A Crossroads of Crisis and Regret: A Request for Assistance

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VeryBlessed said:
Love this statement. Part of what drew me back to Catholicism is this. If non-Catholics are right that the CC abandoned true belief, then they must be right in saying that true faith died for some 1200+ years. But Jesus said the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth, and, I will never leave you or forsake you, and, lo I will be with you always even unto the end of the age. I just could no longer believe that God would let his church lose its grip on truth for those long years. The implications of God abandoning so many generations of people prior to the invention of the printing press and subsequent reformation are unthinkable.
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Of course, a well-catechized Lutheran shouldn’t have much to quibble about here. The issue is in the fine details.

However, I do think the Lutherans have a severe weakness in that they have a “paper pope” (as a Lutheran pastor once jokingly discribed the Book of Concord). I suppose it is a condemnation of the idea of not having a living voice that Lutherans (I don’t care much for the contradictions and variabilities of the other Protestants), who should be united by a common Confession, are so divided that they have numerous denominations in the US alone. That we can’t even agree to what degree the BoC is normative.

I can’t count how many crises of faith I have had since leaving Rome. I seem to have at least one a year: my faith is shattered, my theology thwarted, and I am forced to rebuild all over again. I am not even the same kind of Lutheran I was just a year ago, let alone two or three years ago! My wife is tired of the constant changing, and thinks that I will just keep changing and hopping around if I leave Lutheranism, so (says she) I might as well just stay. She says she can’t feel like she can really attach herself to any denomination. Magna sunt peccata mea!
 
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There are so many good books and videos. Sounds like you left Catholicism with questions but are now in the position of learning an adult faith. Catholicism is at once extremely simple and profoundly deep. I dont know if anyone has suggested The Journey Home episodes on YouTube to you. Many feature Lutherans who converted to Catholicism. Study and read, but above all pray. Newman’s Apologia Pro Vita Sua is indeed excellent. He also wrote Lead, Kindly Light as he strove to follow the Light.
 
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MiserereMei said:
  • How can any mortal, or group of mortals, be infallible in any way?
  • I am disillusioned enough to now reject, or at least doubt the possibility of, the notion that any existing church body is the “one true church” which Jesus established.
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I’ll start this off very simply.

Infallibility is very often a mistaken understanding; applying only in v.limited circumstances

E.G. Would we consider Peter to speak infallibly
when God’s Holy Spirit was speaking though Peter at Pentecost?

As to THE CHURCH… What is thy take on these official Catholic Documents… ?

They are Long . So perhaps a fair skimming should suffice…

The Mystical Body/Church of Christ
http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x...ii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi.html

Lumen Gentium - On the Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Are they Acceptable to you?

PEACE
 
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EndTimes said:
As to THE CHURCH… What is thy take on these official Catholic Documents… ?

They are Long . So perhaps a fair skimming should suffice…
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I will notify you of what I think after giving them a good read. It may be a while, they are indeed long, and I have to start getting ready for work (read: get enough sleep to function) soon.
Limoncello4021 said:
I dont know if anyone has suggested The Journey Home episodes on YouTube to you. Many feature Lutherans who converted to Catholicism. Study and read, but above all pray. Newman’s Apologia Pro Vita Sua is indeed excellent. He also wrote Lead, Kindly Light as he strove to follow the Light.
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Thank you for the recommendations. I have quite a bit to listen to, read, and watch.

Prayer… that reminds me. I wonder if when I have my meeting with the priest at the nearby parish if I could ask him to bless my rosary (I gave away my old one about a year after I left; I bought a new one about two years ago). It has been getting increasing use lately. I don’t think I prayed the rosary this much before I left.
 
I wanted to give an update, but I can’t seem to edit my original post again. Here is the quote and the intended edit.
MiserereMei said:
Of the doctrinal issues which pose a barrier, though more may come up (best case scenario: I am simply misunderstanding the issue):
  1. How can one take into themselves the very body and blood of our Lord and NOT have ALL of their sins be forgiven? [RESOLVED–misunderstanding on two fronts]
  2. How can any mortal, or group of mortals, be infallible in any way?
  3. I am disillusioned enough to now reject, or at least doubt the possibility of, the notion that any existing church body is the “one true church” which Jesus established. [RESOLVED–by the desire for a solid Christology]
  4. I just don’t see the claims to the universal jurisdiction of the Pope in what I have read in the Church Fathers. Primus inter pares , sure, but not supremacy (Note: I even go so far as to say, as a Western Christian, the Pope is my rightful Patriarch)
  5. How can it be a necessity to give the number of times one committed a sin in Confession? [RESOLVED–misunderstanding]
  6. I believe that we are saved by Christ alone, particularly through the preaching of his Word and the administration of the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, that we can do nothing to contribute to our salvation, but we can by our own negligence fall away.
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@EndTimes Quick note: I was going to respond more fully after I at least skimmed the documents you linked. I wasn’t ignoring you, I promise!
 
MiserereMei said:
@EndTimes Quick note: I was going to respond more fully after I at least skimmed the documents you linked. I wasn’t ignoring you, I promise!
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Thank you and please do - and in doing so - you’ll know more than many others - IMHO. 🙂

I can also suggest a few passages of that encyclical for the sake of Time…

Connected

The CHURCH? Those who are members of Christ’s Spiritual Body aka God’s Temple?

Those Saved Yet Still Awaiting the Resurrection / Judgement
Those still Alive
Those in Heaven…

Peace, Brother…
 
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EndTimes said:
I can also suggest a few passages of that encyclical for the sake of Time…

Connected

The CHURCH? Those who are members of Christ’s Spiritual Body aka God’s Temple?

Those Saved Yet Still Awaiting the Resurrection / Judgement
Those still Alive
Those in Heaven…
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Thank you for the direction! About to eat dinner then go to bed. I’ll try to make headway in the reading during my breaks at work tonight.
 
MiserereMei said:
Thank you for the direction! About to eat dinner then go to bed. I’ll try to make headway in the reading during my breaks at work tonight.
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Pleasant and Profitable Dreams >

Lumen Gentium is a longish beautiful read.

PS - A potentially interesting Paragraph from the Long Encyclical Mystici Corporis - directed toward Protestantism , Of course realize that by definition, Catholics and Protestants cannot be in 100% Agreement

103. As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly.[194] Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the “great and glorious Body of Christ”[195] and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.[196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love.[197] Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger’s house, but to their own, their father’s home.
 
MiserereMei said:
How can any mortal, or group of mortals, be infallible in any way?
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Concerning this point, well, momentarily by the Holy Spirit. Isn’t that how all Christians see scripture, for instance, as infallible, and yet written down by mere mortals like us? Those who penned it were in a beautiful moment when they had fully yielded to the Holy Spirit and yet were fully conscious, fully alive, with intellect fully engaged. It’s my understanding that this doctrine of Infallibility for Popes or anyone, is not a universal infallibility over all they say for a lifetime - that only Jesus could claim & do. This momentary guarantee of infallibility is very much tied up with the divine teaching authority of the church. If as believers we have any sense of the Holy Spirit indwelling US, then I’ll bet that each of us have had moments when we said exactly the right words in the right moment, that greatly encouraged or blessed someone in their faith. Could we then say that perhaps, for that moment, cooperating with the Holy Spirit, we also spoke infallibly? Why would God gives us all the Holy Spirit if not to speak divine truth through us as we will allow it? So perhaps moments of infallibility are possible for all of us.
 
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I believe you might be happy to note that I just finished a deb-- er… conversation with my younger brother where I not only took a vastly different moral stance than I did just half a year ago, but defended and promoted Papal supremacy and infalliability.

By the end of the conversation, I looked back over our messages and found myself surprised by my own position.
 
An update: I just scheduled a meeting with the priest at the nearest Catholic parish (when he heard how close I lived to the parish, he laughed and said, "Oh! So you’re one of ours anyway!’) for Thursday.

I also arranged to spend some time before the Tabernacle today.
 
So, I just wanted to give another update.

I met the priest, who gave me a quick tour of the church with a bit of its history, asked what had brought me to visit, and blessed my rosary. Before I left, he said that he would pray for my wife and I, and asked that I pray for the parish. He said Thursday we would talk more about my particular concerns and we would figure out what was the best course to take.

The parish is relatively small, poor, and struggling (he happily said that the bishop had very recently promised that the parish would stay open in perpetuity, despite this); it is bilingual, serving in a very diverse part of town. The Lutheran parish my wife and I are members of is one of the largest and wealthiest churches in town. Despite my adoration of the romanesque architecture of the Lutheran parish we have attended, there was a palpable, immediate, and enduring difference of feeling—old, familiar, captivating.

My theological doubts, objections, and questions no longer matter to me.

I want to go home.
 
“she still refers to Catholicism as the church that almost took me away from her”…about that…the one suggestion I’d offer is this. Read Father Dwight Longenecker’s Blog very carefully. He is a Catholic Priest. He was married Anglican Clergy before converting to Catholicism. To have someone like this sharing part of his story online is very helpful.


One of my favorite Saints is Saint Ignatius. I seem to get Ignatian spirituality. Ignatius talks about consolation and desolation. Being in consolation means moving towards God, and desolation means the opposite. One of the most important things is to not make major decisions when in desolation. It sure seems like you are in desolation. I’d recommend that you keep doing your search. It sounds very meaningful. I’d recommend doing it really quietly too…just saying…
 
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Thank you for the recommendation. Blog bookmarked.

I will keep in mind the words of St Ignatius. I do think, however, there is a difference between being broken and desolation. I will agree that about two months ago now, it was very much desolation, to the point of me cursing God!

However, being broken can be thought of as being put in one’s place before God, being forced to acknowledge one’s sins and need to repent. It is, I think, the way God brings stubborn, proud souls to him.
jack63 said:
I’d recommend doing it really quietly too…just saying…
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Yeah… that’ll be a problem for me. It is hard for either my wife or I to keep secrets from each other (when we went to a Lutheran parish that had regular confession times, she would often effectively hear my confession before the pastor did!). I am surprised I haven’t blurted out “I’m thinking of going back to Catholicism!” at the dinner table yet. I want to at least have an in-depth conversation with the priest first and form a plan.
 
@EndTimes,

I actually used your question with my brother in the conversation I mentioned in this thread.

If one says “No, Peter did not speak infallibly on Pentecost”, then one must have the conclusion that the Scriptures are faulty. If one says “Yes, but it is because it is Scripture”, then one must conclude that the events of Scripture are in some way ahistorical, really outside regular time and not really connected to us.

So, if one wishes to maintain the reliability of Scripture, with the eternal nature of God, one must say that Peter both spoke infallibly at Pentecost and that it is possible for people to speak infallibly now. The questions then become:1) When and where does this happen? And 2) How can one tell when it happens?

For that, there are three main answers, as far as I have seen. Only one really has the potential to speak as a living voice today in order to settle disputes. The others tend to get bogged down in questions of semantics and reliability.

As an aside: Thank you for recommending those documents. Lumen Gentium was one of the clearest takes on ecclesiology I have read.
 
MiserereMei said:
I actually used your question with my brother in the conversation I mentioned in this thread.

If one says “No, Peter did not speak infallibly on Pentecost”, then one must have the conclusion that the Scriptures are faulty. If one says “Yes, but it is because it is Scripture”, then one must conclude that the events of Scripture are in some way ahistorical, really outside regular time and not really connected to us.

So, if one wishes to maintain the reliability of Scripture, with the eternal nature of God, one must say that Peter both spoke infallibly at Pentecost and that it is possible for people to speak infallibly now. The questions then become:1) When and where does this happen? And 2) How can one tell when it happens?

For that, there are three main answers, as far as I have seen. Only one really has the potential to speak as a living voice today in order to settle disputes. The others tend to get bogged down in questions of semantics and reliability.

As an aside: Thank you for recommending those documents. Lumen Gentium was one of the clearest takes on ecclesiology I have read.
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Thank you… I appreciate it…

Wrt Peter at Pentecost - in essence - that’s God’s Holy Spirit speaking through them. God’s Words.

The Catholic Church has a Doc which asserts that God’s Holy Spirit can indeed speak to a person, as in genuine private revelation… Note - It doesn’t say - all persons…
When/If it occurs - said person can not claim that it’s on the level of Scripture aka “New Revelation”
but instead should bring it before the congregation
When/If it occurs - one should/shall know.
How? IMHO, etc., e.g., It requires unwavering Faith that God indeed can hear you IF you speak to Him.
Via Prayerfully Studying Scriptures With the Author - is one potential approach.
However - All is always up to the Will of God.

Getting bogged down in never-ending ‘theological’ explorations of semantics and their ilk -
seems as the work of Satan…

Presenting the Gospel … along with those genuinely interested … trumps those dead end paths…

_
 
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