A Diocese Smells the Coffee: Starts Planning for Decline of the Ordinary Form and Growth of the TLM

[CilladeRoma]

We have had the EF in my diocese since 1994-ish.
My former Bishop allowed it and we have had one ever since.

About 5 years ago, at the request of those who attend, they were allowed to use a parish that had been closed. We have 2 Masses at the parish, an EF and an OF that is done with chant, Latin, organ etc.

The attendance numbers have been steady or declining. The average attendance, between the 2 Masses is about 400 people. The Church seats close to 1000.

The priest in question at this parish is in his late-60’s. We do have some younger priests who also celebrate the EF, but attendance is never more than a couple hundred.

Our EF is pretty centrally located in the diocese, has plenty of parking and the EF Mass is at 11:00am on a Sunday. We are a diocese of about 300,000 people. I can’t see my Bishop bringing anyone else to say the EF when we don’t have a huge demand.

 

[choose_to_love]

Fair point and a reasonable decision. Still, it seems like he could quite easily have a placated/happy group of parishioners and at the same time more or less make it someone else’s immediate problem. Is there SSPX nearby? Maybe an order parish could draw from that to make it more sustainable.

 

[stpurl]

No, the statement made was not made as a ‘competition’, i.e., ‘see this is worse’. It was made as a simple statement of fact. Unfortunately in today’s climate one can no longer state facts as immediately people do tend to come down and say, “no, that’s not how it seems to ME”.

Unfortunately this is a situation where the vast majority of us, who ask only to attend and express our thankfulness for a valid rite of the church, whether OF, EF, Maronite, Melkite, etc. are perceived to be ‘competing’, either to claim that our preference is ‘best’ (meaning that others are somehow worse), or are trying to play the victim card, etc.

So many mind games, thought experiments, so much internalization and personalization exists today that I would never have dreamt of in my youth.

The thing with the EF and OF, however, is especially difficult because unlike things like preferring guitar or organ (and that can be ‘stirring’ enough, even when it’s totally secular, such as a person liking to hear Virgil Fox on the organ versus Carlos Santana on the guitar =both excellent, I may add), there was such a ‘break’ between the practice of the EF and the OF, and so much disinformation and misinformation carried out, often with great sincerity and belief in such things’ truth, often by perfectly wonderful people, that very many otherwise ‘normal’ Catholics have internalized a narrative regarding 'The EF" and “the OF” which cannot be breached by logic, reason, love, sympathy, or --yet–prayer.

A Catholic who has nothing but fond memories of the EF, is comfortable in more than one language, has a great supply of cultural practices and devotions through ethnicity, extended family, etc. is usually, especially one over age 50, going to be at least interested in the EF, even if they prefer the OF for reasons of comfortable familiarity, a liking for community, etc. Being part of a ‘group’ A does not preclude being part of a group B, or C, etc.

But a Catholic who perhaps has less than fond (or no memories) of the EF, who has been involved intimately in the OF, has had cherished family members speaking with loathing of ‘the veil’, ‘Latin’, ‘hateful people’, boredom, who often speaks only English in the US, doesn’t have a long cultural history of older more traditional devotions, and who above all has been told by people he respects and admires how ‘wrong’ all things were before Vatican 2 et al, who has been guided by reading authors who likewise denigrate the old and exalt the new (new, yet ‘in place’ for 50 years and so comfortably familiar as well), and who has either personally or ‘anecdotally’ experienced ‘hateful rhetoric’ from ‘nasty people’ with whom he then inextricably associates ‘EF" with–well, that person is going to be awfully hard to convince to even let a reference to "I like the EF’ go by without immediately jumping in to exclaim, “How can a reasonable thinking Catholic in this day and age even consider THAT when we have the wonder of the OF”. . . Yet somehow the EF person who comes on to ask, "But there are great things in the EF too’. . .THAT is the person who is sowing discord, is unreasonable, etc. etc.

 

[choose_to_love]

RE: don’t let criticism keep Bp. from offering EF. . . .

Of course you are correct on the merits in general, but apparently this community has a priest that offers the EF, so he was probably doing it as an accommodation or show of support.

 

[CilladeRoma]

about vestments, which way he turns, how his hands are positioned, and/or his Latin pronunciation (I’m guessing here, btw)

Yeah, pretty much.
The Bishop was new. The Bishop who allowed the EF in the first place, never, to my knowledge, celebrated the EF.
When we got our new Bishop after ours had to retire, he was much more conservative and celebrated the EF often in his other diocese. He was there in his capacity as the Ordinary of the diocese, so he concelebrated the OF, then was the celebrant of the EF.
The letter was not anonymous, nor charitable. If it were me, I would not have anything to do with the community either until this particular group adjusted their attitudes.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

In all charity, I think we need to remember that many priests and bishops are attacked for many reasons, not just from those wanting the EF. My bishop was horribly attacked several years back nationwide by progressives who thought he was acting too orthodox and it had nothing to do with the EF or OF.

We also lost a priest at a nearby parish who was very good due to so many complaints from parishioners on the way he said Mass.

 

[AlbMagno]

She never said that she wanted the EF to be rarer. She even said:

I appreciate the fact that the Church has given us 2 forms of Mass so that those who do appreciate the EF can have access to it.

You are making a straw man argument. And the worst it’s the people who like you in some kind of apologetic reaction.

 

[Elizabeth3]

When we got our new Bishop after ours had to retire, he was much more conservative and celebrated the EF often in his other diocese.

Did he have this problem with his other diocese? I’m reluctant to paint all who love the EF with the same brush. It seems there may be pockets of “trads,” for lack of a better term, that get sort of cultish with ideas about what is proper. I think most who attend the EF are more reasonable. They just don’t get as much notice because they aren’t as loud about it.

If it were me, I would not have anything to do with the community either until this particular group adjusted their attitudes.

But without open and honest dialog, I don’t think attitudes will be adjusted. Ignoring the problem is unlikely to do anything other than allow things to fester.

 

[CilladeRoma]

There is a smallish subset of the attendees who have this attitude. They came with the parish building and many have been, or their families have been, attached to the parish since it’s beginnings.
It is a tenuous situation, and this is just one anecdote of many that have occurred since the EF was allowed by our previous Bishop 25 years ago.
Dialog is a two-way street.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I’m reluctant to paint all who love the EF with the same brush. It seems there may be pockets of “trads,” for lack of a better term, that get sort of cultish with ideas about what is proper. I think most who attend the EF are more reasonable. They just don’t get as much notice because they aren’t as loud about it.

It would be great if these ones would speak out against the nasty extremists. It’s been one of the big failings of Catholicism ie hiding/defending the baddies so as not to harm our brand.

 

[stpurl]

I think that you need to read more closely both her posts, and mine. I never accused her of wanting the EF to be rarer, so I can’t imagine why you’re accusing me of making a strawman.

 

[stpurl]

Plenty of people–I’m one of them–have spoken out rather constantly, saying that extreme, harsh, judgmental behavior is certainly wrong–even if we have never indulged in that behavior or experienced it ourselves-- but apparently that isn’t sufficient?

What, exactly, would be considered sufficient speech against the ‘nasty extremists’?

And when, exactly, is the reciprocation?

I mean, nasty extremism is not limited to ‘trads’. Yet I don’t see calls from posters saying, “Hey, calling somebody ‘holier than thou’ and telling them that if they want to cover their heads they’re secretly vain and want to be looked at and applauded” is kind of judgmental. Just because it isn’t something that you (generic you, not you emeraldlady) want to do doesn’t mean that it’s wrong or bad.

No, I’m not ‘competing’. No, I’m not trying to excuse bad behavior by saying, "other people do bad things too.’ No. No. No.

I just want to know exactly what people who love the EF can say that will suffice to show that THEY aren’t ‘extreme’, that they can be permitted to speak out without being condemned.

Because I can tell you that simply saying, “I love the EF, and I love the OF too, I just prefer the EF because it suits the person I happen to me on a lot of levels” doesn’t seem to cut it, and I don’t know why, because saying the very same thing about the OF is accepted and approved. What’s the difference? Don’t tell me it’s because a handful of anecdotal trads are ‘extreme’, because honey, a lot more than a handful of ‘just plain Catholics’ are equally extreme, but if I tried to condemn the OF for those ‘extremists’ the way that people condemn the EF for ‘their’ extremists, right after I got banned I’d get dozens of threads condemning me for judgmentalism and hate speech.

Again I ask, what is the difference here? I just can’t see why one charge of ‘extremism’ leads to one group having to jump hoops to be seen as anything but hateful elitists, but extreme speech from another group is perfectly hunky dory.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

All I want is

1. a Mass available near me at a convenient time for me, with a priest present and Jesus in the Eucharist present, and I don’t care if it’s EF, OF, Latin, Polish, with organ music, with acoustic guitars, with electric guitars, with chant, silent, with the priest facing the people or the altar, or how anyone receives Communion as long as the Vatican has given the okay for the manner of receiving; and
2. Everybody to stop arguing about it.

 

[Peeps]

We have had the EF in my diocese since 1994-ish.
My former Bishop allowed it and we have had one ever since.

About 5 years ago, at the request of those who attend, they were allowed to use a parish that had been closed. We have 2 Masses at the parish, an EF and an OF that is done with chant, Latin, organ etc.

The attendance numbers have been steady or declining. The average attendance, between the 2 Masses is about 400 people. The Church seats close to 1000.

The priest in question at this parish is in his late-60’s. We do have some younger priests who also celebrate the EF, but attendance is never more than a couple hundred.

Our EF is pretty centrally located in the diocese, has plenty of parking and the EF Mass is at 11:00am on a Sunday. We are a diocese of about 300,000 people. I can’t see my Bishop bringing anyone else to say the EF when we don’t have a huge demand.

This is similar to my experience in my diocese. (CilladeRoma, do we know each other?!).

The EF Mass in our city has been around since the 1990s (Institute of Christ the King), fully approved by our bishop

Around 400 people attend (there are three Masses on weekend, and the 400 are divided among these 3 Masses).

In the ten years or so that I have been involved (fringe–mainly providing organ music, and I’m also friendly with several of the parishioners), there has been very little growth in the Latin Mass parish. At first i thought it was because of the priest (he seemed rather rude and unfriendly), but for the last few years, a handsome young priest has been in charge (again, Institute of Christ the King), and even though he is friendly, fun, and very knowledgeable, he hasn’t made a big difference in attracting more seekers.

Meanwhile many of the OF parishes, including mine, have several thousand who attend Mass every Sunday (and Saturday vigil), and many of these parishes have four or more Masses each weekend. Of course, to be fair, they don’t seem to be growing in numbers, either.

In fact, most of the Protestant churches in our city seem to be bleeding attendees, and several that were huge years ago are now closed down, or have merged with other churches in their denomination.

As for the youth, they really aren’t going to the Latin Mass parish at all, even though the young man in charge of the music is also in charge of a local youth choir and very personable. There are young families who attend, but there are even more young families who attend the OF parishes, including many young families with more than four children.

I don’t get it. Is it just our part of the U.S.? That’s kind of what i think. We are geographically very close to Willowcreek, and this megachurch has had a lot of influence on worship preferences in the Northern Illinois, Southern Wisconsin, and even Western Indiana and Southern Michigan areas.

Now that being said, I’m not aware of any overt disapproval of the Latin Mass, although I know a few older folks who are adamant that they would never want to return to the “old days” of Latin Mass. But most are fine with it, although they are not interested in attending.

 

[Jen95]

Well, if you’re in the Chicago area, (Barrington?), it seems like there are 8-10 Latin Masses around the area. How do you know what their attendance is at each location each weekend? Why do you think that it’s 400 total at just one parish?
http://www.latinmasstimes.com/Illinois

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I don’t get it. Is it just our part of the U.S.? That’s kind of what i think. We are geographically very close to Willowcreek, and this megachurch has had a lot of influence on worship preferences in the Northern Illinois, Southern Wisconsin, and even Western Indiana and Southern Michigan areas.

We have several megachurches near us, similar but not as large, as WillowCreek. They are pulling alot of Catholics out of our parishes.

I’m not aware of any overt disapproval of the Latin Mass, although I know a few older folks who are adamant that they would never want to return to the “old days” of Latin Mass. But most are fine with it, although they are not interested in attending.

We have many old and young who are praying for a Latin Mass to move to our area.

 

[Jen95]

All I want is

1. a Mass available near me at a convenient time for me…
   …
2. Everybody to stop arguing about it.

You might be on the wrong internet forum, then!
Or you might at least not choose threads which you don’t have any interest in. Or kindly refrain from telling us how you don’t care about our discussion, which you presumably clicked on voluntarily?

 

[CTBcin]

The Catholic Church is not in too good a shape 50 years on from Vatican II.

Where would the Church be today without Vatican II and the reforms of the Mass? Would Mass attendance and the number of faithful Catholics be higher? Would it be lower? Would it be the same as it currently is? Who knows?

Correlation doesn’t necessarily equal causation. That’s why I don’t agree with the assumption that Vatican II and the Novus Ordo is the root cause for the decline of the Church.

 

[CTBcin]

You might be on the wrong internet forum, then!
Or you might at least not choose threads which you don’t have any interest in. Or kindly refrain from telling us how you don’t care about our discussion, which you presumably clicked on voluntarily?

@Tis_Bearself has a point. Some people are just tired of the constant bickering over liturgy. And that’s a valid point worth mentioning.

While I like the traditional Mass and beautiful liturgies, threads like this can get tiring for me as well.

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

I have noticed an significant increase of people - young people attending TLM. It has gone from a half full a Mass to a full to the seams. So there has been a change especially over the last year or so.