A decent talk

[ralphinal]

I think especially in the United States we are ethnocentric enough to think Democracy is The Only Way – a kind of exalted, God-created way of life. I’m not defending other forms of government – I’m just saying let’s let them evolve in their own way and keep our noses out of their business. I don’t claim to be an expert on the Islamic religion in any way, but it bothers me that we think we Christians are especially chosen by Him above other human beings. We were born and raised Christians, just as they were born and raised Islamic – human beings equally loved by God.

I don’t feel any better about myself because I am Christian, but I do know TONS who fit that description. So, are we to toally stop trade with them? Should we overlook human rights abuses in these nations? Do we allow the modern martyrs to die silently while we live and let live?

 

[Alisa]

Ralphinal, you raise some good points, and I don’t have the answers to those questions. “Am I my brother’s keeper?” and "Who is my brother? – basically. Some Islamic people feel our excesses and free-and-easy way of life are evil, so they feel justified in committing “911” type atrocities. As we condemn actions like that, we also should condemn the desire in ourselves to run around the world feeling superior and enlightened and that we need to impose our beliefs on everybody no matter where they’re coming from.

I think we should hold our heads up and do what we know is right and allow others to follow their own consciences – I guess. Heaven knows I don’t have the answers.
Respectfully, Alisa

 

[Philthy]

Well the Prophet(pbuh) pretty much had the final say in the meaning.

Thanks for your answers Nick. Im a little confused, however. Prophet(pbuh) was illiterate, correct? So he had others writing down everything he wanted recorded, but he never had anyone write down the “no-nonsense” version of what the Quran means? Are you certain he actually claim to be the interpreter of his own revelation, or is this simply assumed by you?
Where is the “final say” of what the “meaning” of the Quran is? It sounds to me very much like the situation which exists in Protestant Christianity with the doctrine of sola scriptura.

But now a days it is pretty much up to the persons thoughts combined with scholars thoughts and their sheik.

So how do I know you are providing us with the true Islam?
How do you know you have been presented the true meaning of Islam?

 

[YADA]

Blessings Nicro,

Christians believe that there is One God and only One God…The Trinity is a mystery…the Three Persons is understood in the Greek meaning “personas” . Not three “people” like the three stooges or Ton, **** and Harry…

While a profound mystery it is understood as well as we motals can understand it … Trinity is relational … in how One Being [God] relates to his creation [us]… and how his creation relates to the One God…

For example, I am one person, Me, I am not more than the one being … All at the same time, I am my parents child [a daughter], my siblings sister, a wife, the mother to my children, a grandmother, a friend, an employor, a citizen of the United States, etc. I am One Person but I relate to those around in in vstly different ways…and the roles can come and go through linear time and / or I can be several all at once [at large family gatherings for example]

God entered time [through the person of Jesus] and yet stands outside of time…One of the mysteries of the Trinity is not that there are Three Persons but that the Perfection of God is contained in those Three Persons and not more…The Trinity is the perfection of Love, the perfection of Creation, the perfection of Family…all else is imitation and cannot have that same perfection [even if the personas number a in the millions]

Why did God decide to enter into time? God knows, it is His design…But God is outside of Time the Alpha and the Omega, the One Who Was, Who Is and Who Is To Come…The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit…One God…

I hope this helps you understand us…

 

[Nicro]

Thanks for your answers Nick. Im a little confused, however. Prophet(pbuh) was illiterate, correct? So he had others writing down everything he wanted recorded, but he never had anyone write down the “no-nonsense” version of what the Quran means? Are you certain he actually claim to be the interpreter of his own revelation, or is this simply assumed by you?
Where is the “final say” of what the “meaning” of the Quran is? It sounds to me very much like the situation which exists in Protestant Christianity with the doctrine of sola scriptura.

So how do I know you are providing us with the true Islam?
How do you know you have been presented the true meaning of Islam?

Ok so Al Quran doesnt really even need to be interpreted. It is pretty plain and simple. But, if someone did not understand a certain verse or something they would ask him to explain. This is shown through Hadiths and such. And nowadays you still dont need a whole lot of “interpretation” as it is easy to get it. But if you dont understand something then you ask a sheik or scholar because they study this extensively.

 

[ralphinal]

Ralphinal, you raise some good points, and I don’t have the answers to those questions. “Am I my brother’s keeper?” and "Who is my brother? – basically. Some Islamic people feel our excesses and free-and-easy way of life are evil, so they feel justified in committing “911” type atrocities. As we condemn actions like that, we also should condemn the desire in ourselves to run around the world feeling superior and enlightened and that we need to impose our beliefs on everybody no matter where they’re coming from.

I think we should hold our heads up and do what we know is right and allow others to follow their own consciences – I guess. Heaven knows I don’t have the answers.
Respectfully, Alisa

I agree again, but when another’s conscience causes the death of others, we should say something

 

[Alisa]

That if another’s conscience kills somebody we should say something – yes, I guess. But death…what about the deaths we are causing in the Middle East? What’s justified and what is not? (not to get off-topic here).

 

[ralphinal]

Not to get off the subject, but there are two differences. First, people are trying to do something to change it. Loudly and visibly and it is having an effect. Secondly, we are not doingthis in the name of our God.

 

[Alisa]

Well, I’m not sure we’re not “doing this in the name of our God”. I’ve heard an awful lot about Democracy being inseparable from Christianity, etc., etc. In a subtle kind of way, I think there is the attitude that we need to impose our beliefs, our way of life, and our political system in places possibly not suitable for these kinds of things at the present time, if ever.
Alisa

 

[mark_a]

The reason this is happening today is that people figured out they could manage to control there people in any way they wish and say that it is for Islam.

Which country or society or group would you single out as a good example of Islam?

 

[ralphinal]

Well, I’m not sure we’re not “doing this in the name of our God”. I’ve heard an awful lot about Democracy being inseparable from Christianity, etc., etc. In a subtle kind of way, I think there is the attitude that we need to impose our beliefs, our way of life, and our political system in places possibly not suitable for these kinds of things at the present time, if ever.
Alisa

In America, we’ve held the belief that God put us here in a democracy for a reason. That is one reason you hear it. It was a part of Manifest Destiny, which had its own problems. Now, if you are saying that Islam in its current form and democracies are not a good fit, that is its own issue. From a politcal science view, democracies are superior to all governments. The world has not borne that out, however, as democracies are overthrown all the time all over the place. But please do not tell me that most Muslims are want free practice of religion when I do not see ANY proof of that form a non-secular Muslim government. It is like telling me that either political party in America cares about the average, middle class American. Looks true on paper, but not born out in practice.

 

[meedo]

Not to get off the subject, but there are two differences. First, people are trying to do something to change it. Loudly and visibly and it is having an effect. Secondly, we are not doingthis in the name of our God.

hello

1- We muslims ARE trying our best to do everything we can to stop Terrorist acts . Let me tell you that All governments in teh islamic world are sharing intelligence with the west on terrorism and it help saves many lives .

you say that the US os doing somthing Loudly and visibly and it is having an effect.?!!

let me give you a very recent example. Somalia!!

Somalia finally had peace when the Militias of teh islamic courts ruled there. there were no warlords. people would walk safely in teh streets, no robberies or gangs allowed . No Inter-tribal warefare. Finally peace for a civil war Torn country!!!

Guess whart!!! The US didnt like it and put a NON democratic regime theer!!! made Ethiopa INVADE Somalia and helped it do that !!! ’

Now the killing s and death in Somalia is unimaginable !!!

Who breeds terrorism?! who breeds death and instability?!

Dont believe me ? read for yourself!!!
Somalia: Better Off under Islamic Courts?
blog.wired.com/defense/2007/09/somalia-better-.html

''A prevailing sense of peace and security felt in many parts of the once lawless Somalia since the rise of the Supreme Islamic Council of Somalia (SICS) is increasingly attracting foreign investors back to the Horn of African country. … [F]oreign investors are able to move in the Mogadishu streets without the help of gunmen. The SICS has also re-opened Mogadishu’s port and airport, where a “Let us build Somalia together” sign hangs high. Both had been closed for over a decade. Since the SICS started issuing visas, flights to and from Kenya and Dubai have been full of curious investors and returning refugees.
‘’

2- You say that the killing christians do is not in the name of their God?

Well actuaölöy all the problems of the Middle east are political. the religious part opf it comes as a backing to the political part.

The Militia of the islami´c courts didnt fight the government forces because theye were non muslims. They fought them because they were corrupt and dictators !!! There ios nothing wrong to do that with the backing iof God in your mind . There si nothing wrong to do that and invoking the help of God in yoru struggle for justice!!

This is what i always note: people in teh west dont give any regards to ‘’ what causes terrorism’’ . Western governments dont care about anything except to enforce what they want and the chaeos that results are the responsibility of the ''muslims ‘’ to deal with!!

and if things gets too much and starts boiling it is always blamed on the ‘‘irrational’’ muslims.

This is big injustice and its a shame that uptill now the western world have not learned the lessons

peace
Peace

 

[meedo]

Which country or society or group would you single out as a good example of Islam?

Turkey is booming and vibrant under an islamic government. economy is better, they are popular ‘‘because’’ they are islamic and people love them because they are not corrupt.

Malasya achieved its economic success under the very pro islamic Mahateer muhammed .

 

[Alisa]

Ralphinal, I’m saying nothing beyond, nor more complicated than my message a day or two ago, roughly: If we Americans are happy with Democracy, that’s wonderful But I’m not so sure it is moral of us to behave as we have – trying to impose our ways on people with other forms of government or other forms of religion. If we are happy with what we have, fine – let’s live our Democracy and/or Christianity in the highest way possible. And as for Muslims not wanting free speech or freedom of religion – even if that were true, which I doubt – my responsibility is to live my life according to my own beliefs.

And since this thread is entitled “A decent talk,” I believe I said earlier that I haven’t really known American Muslims but would like to. I honestly think there are some Christians who believe they are “less American” for being Muslims; there’s a kind of suspicion that their sympathies are elsewhere rather than with their country – The United States.

Anyway – for what it’s worth, that is my opinion this chilly morning!
Alisa

 

[ralphinal]

Ralphinal, I’m saying nothing beyond, nor more complicated than my message a day or two ago, roughly: If we Americans are happy with Democracy, that’s wonderful But I’m not so sure it is moral of us to behave as we have – trying to impose our ways on people with other forms of government or other forms of religion. If we are happy with what we have, fine – let’s live our Democracy and/or Christianity in the highest way possible. And as for Muslims not wanting free speech or freedom of religion – even if that were true, which I doubt – my responsibility is to live my life according to my own beliefs.

And since this thread is entitled “A decent talk,” I believe I said earlier that I haven’t really known American Muslims but would like to. I honestly think there are some Christians who believe they are “less American” for being Muslims; there’s a kind of suspicion that their sympathies are elsewhere rather than with their country – The United States.

Anyway – for what it’s worth, that is my opinion this chilly morning!
Alisa

Ironic that you say that, as there was a time that many Americans used to think that Catholics were lesser Americans and had split sympathies.

To the posters that pointed out other causes for terrorism, I see the point and I do not entirely disagree. My point is again that please do not tell me that Islam teaches true freedom of worship when it is not supported in the Muslim governments.

 

[Alisa]

Ralphinal –

I am old enough to remember the time when Catholics were viewed with suspicion! I like the fact that in this country we are capable of social growth. But doesn’t it seems there always is at least one group which is ostracized and made a scapegoat for our fears and frustrations?

I’m sure Muslims do believe what they say about Muslim countries, and that there is a certain amount of truth to what they say.

Have a great day.

 

[Vintagecoils]

I do have some comments. My brother converted to Islam long ago. He has since drifted from it but he was trying to convert me.

Some of the publications were strongly teaching that Christians were wrong in their whole understanding of God.

They stated that the Apostles altered the teachings of “Jesus” the prophet and mis led the people. That they fabricated the idea that he was God.

It taught that is why “AllaH” had to reveal the “truth” to Mohammed so that it could be corrected.

With that I then have to conclude that God the Father of the Christian faith can not be the "same " as Allah because then one is lying(not meaning to insult) to someone or I am following a delusion.

That the Jesus of Islam is not the same as Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ because according to Islam I am following the wrong teachings. So logically, that would mean I am following and worshiping and praying to a false God incarnate. Also he would either have been a lunitic or a lier if the Apostles are telling the truth of what he told them. However, nothing taught by Islam comes close to what has been taught from the prophesis of the old Testament or the Holy Apostles reference My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ or God the Father.

I see no meeting half way on this. I have one earthly father. There can be no saying I have two different biological fathers and something be agreed on.

This is why I can not understand us to be worshipping the same.  God.  or referring to the same Jesus.

When St. Patrick and St. Paul preached to the Celts and the Galations it was different.  They recognized that it  was the same God they were worshipping just not in full understanding of the truth.

I understand that Muhammed was fully educated in the Christian and Hebrew teachngs. So his conclusion or visions are in direct contridiction and basically label Christianity as false teachings. Is this not why the muslims felt the need to take islam into the Christian world?

 

[Nicro]

Ironic that you say that, as there was a time that many Americans used to think that Catholics were lesser Americans and had split sympathies.

To the posters that pointed out other causes for terrorism, I see the point and I do not entirely disagree. My point is again that please do not tell me that Islam teaches true freedom of worship when it is not supported in the Muslim governments.

You cant say that because the government is ruled by one corrupt man who is to busy shaking hands with his western allies to care about Islam that he is enforcing actual shariah law.

 

[ralphinal]

You cant say that because the government is ruled by one corrupt man who is to busy shaking hands with his western allies to care about Islam that he is enforcing actual shariah law.

Then get rid of him. I know that it is easy to say on the internet, but history is filled with people getting fed up with corrupt rulers adn overthrowing them. Another poster on another thread has pointed out the selective enforcement of shariah law, which is not covered well in the United States.

Is revolution against an unjust or immoral government allowed in Islam?

 

[po18guy]

Hi everyone! I’m Nick

    I think this forum could use a decent talk about Islam. Please lets keep this decent and open and not cover our ears and yell. Who has a question to ask or a statement?

Assalamu Alaykum!

Something that has come up is the high opinion Muhammad held of Mary. Combine with this the apparitions of Mary in Fatima, Portugal. The city was named for Muhammad’s favorite daughter. Since Mary always leads to Christ, her apparition in Fatima holds special import for Muslims. There is a Brit who did some vids on YouTube regarding this fact. I will try to locate the links.