A different hand-holding tale

[irisheyes66]

I enjoy friendly banter, even with people who I know are wrong.

I think you’ve just admitted that you talk to yourself!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I think you’ve just admitted that you talk to yourself!

Touche!

Jim

 

[GemmaRose]

(Jim & irisheyes66)

I’d like to add something to my prior posts which I realize have been rather anti-non-hand-holders.

It goes both ways - While I think it’s wrong to refuse to take someone’s hand who offers it, it’s also wrong to try and push your hand on someone who obviously doesn’t want to take it.

My opinion is to “go with the flow” and there shouldn’t be any hurt feelings or hard feelings. If someone offers their hand, take it - if you really don’t want to: offer it up! Ditto the other side of the coin - if you offer your hand and the person next to you obviously doesn’t want to, don’t force your hand and if your feelings are hurt or bothered, offer it up!

Blessed Easter to all.

---

*“I wish that my heart could beat, that I could live and breathe only for Jesus, I wish that my tongue could utter no other name than that of Jesus; that my eye could see only Jesus; that my pen could write only about Jesus, and that my thoughts could soar to nothing but Jesus. I have often wondered where on earth there might be something on which I could center my love. But neither on earth nor in heaven do I find any such thing but only my beloved Jesus… I am the fruit of your passion, Jesus, born of your wounds. O Jesus, seek me in love; I no longer possess anything; you have stolen my heart…” *- St. Gemma Galgani

 

[Miserissima]

Please forgive me if I take anything posts out of context.

irisheyes
Well in the phrase, Holy Communion, “communion” comes from community. In fact, receiving Holy Communion is what unites us as a community."

Think of tradition and Tradtition. tradition (with a small “t” is cultural, from norms in local parishes. But the Tradition we have seen from other counties and which as stood throughout time doesn’t incorporate this culural norm.

Mass is about communal worship of God. It’s not either/or. It’s both/and.

AMEN! And there are times to worship outside of Mass and there are time one (or a group) can come together outside of Mass and do this. To me, the Mass ain’t the place. You wanna hold hands with a nighbor you know? You wanna with your family? Great. You wanna with me? Hahaha. It’s my fundamental right (as NOT found in the Rubrics) to say “No thanks.”

So from what I’m getting from you here, Jesus command, “love one another, as I have loved you,” is an antiquated notion, that shouldn’t be expressed at Mass?

Please don’t think I am picking and choosing scripture like or bretheren in other denominations, but when Paul wrote 1 Cor 14:40 “Let all things be done decently and in order ,” I underrstood that to be at formal worship, such as Mass.

D’oh! I understood that I already posed in post #44. I hope I was following the evolution of the thread and not repeating myself. Ppeae forgive me if I did.

 

[THurifer2]

Hand holding destroys community because it causes division in the church…JUST LOOK AT THIS THREAD…it wouldn’t exist if hand holding didn’t happen.

 

[GemmaRose]

Hand holding destroys community because it causes division in the church…JUST LOOK AT THIS THREAD…it wouldn’t exist if hand holding didn’t happen.

In a perfect world maybe there would be no hand holding (maybe there would ). In a perfect world, everyone would know the rubrics. In a perfect world, everyone would obey all the rules.

But this isn’t a perfect world, and so until it is a perfect world, the only thing which might lessen or eliminate division is a heaping dose of Christian charity: (as I said above) If someone reaches for your hand, in Christian charity, take it. If you reach for someone’s hand and they obviously don’t want to give it, in Christian charity, don’t force the person.

I would like to add a consideration for all those adamantly opposed to hand holding: We are sensate creatures, made that way by God, and as such, one of our greatest needs is the human touch. Children lavish in it. Many adults have spouses. But…

When you see that little old lady coming at you for your hand, she may be a widow of many years with children and grandchildren living many miles away. She may not have felt a human touch in a very long time. To her, the touch of your hand may be as though Jesus were holding her hand.

The jean-clad college age youth whom you might judge as not having a good understanding of the Mass might be a lonely and frightened teen living away from home for the first time. To him or her, holding your hand might bring comfort as would holding the hand of their mom or dad.

The male or female peer who seems to be no different from anyone else might be living alone, with no family at all, and dying of loneliness and/or depression. Your hand might literally be a lifeline.

All you might know now is that you don’t want to hold hands with anyone. But which would you rather hear at the Last Judgment?

*“When you held the hand of that little old lady, you brightened her whole day. She was missing her husband terribly that day.”

“That day when you held the hand of the jean-clad teen, you gave her a renewed courage to continue with her studies. She felt it was as though her dad said to her, ‘You can do it!’”

“When you held that man’s hand, you gave him renewed hope and conviction to go on with life.”

“Well done, good and faithful servant.”*

Would you rather hear:

*“When you pulled your hand away from that little old lady, she went home and cried all day. She just wanted some human touch, My touch.”

“When you refused to acknowledge that jean-clad student, he felt dejected, as though he were invisible and would always be. He dropped out of school shortly thereafter, feeling, ‘Why should I bother?’”

“When you deliberately avoided that man, it was the last straw for him. He went home after Mass and killed himself.”*

Sometimes even our very smallest actions have far greater consequences than we can possibly imagine, and will never know this side of heaven.

Just some considerations.

Blessed Easter to all.

---

*“I wish that my heart could beat, that I could live and breathe only for Jesus, I wish that my tongue could utter no other name than that of Jesus; that my eye could see only Jesus; that my pen could write only about Jesus, and that my thoughts could soar to nothing but Jesus. I have often wondered where on earth there might be something on which I could center my love. But neither on earth nor in heaven do I find any such thing but only my beloved Jesus… I am the fruit of your passion, Jesus, born of your wounds. O Jesus, seek me in love; I no longer possess anything; you have stolen my heart…” *- St. Gemma Galgani

 

[Miserissima]

Blessed Easter to you, too, Gemma Rose.

That…was inspiring.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

GemmaRose;

It goes both ways - While I think it’s wrong to refuse to take

someone’s hand who offers it, it’s also wrong to try and push your hand on someone who obviously doesn’t want to take it.

My opinion is to “go with the flow” and there shouldn’t be any hurt feelings or hard feelings.

This is what I’ve been saying all along.

Jim

 

[GemmaRose]

Hi everybody! I just found a poem online that gives us something to think about whenever and wherever we say the Our Father:

**You Don’t Say!

Don’t say “Father”
unless you behave like a son or daughter.

Don’t say “Our”
if you live isolated in your selfishness.

Don’t say “Who Art in Heaven”
if you are thinking only of worldly things.

Don’t say “Hallowed by Thy Name”
if you invoke God with your lips,
but your heart is far from Him.

Don’t say “Thy Kingdom come”
if you confuse the material and spiritual kingdom.

Don’t say “Thy Will be done”
if you don’t accept what is painful.

Don’t say “Give us this day our daily bread”
if you have no care for the people who are hungry.

Don’t say “Forgive us our trespasses”
if you have anger towards your brother.

Don’t say “Lead us not into temptation”
if you do not avoid the occasions of sin.

Don’t say “Deliver us from evil”
if you do not do something to combat evil.

Don’t say “Amen”
if you don’t take sincerely the words of the Our Father.**

Blessed Easter.

---

*“I wish that my heart could beat, that I could live and breathe only for Jesus, I wish that my tongue could utter no other name than that of Jesus; that my eye could see only Jesus; that my pen could write only about Jesus, and that my thoughts could soar to nothing but Jesus. I have often wondered where on earth there might be something on which I could center my love. But neither on earth nor in heaven do I find any such thing but only my beloved Jesus… I am the fruit of your passion, Jesus, born of your wounds. O Jesus, seek me in love; I no longer possess anything; you have stolen my heart…” *- St. Gemma Galgani

 

[Engineer1]

Look folks…I’m sorry, truly I am, if anyone gets their feelings hurt because someone won’t hold their hand, but emotion aside, hand holding is not in the rubrics of the Holy Mass, and catholicity…that is unity with the Universal Church…has priority over local unity within the parish or particular church.

We are not Protestants…that means our understanding of “church” is somewhat different and broader. By way of illustration, I have been away from home with my Protestant friends over a weekend. I find the nearest Catholic church and go to Holy Mass because my church is everywhere. Most often my Protestant friends can’t fathom why, their church is back home.

In the miltiary, we usually operate under the rule of “that which is not prohibited is authorized”, but the liturgy is the opposite because we must stay catholic (i.e. universal) in our worship. This means that we do not innovate, especially in the Holy Mass.

The rule of thumb for the liturgy is, “That which is not specifically authorized is prohibited”…in other words Read the Black and Do the Red.

Rome has ruled on the matter and said that hand-holding during the Paternoster (Our Father) during the Holy Mass is prohibited because it is not specifically called for in the rubrics.

See the link here:

zenit.org/article-8728?l=english

 

[crm114]

If it isn’t supposed to be done, then how should you go about stopping it?

Ostenatiously lick both your palms as you are standing up.

(This presumes that you were kneeling during the Canon.)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If it isn’t supposed to be done, then how should you go about stopping it?

Ostenatiously lick both your palms as you are standing up.

(This presumes that you were kneeling during the Canon.)

Or beging violently coughing into each hand. That should stop em!

Or, how bout, just look the person in the eye and tell them, that you don’t hold hands? I mean, if you really believe its wrong, you should have no problem standing up for what you believe, right?

Jim

 

[Jimsdun]

Actually, I could take it or leave it. I prefer not to, but if my neigbors insist on hand-holing I won’t refuse.

 

[sawman]

My experience at Easter Vigil reminded me of this thread.In our parish three years ago, almost no one held hands at the Our Father.I knew of one family that did it at the ten o’clock mass.Now almost the entire congregation not only holds hands but it now involves communal raising of hands at the end.What started as an imported fad has now become almost universal expression.Not once did our pastor ever aknowledge the activity.At the Vigil I looked up during the Our Father to see practically the entire congregation hands held and extended heavenward.I’ve stopped saying anything to my wife,because it would ruin her mass.She likes it I don’t.At least she doesn’t try to get my hand any more.Cheech!I refuse to compromise my sense of propriety towards God and the Blessed Sacrament.I can’t help other people’s feelings.The whole point of this is how something not allowed spreads when no correction takes place.Rather talking of people’s feelings what about obedience? I know it is a small matter,but isn’t that when obiedience is most challenging?

 

[VietCatholic83]

Yes, holding hands at the “Our Father” is a sign of unity, showing that the community of faith is asking as one body for His kingdom come. We worship together which is beautiful.
I don’t have a problem with holding hands, been doing it for years in our church and all the one’s I have ever attended. There is nothing right or wrong with holding hands, and one does not have to do it if they don’t want to.

I hear what you’re saying. However, hand holding has become the norm and ingrained in practice for many places and those who disagree with hand-holding are unfairly branded as uncharitable, holier-than-thou, traditionalists, etc. I personally do not enjoy the hand holding that takes place at my own parish. I just feel that it’s a little awkward and inappropriate for the reasons many have already mentioned in this thread. I have thought about simply making the decision to no longer hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer, ever to ignore my neighbor who I know will reach out for me. However I cannot overcome the inevitable perceptions of my “coldness” or self-righteousness. So, in the meantime, I will continue the practice as long as those near me reach out, if nothing else for Christian charity.

also, I notice that many do not or will not make a profound bow at the mention of the Incarnation in the Creed (as is indicated in the GIRM), or make the proper reverence before receiving Holy Communion (also in the GIRM). However they will automatically reach out hold the hands of the person next to them.

 

[Sheeniac]

Score! I once tried to sit as far away from anyone as I could…and a gentleman sauntered down through three long sets of pews to hold my hand during the Our Father.

I thought of the Desert Fathers who would say that this sacrefice (due to the sincere intent and effort of the gentleman) warrented at least offering it up at that moment.

I don’t hold hands, nor does my parish. I would make of an exception in this case as you did.

 

[Sheeniac]

Look folks…I’m sorry, truly I am, if anyone gets their feelings hurt because someone won’t hold their hand, but emotion aside, hand holding is not in the rubrics of the Holy Mass, and catholicity…that is unity with the Universal Church…has priority over local unity within the parish or particular church.

We are not Protestants…that means our understanding of “church” is somewhat different and broader.

I haven’t read through the thread fully, but I wanted to reply to your last sentence I quoted.

Our understanding of Church is truly different, I agree. What I am not seeing on this thread the notions of the Communion of Saints, of the Church Militant, the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant.

The Mass is NOT ours to diddle around with as we please. It belongs to St. Paul, St. Peter, St. Augustine, St. Pio, St. Theresa, St. Elizabeth Seton, and so forth. It belongs to my great great great grandparents and yours (assuming some are cradle Catholics on this thread).

The Pope and Bishops have the authority vested in them to change the rules, we don’t. If they wanted more ‘community communion’ (so to speak) in the Mass during the Our Father, they would add hand holding as an option. They certainly had no concerns about adding various other options to the Mass.

Does this Church inaction mean so little to those who add hand-holding? I’ll defer to the wisdom of the Church authorities, regardless of my personal approval of it.

 

[love4mary]

I must go against the tide on this one.

I Love the Hand Holding at the Our Father. We are a communal people and are called to worship God as His family-as His children. To me, holding hands is a sign of unity and oneness of family, a collective prayer as apposed to alot individuals (my impression)

I have heard and read all the objections to it, and for those who choose not to that is fine, but I have taught my children to hold hands as does the rest of parish for just the reasons I addressed.

I completely agree about hand upheld in the Onus position.

BTW, I have never been a protestant so do not know how they hold their hands during the Our Father.

 

[benedictgal]

I must go against the tide on this one.

I Love the Hand Holding at the Our Father. We are a communal people and are called to worship God as His family-as His children. To me, holding hands is a sign of unity and oneness of family, a collective prayer as apposed to alot individuals (my impression)

I have heard and read all the objections to it, and for those who choose not to that is fine, but I have taught my children to hold hands as does the rest of parish for just the reasons I addressed.

I completely agree about hand upheld in the Onus position.

BTW, I have never been a protestant so do not know how they hold their hands during the Our Father.

Obviously, we don’t worship in a vaccuum. At the Mass, we are in a community; however, the community does not end with the person in front of you, behind you and either side of you.

We are the Church Militant; but, we are not alone at the Mass. We are surrounded by the Church Triumphant, the saints who join us in prayer. The Church Suffering, those souls in Purgatory, join us in prayer, as well.

The deficiency with the hand-holding issue is that we tend to see it only in the horizontal, leaving out the vertical element of the prayer. We only concern ourselves with the warm, living bodies that are inside the building and ignore the deeper, spiritual and vertical aspect of the prayer. We forget that we are joined by the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering.

Furthermore, the focus shifts from praying to Our Father to linking hands with our neighbor and making that more important.

I agree with one of the posters who indicated that many people do not follow the rubrics, such as bowing at the mention of the Incarnation in the Creed and other parts that correspond to the faithful. But, for something that is not even in the rubrics, everyone grabs a hand during the Our Father. That is sad.

 

[love4mary]

I can understand and respect what you are saying benedictgal, but for me I feel a greater spiritual strength knowing my prayers are joined with those I am holding hands with , all of our prayers reaching the heights of heaven together.

I will continue to hold hands, but will also respect those who chose not to. Either way, God hears all our prayers offered to Him.

God Bless