also, @VeryBlessed, overall a very thoughtful response, but especially

And if God were to refuse to give that 1TC authority to one particular church, then imagine a world with 30,000 denominations and no Catholic Church. Which one is the most right? Absolutely no way of knowing. Can you see God doing that, leaving his people shepherdless, especially in the long years between the passion of Christ and the invention of the printing press, when owning your own bible was unthinkable?

needs reflecting on. I need to think more on the Christological implications of my beliefs. What am I willing to say about Christ with what I confess to be true?

 

[VeryBlessed]

need to think more on the Christological implications of my beliefs. What am I willing to say about Christ with what I confess to be true?

Love this statement. Part of what drew me back to Catholicism is this. If non-Catholics are right that the CC abandoned true belief, then they must be right in saying that true faith died for some 1200+ years. But Jesus said the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth, and, I will never leave you or forsake you, and, lo I will be with you always even unto the end of the age. I just could no longer believe that God would let his church lose its grip on truth for those long years. The implications of God abandoning so many generations of people prior to the invention of the printing press and subsequent reformation are unthinkable.

 

[Annie]

Oh, I thought it was a well-known thing!

Not the biblical part, necessarily, but we give people the keys to cities, I mean, that used to be a cultural idea, not that I know we really did it.

I need to think more on the Christological implications of my beliefs.

One of the things that struck me about the non-Catholic churches was that they had different ideas about things. Take baptism: it’s a symbol, it’s a sacrament, it is reserved for adults, it should be done to children, sprinkling is fine, total immersion is necessary…

And that is just the beginning of Christian life! It goes on. So would Christ leave us alone with a book which wasn’t even finished at the time? Or did He really mean it when He said that the Apostles should go out and teach all nations?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Yup.

One of the main reasons I converted right there.

I don’t believe Jesus let the Church go astray for a thousand years until Luther and reformers decided to swoop in and ‘fix’ it. That is just unfathomable to me. Because there is no historical evidence for a group of baptists in the wilderness preserving ‘true’ Christianity outside of RCC…it’s absurd but folks actually believe that.