A father and daughter at Mass

[OutinChgoburbs]

Full consent?
Knew it was a sin, and did it anyway?

If it was grave matter as well (there are degrees of lies- this one was obviously not making somebody feel good by lying about their appearance or hding somebody being sought by others to murder), that completes the three parts of a mortal sin.

It’s nobody’s business if a dad tells his daughter not to go to communion; even she pouts, folds her arms, rolls her eyes, stamps her foot, stomps and stares at the ceiling in the process.

 

[leonie]

Maybe she didn’t fast? I’ve told my kids not to receive communion when they broke the fast. Also, once I told my son who forgot to wash his hands that he should either receive on the tongue or not at all.

 

[lak611]

Is it really that harmful to tell them it is a mortal sin?
especially if doing so gets them to stop doing it and go to Confession?

Not unless YOU want to be the one who needs to confess lying!

 

[Karin]

Not unless YOU want to be the one who needs to confess lying!

well I guess we BOTH could confess the same sin then

Ok how about I tell him it is just a “sin” (no mortal or venial mentioned)…

 

[lak611]

Ok how about I tell him it is just a “sin” (no mortal or venial mentioned)…

Yes! That is fine. Then you could also explain how confession is good for venial sins too. It’s a Sacrament and we get grace from it, so confessing venial sins gives us grace to overcome them. And that way we don’t have them become habitual and maybe lead us into mortal sin.

 

[leonie]

This thread reminds me of the time I saw a mother and teenage daughter in line for confession. The daughter was in tears. She didn’t want to go every week for confession. She did end up going into the confessional, but she was very angry.

At the time, I thought the mom should have let the dau make her own decision about going into the confessional. Maybe the mom should have required her daughter to come with her to the Church, but given her the choice as to whether to go to confession. I wonder where the dau is in her faith journey now.

When do kids get to make these decisions for themselves?

 

[wjp984]

This was a really good thing that this father did for his daughter.

My brother has left the church and when we went to visit family for the Thanksgiving holliday I told him he better not dare receive communion. Then since I know the priest that was going to do the mass we were going to I talked to him and made sure he was aware that my brother has left the church and should not be given communion. My brother was of course angry about this but as a compromise I convinced him to go to confession and then I went as well. He may now once again be in a state of mortal sin and not want to be a part of the Catholic faith but at least for that holliday he was.

Also, when I was a teen and didn’t go to church as much my grandma found out that I missed Palm Sunday and when my family went to visit her for Easter, she prohibited me from receiving communiuon at the Easter Vigil. I only wish someone was there to do that more often for me now. I have too much anxiety to not go to communion when I shouldn’t. I don’t know how many times I have received unwworthily out of anxiety of being embarrassed of what others would think but it is quite a few.

 

[Holland]

I know what you are trying to do (teach your child that lying is a serious matter). And you are not telling the truth to do it. Don’t you see the disconnect?

I think part of the problem is that there seems to be a belief that Confession is only for mortal sins. This is not true. It is to repair our relationship with God (even when not mortally wounded) and gain the graces to overcome sin (venial and mortal). If a child tells lies, it can lead to more serious sins and they need the graces to overcome it. And in this context, you don’t have to lie to get them to Confession about their lying.

The real problem is people don’t have a clear picture of what a mortal sin is. Kids learn by example and if we can’t give an example of what a mortal sin might be then they will have a hard time figuring it out on their own. I think it would have been ok to say that the lie might be a mortal sin to get the child to think about it. I know it took me a very long time to understand what mortal sin is. I knew what constituted a mortal sin but I really didn’t understand it.

 

[FCEGM]

It’s good to see that this parent is doing what he should be doing in raising his daughter. What hasn’t been considered, though, from what I’ve seen discussed, is the possibility that there was no personal sin involved with the girl, but that perhaps her father realized that the time before she last ate and the time of Communion were too close for her to properly receive.

 

[Holland]

It’s good to see that this parent is doing what he should be doing in raising his daughter. What hasn’t been considered, though, from what I’ve seen discussed, is the possibility that there was no personal sin involved with the girl, but that perhaps her father realized that the time before she last ate and the time of Communion were too close for her to properly receive.

Yes, and when I posted the question it was from that point of view. I wanted to know the degree of involvement parents take in their children’s spiritual life. Even though the discussion went off into many different directions I did get my answer.

 

[Teakafrog]

I’ve done it before. We caught our son in a big one, and definitely had a discussions about it not being right to go to communion until he had gone to confession, which we of course took him to at the next available opportunity, but he did have to miss communion in the daily school mass until we got there. I think it is part of our responsibility as parents to teach our kids how important it is to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord worthily. I’d do it again, too.

 

[whatevergirl]

Full consent?
Knew it was a sin, and did it anyway?

if that was the case. sometimes, someone does things out of fear…ignorance…the religious director of my children’s ccd classes who is also a nun, said that ‘for one to commit a mortal sin, it’s not as easy as we think. three things need to be present, and if those three things are not ALL present, then it’s not considered a mortal sin.’ most likely, though, if the father told his daughter not to go up…he had a good reason. That’s interesting though.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

This thread reminds me of the time I saw a mother and teenage daughter in line for confession. The daughter was in tears. She didn’t want to go every week for confession. She did end up going into the confessional, but she was very angry.

At the time, I thought the mom should have let the dau make her own decision about going into the confessional. Maybe the mom should have required her daughter to come with her to the Church, but given her the choice as to whether to go to confession. I wonder where the dau is in her faith journey now.

When do kids get to make these decisions for themselves?

At the risk of debate, this is apples and oranges.

Why?

Nobody can know the other person’s need to go to confession, even if that person is a minor. It can be suggested, the minor can be taken to the church where confessions are being held for the opportunity, but nobody can make a person go. In fact, all those little “first reconciliation” certificates aren’t supposed to exist, because there should be no record of it. It’s that private.

However, if a parent knows their child will commit a sacrilege by receiving Communion (a known mortal sin) or isn’t following the rules about Holy Communion (broke the hour fast, dirty hands), then the parent has the duty to let the child know it’s not the right thing to do at this time.

I would guess if the child said, “But I did go to confession, so there” Dad would have to relent and let her go. Dad can’t run up on the altar and ask Father if it’s true, because Father couldn’t tell him.

Hence, nobody’s business, family matter, pretend you don’t hear it, look at the pretty windows if there are any, etc.

 

[TomS]

Perhaps no sin was committed at all on the daughter’s part. She may have broken the Eucharistic Fast or was otherwise not disposed to receive.

 

[leonie]

Perhaps no sin was committed at all on the daughter’s part. She may have broken the Eucharistic Fast or was otherwise not disposed to receive.

I have told my kids not to receive or to receive on the tongue if they forgot to wash their hands. For some reason, they’d rather not receive than receive on the tongue.

 

[Karin]

I have told my kids not to receive or to receive on the tongue if they forgot to wash their hands. For some reason, they’d rather not receive than receive on the tongue.

could it be because no one else is recieving on the tongue so they may be embarrsed for being/doing “differently” than what everyone else is doing?

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Maybe I am wrong about the mortal sin thing… you tell me:

Example:

Kid: May I do XYZ?

Mom: No. You may NOT do XYZ.

Kid: Please please please may I do XYZ? (Begs for several days, asks Dad - same answer No.)

Kid: Fine - I won’t.

Kid goes off and does XYZ when no one is home and thinks he won’t get caught. Mom finds out. Kid admits that he KNEW doing xyz was wrong but wanted to do it anyhow. Kid lied when he said he wouldn’t do xyz - fully intended to do it anyhow - just said he wouldn’t to shut mom up.

Mortal sin - yea or neigh?

Do I think the kid should be encouraged to confess that before the next Sunday? Yes.

Would I make certain that my teenage child spoke to a spiritual advisor (and possibly a psychological counselor) if he or she had apparently become a habitual liar? Yes.

If I found at that kid’s funeral the next week that something like that had been his or her last act–for instance, if the kid was killed in an accident while out at a party he was forbidden to attend and had attended anyway–would I think the kid risked hellfire for a single instance something like that? No.

I say this because we do not receive a full knowledge of the gravity of our sins from the first moment that we have knowledge that our sins do have gravity. While I think it appropriate for second graders to be able to confess their sins, I think it highly unusual that any second grader ever does anything with a knowledge full enough to endanger their immortal soul at that minute. Even high school kids do not fully appreciate what death and eternity mean. They think they will live forever, they think everything can be fixed. That in itself would usually preclude a full knowledge of mortal sin and a full consent to evil.

Nevertheless, the habit of sin and a malformation of conscience pose an eternal danger. For this reason, a child should not be taught that they cannot commit a mortal sin, nor should they be taught that they have no need to confess a sin that is mortal in gravity. We ought to teach, “when fully appreciated in gravity, this or that sin is mortal”, but that what is or isn’t mortal in a particular case is God’s alone to know, because of our inability to read hearts and assertain the other conditions for a mortal sin.

Besides, a kid who is not taught to live a life of virtue is being denied their greatest happiness and is being taught to be a threat to their own welfare and that of others. That their actions probably won’t send them straight to Hell doesn’t make them trivial in importance.

Is it really that harmful to tell them it is a mortal sin?
especially if doing so gets them to stop doing it and go to Confession?

If you lie to your child about your understanding of what sins are mortal or venial:
a) obviously you lie, which is itself a sin and a stain on your own soul. This is possibly a worse stain that the child’s own lie, since you are older and in a better position to know the gravity of your actions.
b) you substitute the weaker witness of talking for the stronger witness of doing
c) you damage your own credibility and authority in the right formation of the child’s conscience
d) you mar the formation of your child’s conscience by either encouraging them to be scrupulous (if they don’t find you out) or teaching them by example that the end justfies the means (if they do find you out).

While I don’t think this falls under the category of causing a little one to stray, to which an ocean swim with a millstone around one’s neck is preferable, it does tend in that direction.

Maybe she didn’t fast? I’ve told my kids not to receive communion when they broke the fast. Also, once I told my son who forgot to wash his hands that he should either receive on the tongue or not at all.

I am in the camp that says if a person is old enough to receive communion and avail themselves of confession, they are old enough to make the ultimate decision on their own.

That is not to say that there wouldn’t be consequences provided by yours truly if a child decided to violate the house rules, including house rules regarding religious observance. It does say that I would not presume to impose myself between another Christian and the sacraments. I think that authority is proper to priests. Even in that case, that pastoral authority it is usually imposed sparingly, in my experience.

Fools rush in, where angels fear to tread.
Very often, the same can be said of well-meaning parents.

 

[maryjk]

This thread reminds me of the time I saw a mother and teenage daughter in line for confession. The daughter was in tears. She didn’t want to go every week for confession. She did end up going into the confessional, but she was very angry.

At the time, I thought the mom should have let the dau make her own decision about going into the confessional. Maybe the mom should have required her daughter to come with her to the Church, but given her the choice as to whether to go to confession. I wonder where the dau is in her faith journey now.

When do kids get to make these decisions for themselves?

My opinion…My opinion…My opinion

Right when they make their first confession and their first Communion.

After that time, I feel, that we can remind them, teach them, and show by example. We can go to confession, take them to the church, talk about confession and talk about sin. But I don’t think that we can or should make them go to confession.

Confession is private. It is between God and me. No one knows but God and me, if my sins are mortal.

Just before Christmas, our parish had about 6 Priests in to hear confessions. There was a service, then private confessions. I went, my Mom went. We brought my son. But after praying, he didn’t go. It was up to him.

Now, I didn’t know of any sin that had been glaring. Nothing that I knew about, that he needed to confess. If I had known that, I would have reminded him of the incident. But again, it would have been up to him.

 

[Orionthehunter]

My opinion…My opinion…My opinion

Right when they make their first confession and their first Communion.

After that time, I feel, that we can remind them, teach them, and show by example. We can go to confession, take them to the church, talk about confession and talk about sin. But I don’t think that we can or should make them go to confession.

Confession is private. It is between God and me. No one knows but God and me, if my sins are mortal.

Just before Christmas, our parish had about 6 Priests in to hear confessions. There was a service, then private confessions. I went, my Mom went. We brought my son. But after praying, he didn’t go. It was up to him.

Now, I didn’t know of any sin that had been glaring. Nothing that I knew about, that he needed to confess. If I had known that, I would have reminded him of the incident. But again, it would have been up to him.

Mary, with all due respect, I’m always struck by the laissez faire approach of parents to matters of their children’s spirituality (which is their primary job) and then require them to take piano lessens, drive them all over town for athletic practices/games, assist them with their homework, etc. I am the guardian of my children until they are 18. This guardianship is legal, temporal, and spiritual as stewards for God.

As my children grow older I will defer to them additional obligations and personal authority. But I will quit reminding them of their spiritual obligations (and sometimes require them) when I’m done reminding them to do their homework, clean their room, do their chores, tell them to apologize to their mother, wake them up for school, tell them to change the oil in their cars and everything else that demonstrates that they are not quite able to make fully adult decisions.

With regards to attending Mass and going to Confession, I required it up until the day they went to college. And when they return on breaks, they attend Mass and we make our family trip to the communal penance service during Advent and Lent.

With regards to what I bolded up above, I hope you don’t have to still do the list of tasks that I have to do for my kids (underlined above). Otherwise, why do you think your kids can make better decisions over something as significant as Confession when you still have to remind them to do their homework?

 

[maryjk]

Mary, with all due respect, I’m always struck by the laissez faire approach of parents to matters of their children’s spirituality (which is their primary job) and then require them to take piano lessens, drive them all over town for athletic practices/games, assist them with their homework, etc. I am the guardian of my children until they are 18. This guardianship is legal, temporal, and spiritual as stewards for God.

As my children grow older I will defer to them additional obligations and personal authority. But I will quit reminding them of their spiritual obligations (and sometimes require them) when I’m done reminding them to do their homework, clean their room, do their chores, tell them to apologize to their mother, wake them up for school, tell them to change the oil in their cars and everything else that demonstrates that they are not quite able to make fully adult decisions.

With regards to attending Mass and going to Confession, I required it up until the day they went to college. And when they return on breaks, they attend Mass and we make our family trip to the communal penance service during Advent and Lent.

With regards to what I bolded up above, I hope you don’t have to still do the list of tasks that I have to do for my kids (underlined above). Otherwise, why do you think your kids can make better decisions over something as significant as Confession when you still have to remind them to do their homework?

Would it surprise you that I home school? Not a very laissez faire approach to my son’s spiritual upbringing. Or his education. I do more than remind him about his homework. I give it to him.

I am not saying that we shouldn’t tell our children that they should go to confession. I am saying that telling them to go and making them go are two different things. And I feel that making them go is wrong.

I picture myself standing over my son, telling him that he has to go to confession. Walking him into the church and again, standing over him while he walks into the confessional. At what point do I leave it up to him? Do I tell the priest what he did wrong? Do I ask my son if he confessed the right things? Do I dare ask the priest what my son said? We all know that the priest better not tell me. Nor should I ask. So, I’ve made my son go to confession. Now what? Did he confess what I told him to? How do I know?

What if instead I talk to my son about sin. About receiving Jesus in a state of grace. What if I take him to the church and go to confession myself, ask him why, if he tells me he doesn’t need to go? What if I remind him of things that he might have done? What if I make sure that he has the tools to make a good confession?

Isn’t that what raising your children is all about? Teaching them what is right and what is wrong?

If I felt that my son was not in a state of grace, I would let him know. I would talk to him about making a spiritual communion, since he couldn’t receive until after confession. But I would not “make” him go to confession.