A Diocese Smells the Coffee: Starts Planning for Decline of the Ordinary Form and Growth of the TLM

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I like a what of this priest has said on many issues, but on this, I see his bias affecting his judgment. The single, most important word in this article is “a”. Time will see if this single incident in the world is just one more “a” or not. Is if coffee, or wishful thinking?
 
You wrote an entire message to her complaining how do you feel about the EF being hard to find, as if she was talking about restraining more the use of the EF.

In reality, she was talking about people attacking the OF.
 
ThomasMT said:
Without being accused of trying to draw attention to self? Without dirty looks? Without risk of being reproached for it by the priest himself? As if someone inclined towards such reverence and devotion does it purely for pretentious and sanctimonious reasons?? Perhaps in your diocese
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We receive at the rail whether kneeling or standing. Almost everyone kneels. No dirty looks. It’s an OF mass. Our diocese generally is experiencing a return to tradition. There are TLMs here, but most masses are OF masses. Our young priests are leading the way under the guidance of our not particularly young bishop who has a heart for tradition, but is compassionate about the need to usher in changes at a pace that does not leave large swaths of Catholics feeling like they have been attacked.
 
I have found that the threads I dislike seeing constantly, it’s best just to mute them. Trying to stop people from coming to CAF and talking about the liturgy or any topic one dislikes is a futile effort. It also seems like an effort to restrict people’s right to speak.
 
I know I enjoy threads about liturgy.
What I don’t like is when people start saying that one form is better. That another form has caused all the problems for the Church.
That EMHC and CITH are wrong, and that if I am not doing exactly what they do, I am a bad Catholic.
Preferences are fine. Elitist, holier than thou attitudes, which come out of the woodwork when the EF is the topic, are wrong.
 
I understand. We have to remember it works both ways though. I don’t like comments that say those who prefer the EF or are traditional Catholics are causing all the problems in the Church, or are not faithful to the Magisterium, or comments that imply that they think they are holier, or women who cover are prideful…on and on and on.
I know I am not going to stop people in the world from thinking and saying those things and there will always be new people coming here with the same comments, opinions and questions. I cant stop the questions or comments by telling them I’m tired of hearing it.

Perhaps we need just a little more charity and remember we are all Catholic, on our own spiritual journeys and we are all still working out our salvation and God is in control.
 
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You have completely misunderstood my message and what I said. I did not say that at all.
 
I agree, we need much more charity.
In real life, and on this forum though, it is hard when you hear, ad nauseum, that VII caused all these problem, that Pope Francis and other bishops are heretical, that teachings of the Church now are wrong (ecumenism, religious freedom, primacy of conscience) etc.
I don’t know anyone who wants to see the EF go away, require that everyone receive Communion standing and in their hand, hold hands during the Our Father, use the orans position, and have a rock band at every Mass.
Sadly, I know many on the more traditional side that would mandate their preferences for everyone.
That is the problem.
 
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CilladeRoma said:
Sadly, I know many on the more traditional side that would mandate their preferences for everyone.
That is the problem.
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I understand what you are saying. I guess what I am saying is to realize that the comments and attacks coming from the other direction are also part of the problem.

It takes two to argue.

There are always 3 sides to a disagreement. Yours, (not meaning you specifically) theirs and the truth.
 
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ThomasMT said:
Tell that to the exorcists who have witnessed its power first hand.
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Who am I to dispute the exorcists?

🤷‍♀️

I’m also sure Jesus and his disciples exorcised demons in Aramaic and not in Latin.

That also did the job.
 
It especially irritates me when the OF mass is always equated to clown masses. :roll_eyes:

I have met too many proponents of the EF mass that do this.
 
While I don’t doubt you have met some people who go too far (i.e. extremist), the majority of people who like the EF do not, have not, and will not equate the OF with clown masses.

If you will not judge a group by the actions of some of its members which the MAJORITY of the members don’t approve of, I won’t judge OF lovers by the many people who have made hugely disparaging comments about the EF. I won’t say, "OF people are hateful because I personally have heard LOADS of trashy comments, because I know that the majority of people who attend the OF would not make those comments and would disapprove of them.’

If it has to be said yet again, even though I know it’s been said many times, NO, people who like the EF do not think the OF is a clown Mass, an inferior Mass, or its adherents are libs or lazy or not really Catholic. NO. That is NOT what we think! And we reject those who say it, just as we would expect people to ‘reject’ calling the EF and its adherents elitist, holier-than-thou, etc.
 
In this very thread, by the person who started it, you already see an agenda when Vatican II gets blamed.
This is the kind of stuff I am talking about.
There is some overt “my way is better because this is how the Church has always done it” but most of it is subtle. The jab at VII, the eye roll at CITH, the whole chant is sublime and your St. Louis Jesuits are "happy-clappy, banal, tripe.
It is in almost every thread about liturgy.

Let’s take the orans position- I pray that way. I do not hold my hands up high like the priest does, but the are open, palm up and at my waist or sides.
I do not generally have my hands in the classic palm-to-palm, or golded prayer position. Based on the word of many so-called traditionalists, I want to mimic the priest, I had bad catechesis, I am a "liberal feminist who want to change the Church…"😲:roll_eyes:
Time and time again, my experience shows that one side is always trying to make their way the only way and blaming what the dont like for the downfall of the Church. The Church is a huge tent, we all do not have to practice the same way. It is not up to me to say we all have to practice the same way, and even the Church herself has said that the Bishop has great latitude in how things are done in his diocese. I am not sure why this is so difficult for some people. What worked for 15th century Europe in light of the Protestant reformation does not necessarily work in 21st century America, or Europe, or anywhere else. It can enhance understanding, it can enhance ones spirituality, but it cannot meet all the needs of all the people of this time.
 
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CilladeRoma said:
What I don’t like is when people start saying that one form is better. That another form has caused all the problems for the Church.
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I think this is why this particular article strikes a sour note with me. There is a basic logic error in assuming decline in Church attendance, in those areas it is declining, is due to the form being used, even though the change in liturgy occurred after the decline in attendance had started. The search for some exterior magic bullet, being it Latin, Mass form, music, etc., serves only as a distraction from the interior search of the only way to evangelize- becoming saints ourselves.
Sarcelle said:
It especially irritates me when the OF mass is always equated to clown masses. :roll_eyes:

I have met too many proponents of the EF mass that do this
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My own take on this is to disregard anyone who refers to clown Masses. They were such an aberration and rarity that such references indicate one who is unreliably immersed into the culture and groupthink of internet traditionalism.
 
Oh I see. I thought the response was to my comment that a diocese planning decades out must have a very young bishop. Because, of course, the next bishop may not be “smelling the coffee.”
 
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