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irisheyes66
Guest
If you really followed this saying, you wouldn’t hold hands.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
But community doesn’t begin and end at Holy Communion. Either way, the Church has not made a decision to stop the action of those who desire to express unity and friendship, during the Lord’s prayer.You sound like you’re on our side.
But you are precisely correct. Our communion is in the reception of the Holy Communion, not the Lord’s Prayer.
I can go either way on this issue. What the congregation choses, is what I’ll go with.
In my parish, there are only a couple people who refuse to hold hands. However, they refuse any form of friendship, inside or outside of church.
Jim
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DJgang
Guest
If you go along with the concept that the “OUR Father” is not the “MY Father”…
Well, I suppose we should hold hands the entire Mass.
“Lord, hear OUR prayer”
“Lord, have mercy on US”
“WE believe”
on and on and on…
Well, I suppose we should hold hands the entire Mass.
“Lord, hear OUR prayer”
“Lord, have mercy on US”
“WE believe”
on and on and on…
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Miserissima
Guest
Good point, but that would indicate that the hand-holding would be only be an recently instituted cultural norm, especially if it were spread to the Credo. How many more romantic languages say “We believe” as opposed to “I belive?” I don’t know. Many? A few?
But I do know that throughout the Balkans, Hungary and Germany and Ireland, there was no hand-holding when I attended NO Masses.
The most discouraging, disheartening thing I see in this issue is that some of these newfangled cultural norms actually separate us from our Catholic bretheren (as in universal, global Church), such as ‘approved’ Liturgical Dancing in Africa. (That’s an example, not a threadjack, ok?)
As far as the Credo argument, our poor English translation of “We” separates us from the universal Church. Our hand holding is not what our European bretheran do (that I have seen).
We have become “little communities” within our parishes, and perhaps that’s why the Latin Mass was so good at keeping it all together - one language no matter where you go, one set of rubrics that seemed much clearer than I understand now, one sense of humility, one catholic peoples that span across the globe - not divided by nation, or indults, or these petty cultural norms. “If the rubrics don’t say that I cant do it, then that means I can!” is a poor, lack-of-humility attitude, and does not respect not only the authority of the church, but your pew neighbor who does NOT want to hold your hand!
Public/private devotion in the vernacular, I can understand. But I see how Mass conducted in the US is being divided up amongst charismatics, TLM supporters, unintentional or defiant liturgical abuses, all the way down to hand-holding during the Our Father.
I understand the strong principle of arguments for both camps, but doesn’t it seem a bit petty in spite of larger issues that have seemingly undermined the solidarity of the Church Triumphant and Universal?
Or is this the perfect example of how far the American Church is separated from the Universal Church?
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THurifer2
Guest
No not everyone…is saying WE believe it is not said in the Extraordinary Form of Mass…
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irisheyes66
Guest
You see, it’s comments like this that make this a hot topic issue. You’re implying that those that don’t hold hands are not friendly. You see, your presence at Mass is not about “you” or friendship. We are there for one reason and it has nothing to do with you or friendship.
I’ll tell you what, I’ll continue to follow the Popes’ example, you continue to follow some tradition made up by laypersons. Just don’t assume that non-hand holders are not friendly.
When I say the Lords Prayer, my eyes are closed and I’m in deep meditation absorbed in the real presence of Jesus Christ. I’ve got no time to be worried if the guy next to me has his feelings hurt because I’ve broken the hand holding chain.
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idrum677
Guest
I can’t stand what I call “church aerobics” that some people do.
It seems like they have a gesture for every prayer and response. It it distracting and actually looks pretty foolish.
It seems like they have a gesture for every prayer and response. It it distracting and actually looks pretty foolish.
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PaixGioiaAmor
Guest
And this is exactly what the mass is NOT about.
I’m not advocating holding hands; It’s not an approved gesture that is called for, and there is no reason for it.
But this whole mindset that says “I’m not there for community” is wrong. Read the liturgy documents again. Read commentary on them.
Mass is about communal worship of God. It’s not either/or. It’s both/and.
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GemmaRose
Guest
Amen!
:clapping:That is exactly my point. As I said earlier, I’m neutral on hand-holding. If no around me does it, that doesn’t bother me. If someone reaches for my hand, I give it. I certainly am not going to yank my hand away or glare at anyone.
Mass is the community worshipping God together. Period.
*“I wish that my heart could beat, that I could live and breathe only for Jesus, I wish that my tongue could utter no other name than that of Jesus; that my eye could see only Jesus; that my pen could write only about Jesus, and that my thoughts could soar to nothing but Jesus. I have often wondered where on earth there might be something on which I could center my love. But neither on earth nor in heaven do I find any such thing but only my beloved Jesus… I am the fruit of your passion, Jesus, born of your wounds. O Jesus, seek me in love; I no longer possess anything; you have stolen my heart…” *- St. Gemma Galgani
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Quarles47
Guest
:clapping:
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djrakowski
Guest
I, too, am a former Protestant, but my experience is nearly the opposite of yours. The first time I attended Mass at my parish, I was incredibly thankful to God that I wasn’t forced into social situations that made me uncomfortable. I was able to ease into parish life at my own pace.I have to say I’ve had the opposite experience of most people here.
When I was still a protestant, I had been to a few Masses, but the first time I ever visited my current parish was also the first time I had ever experienced hand-holding during the Our Father. It moved me almost to tears. Suddenly I was in a place where worship and prayer wasn’t just an individualistic act; we were all praying to God together in one voice. Plus the orans posture is seen in some of the earliest Christian artwork. Beyond joining in prayer with my brothers and sisters in the pews, I feel like I’m joining in prayer with the early saints and martyrs
I don’t like the inappropriate level of intimacy hand-holding forces upon me. Our parish is rather large and I don’t know everyone in it, and the idea of holding hands with complete strangers is a bit off-putting, to say the least. I’m comfortable holding hands with my wife and children, and perhaps my nieces, but not with people I don’t know.
What’s funny, again, is that the exact opposite is the case at our parish. Very few people hold hands, and then almost never outside of their own families. And my wife and I have developed more serious friendships in 2.5 years at this parish than we did in nearly 10 years amongst glad-handing, love-bombing evangelicals.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
irisheyes
Have A Nice Day
Jim
No, just those particular people in my parish, who I happen to know and how they behave outside of Mass. They’re generally grumpy.
Its about Christ, friends(the community attending) and myself. Jesus gave us the gift of the Eucharist to us, to be shared in community. Its not just between yourself and God.
Fine, I never said you had to hold hands. I never said those who refuse to hold hands are not. I was speaking about a couple specific people in my parish, who I know. It wasn’t a general statement, sorry you took it that way. Also, I in fact said, that I go either way with it. I won’t offend or be offended over it. Its really too petty of an issue to get worked up over.
Great! When I say the Lords Prayer, my eyes are also closed and I’m meditating on the Father, who the prayer is directed to. I barely notice the hand I’m holding, other than when I feel love for the person, especially at the end, when we both give each other a gentle squeeze.
So from what I’m getting from you here, Jesus command, “love one another, as I have loved you,” is an antiquated notion, that shouldn’t be expressed at Mass?
Have A Nice Day
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
djrakowski
However, 23 years ago, I moved out into the country, and since then attend a little country parish of about 350 families. Everyone knows each other in town, as well as in the parish. Our little church can only hold about 150 people. They’ve held hands during the Lords Prayer, since I joined it. So, I hold hands as well. There are only a couple who refuse. The also refuse to exchange the sign of peace too.
Maybe they think this is how they’re suppose to behave, as a result of reading this forum ?
Jim
My former parish, which was a city parish of 5000 families, they did not hold hands and neither did I.
However, 23 years ago, I moved out into the country, and since then attend a little country parish of about 350 families. Everyone knows each other in town, as well as in the parish. Our little church can only hold about 150 people. They’ve held hands during the Lords Prayer, since I joined it. So, I hold hands as well. There are only a couple who refuse. The also refuse to exchange the sign of peace too.
Maybe they think this is how they’re suppose to behave, as a result of reading this forum ?
Jim
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irisheyes66
Guest
Nope, what you are getting from me is that when I am in Mass, my energy, emotion and attention is focused on one being, Jesus Christ. Not on how Barb or Ralph are doing. Not hoping that everyone else notices how nice I am or how much I participate in the “community”.
It’s a petty issue to me, as well.
I think we differ on the focus of Mass. My focus is on Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. I have could have the same spiritual experience in a packed church or if I was the only one in the sanctuary.
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irisheyes66
Guest
Whoever gave you the impression that the same people that don’t agree on holding hands during the Lords Prayer also don’t agree with exchanging the sign of the peace.djrakowski
My former parish, which was a city parish of 5000 families, they did not hold hands and neither did I.
However, 23 years ago, I moved out into the country, and since then attend a little country parish of about 350 families. Everyone knows each other in town, as well as in the parish. Our little church can only hold about 150 people. They’ve held hands during the Lords Prayer, since I joined it. So, I hold hands as well. There are only a couple who refuse. The also refuse to exchange the sign of peace too.
Maybe they think this is how they’re suppose to behave, as a result of reading this forum ?
Jim
The sign of the peace IS the time when we come together as a community. Of course, it’s impact is minimized because we’ve all just gone through that fellowship during the Lords Prayer.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
irisheyes
Jim
Well the person’s themselves.
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
irisheyes
My focus is also on Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior, but I’m just doing what He would do, when a person reaches out their hand.
Jim
If you don’t see Christ in others, you won’t know Christ.
[Edited by Moderator]
You making an awful lot of fuss about it.
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My focus is also on Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior, but I’m just doing what He would do, when a person reaches out their hand.
Jim
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irisheyes66
Guest
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irisheyes66
Guest
Jim, I sincerely extend my hand to you in a gesture of good will. I mean no harm by this discussion. And really, that’s all it is. Not an argument but a discussion.
Sorry if I’ve offended you.
Sorry if I’ve offended you.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
I was not offended by you, nor did I intend to offend you, my apologies if I did.Jim, I sincerely extend my hand to you in a gesture of good will. I mean no harm by this discussion. And really, that’s all it is. Not an argument but a discussion.
Sorry if I’ve offended you.
I enjoy friendly banter, even with people who I know are wrong.
Jim
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