A "few" will be saved?

[Jerry-Jet]

Put all the saints in history who say that “FEW” are saved and put them in one group–and then put all the saints that say a majority are saved and put them in another group.

I guarantee you that the group of saints that say that “Few” will be saved will be MUCH LARGER than the group of saints that say a majority will be saved.

The UNIVERSALIST crowd was built by modernists and St. Pius X has already taught us what to think of their credibility.

Read all the saints whose writings say they are in a constant battle with sin–who say that they feel like they are unworthy–who warn us to “Work out our salvation with fear and trembling”–put them in one group.

Take all the saints whose writings say that a majority of people are saved and that they aren’t even worried about going to heaven–put them in another group.

Once again I guarantee you that the gorup of saints that talks and writes about it being hard to get to Heaven will be larger!

Take the Doctors of the Church–ask them if it is easy to get to heaven–

tally up all of them and see how many say that getting to heaven is easy and that a MAJORITY of people will be there.

You simply WILL not see that thinking in a majority of the doctors of the Catholic Church.

Take the popes of the Catholic Church–read all their writings and tally how many thought it was easy to get to heaven versus those that taught that it was hard. Tally how many of them thought that a majority of people get to heaven!

Tally how many of them who thought that MANY outside the Catholic church would be saved–you won’t see many who make that claim–it isn’t impossible of course–but just because it is possible doen’t mean it is probable.

If MANY Catholics can indeed go to Hell–the same can happen to non Catholics.

Now if a majority of the saints don’t believe that a majority of people make it to Heaven–and a majority of the Doctors of the Church don’t believe that a majority pf people make it to Heaven–and a majority of the popes don’t believe that a majority of people make it to Heaven–then

cease with the nearly everybody is going to make it to Heaven warm and fuzzy modernistic universalism favored by the devil which has earned a certain cachet among the 21st century theological sophisticate side!

I don’t believe them! Why should I?

Jesus said “FEW” I believe Jesus! Shouldn’t everybody?!

If everyone believes that the number may indeed be “FEW” and lives their life accordingly–“working out their salvation with fear and trembling” as the bible says

won’t MORE be saved that way then by telling everybody it is EASY to make it to Heaven and don’t worry too much about it?

Don’t put the Lord your God to the test by PRESUMING on His mercy!

Fear the Lord and Trust in his Mercy and you may be saved.

Listen to the modern theological sophisticate side and don’t fear God and PRESUME in His Mercy and Put Him to the test…do you really want to do that? Would the devil want you to do something like that?

I say if you don’t believe St. Paul and you don’t work out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING your chances of NOT making it to heaven are great.

Don’t take chances–do as the Blessed Mother always says—REPENT–DO PENANCE–“Do whatever He tells you”!

 

[paul_c]

PaulC…

Yes, the Church teaches the Narrow Road to heaven. Even a single, unconfessed Mortal Sin will preclude our entry to the Kingdom.

But, how do we square that with Christ asking the Father to forgive his executioners ? The only thing I can see … is that since we are to imitate Christ, if we ask the Father, thru the Son, to forgive those who ignorantly harm us …then our prayers for them are answered as well !!!

In other words, PERHAPS, many otherwise mortal sinners, may receive mercy …via our prayers for them.

What else do u see as an explanation for Christ praying the Father for his executioners ?

Well, Jesus IS God. He has the ability to absolve sins which we do not. That faculty is reserved to priests, is it not?

In the end, salvation is a choice made by the individual. He/she can either choose to ask for God’s mercy through the sacraments and then stay in the state of grace through loving God and neighbor or be condemned. You can certainly pray for them to be given the grace to ask for forgiveness but you can’t force them to be saved if they don’t request it themselves

 

[juliamajor]

Salvation is not numbers game. How many will make it to heaven or not is rather silly arguement since God alone decides that. The loss of one sheep is enough to send the Good Shepherd looking.Saying a “few” will be saved just might reflect Jesus’ pain and concern that even one soul should be lost?!
Our first concern should be our own salvation, then the communities.But should we ever totally secure in our own salvation?

 

[brb3]

Well, Jesus IS God. He has the ability to absolve sins which we do not. That faculty is reserved to priests, is it not?

In the end, salvation is a choice made by the individual. He/she can either choose to ask for God’s mercy through the sacraments and then stay in the state of grace through loving God and neighbor or be condemned. You can certainly pray for them to be given the grace to ask for forgiveness but you can’t force them to be saved if they don’t request it themselves

Yes, but when we consider the Beatitudes, (the New Covenant law of Christ to us), and his teaching we turn other cheek, forgive another 70x7, even forgive those who hurt us …and then we hear Christ forgiving his executioners, ----- is that c/w a Lord who would deny us a stay in Purgatory to repent of an unconfessed careless swear word or lie ?

I really can’t say …can you ? Indeed, we have two descriptions in scriptures of Christ. One very liberal & infinitely forgiving, …and another telling us we will pay for EVERY idle word spoken, and saying ’ depart from me into eternal darkness… I never knew you’.

Is he talking in the first instance to the Saints … and in the second to the Aints ? How do we understand these two sides of Christ’s teaching ?

 

[paul_c]

Yes, but when we consider the Beatitudes, (the New Covenant law of Christ to us), and his teaching we turn other cheek, forgive another 70x7, even forgive those who hurt us …and then we hear Christ forgiving his executioners, ----- is that c/w a Lord who would deny us a stay in Purgatory to repent of an unconfessed careless swear word or lie ?

I really can’t say …can you ? Indeed, we have two descriptions in scriptures of Christ. One very liberal & infinitely forgiving, …and another telling us we will pay for EVERY idle word spoken, and saying ’ depart from me into eternal darkness… I never knew you’.

Is he talking in the first instance to the Saints … and in the second to the Aints ? How do we understand these two sides of Christ’s teaching ?

The teaching of the church on Purgatory is established doctrine. No matter what you wish, only those in the state of grace at death will be eligible for purgatory.

As for understanding mercy versus justice. God is merciful and will give us as many chances as we want up until the point of death. Once we have died, then our choice is set and justice applies. That is how the Catholic Church teaches us how to reconcile what you see at disparate, contradictory views of the teaching of Jesus.

 

[brb3]

The teaching of the church on Purgatory is established doctrine. No matter what you wish, only those in the state of grace at death will be eligible for purgatory.

As for understanding mercy versus justice. God is merciful and will give us as many chances as we want up until the point of death. Once we have died, then our choice is set and justice applies. That is how the Catholic Church teaches us how to reconcile what you see at disparate, contradictory views of the teaching of Jesus.

So, PaulC…

When you read scripture, and read of the Merciful Christ ---- asking the Father to forgive his executioners
You would answer, they were forgiven FOR THAT EVENT …per a dispensation of our Lord, but later, ever thereafter, they need answer for their subsequent lives / personal sins ?

 

[brb3]

Salvation is not numbers game. How many will make it to heaven or not is rather silly arguement since God alone decides that. The loss of one sheep is enough to send the Good Shepherd looking.Saying a “few” will be saved just might reflect Jesus’ pain and concern that even one soul should be lost?!
Our first concern should be our own salvation, then the comm the SALVATION unities.But should we ever totally secure in our own salvation?

Perhaps Christ is teaching we should STAY IN HIS FLOCK …AT ALL TIMES, safe and secure, …and not wander off the SALVATION RESERVATION He provides us. As long as we remain IN CHRISTOS… we are kept safe and secure, SALVATION ASSURED.

Just like Mary & Apostles did, excepting Judas …who wandered off.

 

[juliamajor]

Perhaps Christ is teaching we should STAY IN HIS FLOCK …AT ALL TIMES, safe and secure, …and not wander off the SALVATION RESERVATION He provides us. As long as we remain IN CHRISTOS… we are kept safe and secure, SALVATION ASSURED.

Just like Mary & Apostles did, excepting Judas …who wandered off.

The problem with thinking our salvation is assured is that human nature can justify any action that it does. Tis dangerous - we gotta Work On our salvation "with fear and trembling " we should never be so confident that we have it “in the bag”. When I get too self assured about my own righteousness, that is when I fall right on my face and sin.

 

[brb3]

The problem with thinking our salvation is assured is that human nature can justify any action that it does. Tis dangerous - we gotta Work On our salvation "with fear and trembling " we should never be so confident that we have it “in the bag”. When I get too self assured about my own righteousness, that is when I fall right on my face and sin.

Yes, but even the most righteous Christian sins 7x daily…so, our ONLY RECOURSE is to make full confession DAILY. Never let the sun set on a day w/o saying evening prayers/ confession.

 

[paul_c]

So, PaulC…

When you read scripture, and read of the Merciful Christ ---- asking the Father to forgive his executioners
You would answer, they were forgiven FOR THAT EVENT …per a dispensation of our Lord, but later, ever thereafter, they need answer for their subsequent lives / personal sins ?

Of course. Got does not give us dispensation to sin, he forgives prior sins if we promise to try to avoid them in the future. In other words, in His mercy, He gives us a fresh start if we ask for it. But He does NOT say, all your future sins will be forgiven. That would be tantamount to saying sin doesn’t matter, when we know that the wages of sin is death.

 

[paul_c]

Yes, but even the most righteous Christian sins 7x daily…so, our ONLY RECOURSE is to make full confession DAILY. Never let the sun set on a day w/o saying evening prayers/ confession.

Your recommendation of a daily examination of conscience is a good and productive exercise for everyone. However, we do not need to accept the expectation that even the righteous sin 7 times a day. Our goal should be to not sin at all because it is offensive to God and I believe that it is possible to align our wills so completely with that of God through the graces available in the sacraments, that we lose the tendency to sin. If this was not true, then no one could go directly to heaven. This is not to say that I have reached this level (I clearly haven’t) but it is dangerous to accept the point that sin is inevitable.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

What is the use of knowing whether few or many are saved? Saint Peter says to us, “Strive by good works to make your election sure.” When Saint Thomas Aquinas’s sister asked him what she must do to go to heaven, he said, “You will be saved if you want to be.” I say the same thing to you, and here is proof of my declaration. No one is damned unless he commits mortal sin: that is of faith. And no one commits mortal sin unless he wants to: that is an undeniable theological proposition. Therefore, no one goes to hell unless he wants to; the consequence is obvious. Does that not suffice to comfort you? Weep over past sins, make a good confession, sin no more in the future, and you will all be saved. Why torment yourself so? For it is certain that you have to commit mortal sin to go to hell, and that to commit mortal sin you must want to, and that consequently no one goes to hell unless he wants to. That is not just an opinion, it is an undeniable and very comforting truth; may God give you to understand it, and may He bless you. Amen.

–St. Leonard of Port Maurice

 

[Sirach2]

–St. Leonard of Port Maurice

I was so delighted to read this. It certainly puts to death the legendary story attributed to him that only 5 out of 30,000 will be saved.

.

 

[Pete_Holter]

I was so delighted to read this. It certainly puts to death the legendary story attributed to him that only 5 out of 30,000 will be saved.

Greetings in Christ, Sirach!

Have you read the rest of this sermon? He tells us that he will be dividing his subject into two points. Here is the substance of the first point that he sought to make in this sermon concerning whether few will be saved in comparison with the many who will be lost:

“To resolve this doubt, let us put the Fathers of the Church, both Greek and Latin, on one side; on the other, the most learned theologians and erudite historians; and let us put the Bible in the middle for all to see. Now listen not to what I will say to you – for I have already told you that I do not want to speak for myself or decide on the matter – but listen to what these great minds have to tell you, they who are beacons in the Church of God to give light to others so that they will not miss the road to heaven. In this manner, guided by the triple light of faith, authority and reason, we will be able to resolve this grave matter with certainty.

…]

“Add the authority of the Greek and Latin Fathers to that of the theologians, and you will find that almost all of them say the same thing. This is the sentiment of Saint Theodore, Saint Basil, Saint Ephrem, and Saint John Chrysostom. …] Now let us consult the Latin Fathers. You will hear Saint Gregory saying clearly, ‘Many attain to faith, but few to the heavenly kingdom.’ Saint Anselm declares, ‘There are few who are saved.’ Saint Augustine states even more clearly, ‘Therefore, few are saved in comparison to those who are [condemned].’ The most terrifying, however, is Saint Jerome. At the end of his life, in the presence of his disciples, he spoke these dreadful words: ‘Out of one hundred thousand people whose lives have always been bad, you will find barely one who is worthy of indulgence.’

“But why seek out the opinions of the Fathers and theologians, when Holy Scripture settles the question so clearly? Look in to the Old and New Testaments, and you will find a multitude of figures, symbols and words that clearly point out this truth: very few are saved. In the time of Noah, the entire human race was submerged by the Deluge, and only eight people were saved in the Ark. Saint Peter says, ‘This ark was the figure of the Church,’ while Saint Augustine adds, ‘And these eight people who were saved signify that very few Christians are saved, because there are very few who sincerely renounce the world, and those who renounce it only in words do not belong to the mystery represented by that ark.’ The Bible also tells us that only two Hebrews out of two million entered the Promised Land after going out of Egypt, and that only four escaped the fire of Sodom and the other burning cities that perished with it. All of this means that the number of the [condemned] who will be cast into fire like straw is far greater than that of the saved, whom the heavenly Father will one day gather into His barns like precious wheat.

“I would not finish if I had to point out all the figures by which Holy Scripture confirms this truth; let us content ourselves with listening to the living oracle of Incarnate Wisdom. What did Our Lord answer the curious man in the Gospel who asked Him, ‘Lord, is it only a few to be saved?’ Did He keep silence? Did He answer haltingly? Did He conceal His thought for fear of frightening the crowd? No. Questioned by only one, He addresses all of those present. He says to them: ‘You ask Me if there are only few who are saved?’ Here is My answer: ‘Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.’ Who is speaking here? It is the Son of God, Eternal Truth, who on another occasion says even more clearly, ‘Many are called, but few are chosen.’ He does not say that all are called and that out of all men, few are chosen, but that many are called; which means, as Saint Gregory explains, that out of all men, many are called to the True Faith, but out of them few are saved. Brothers, these are the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Are they clear? They are true” (“The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved”).

With the love of Christ,
Pete

 

[Sirach2]

Greetings in Christ, Sirach!

Have you read the rest of this sermon? He tells us that he will be dividing his subject into two points. Here is the substance of the first point that he sought to make in this sermon concerning whether few will be saved in comparison with the many who will be lost:

No, I am not interested to read it. I stand by his other statement: "What is the use of knowing whether few or many are saved? Saint Peter says to us, “Strive by good works to make your election sure.”

There is a very adamant overtone in this thread where some people persist in wanting others to concur with what you have posted. If it pleases you, I offer you the victor’s trophy… :yeah_me:

.

 

[Pete_Holter]

No, I am not interested to read it.

The LORD be with you, Sirach.

In Christ,
Pete

 

[Sirach2]

After a little follow-up on your post, Pete, I think it’s a good idea to consider the Site Review by CatholicCulture, who has given a “red - danger” rating. It is interesting to note the reasons as demonstrated in their “weakness” report. Maybe you were unaware.

1.) Fidelity: Clearly rejects the validity of the New Mass.

2.) An example of this is the article on the teaching that there is no salvation outside the Church. The author uses quotes from Church documents and the Saints to reiterate the Church’s assertion that outside of Her there can be no salvation. Unfortunately, he leaves it at that. There is no mention of the fact that the Church does not deny the possibility of salvation of those earnest and sincere persons outside Her fold who live and die in invincible ignorance of the true faith.

3.) Another and related example is the answer given to the question “What will happen to those who do not practice religion?” The author simply states that those who do not practice religion will go to Hell. There is no further explanation or qualifier offered.

In my book, anyone who rejects the Church’s mass, distorts Her teaching on salvation, and issues blanket statements who is going to hell, is not worth a second glance to anything else they have to say. Who knows if the document from St. Leonard is even valid?

These two paragraphs are quite meaningful from the alleged sermon:

Conclusion
Brothers, I want to send all of you away comforted today. So if you ask me my sentiment on the number of those who are saved, here it is: …]

Imagine an Angel sent by God to confirm the first opinion, coming to tell you that not only are most Catholics damned, but that of all this assembly present here, one alone will be saved. If you obey the Commandments of God, if you detest the corruption of this world, if you embrace the Cross of Jesus Christ in a spirit of penance, you will be that one alone who is saved.

Now imagine the same Angel returning to you and confirming the second opinion. He tells you that not only are the greater portion of Catholics saved, but that out of all this gathering, one alone will be damned and all the others saved. If after that, you continue your usuries, your vengeances, your criminal deeds, your impurities, then you will be that one alone who is damned.

Followed by this statement finalizing his conclusion, **“What is the use of knowing whether few or many are saved?” **

---

.

 

[brb3]

Greetings in Christ, Sirach!

Have you read the rest of this sermon? He tells us that he will be dividing his subject into two points. Here is the substance of the first point that he sought to make in this sermon concerning whether few will be saved in comparison with the many who will be lost:

“To resolve this doubt, let us put the Fathers of the Church, both Greek and Latin, on one side; on the other, the most learned theologians and erudite historians; and let us put the Bible in the middle for all to see. Now listen not to what I will say to you – for I have already told you that I do not want to speak for myself or decide on the matter – but listen to what these great minds have to tell you, they who are beacons in the Church of God to give light to others so that they will not miss the road to heaven. In this manner, guided by the triple light of faith, authority and reason, we will be able to resolve this grave matter with certainty.

…]

“Add the authority of the Greek and Latin Fathers to that of the theologians, and you will find that almost all of them say the same thing. This is the sentiment of Saint Theodore, Saint Basil, Saint Ephrem, and Saint John Chrysostom. …] Now let us consult the Latin Fathers. You will hear Saint Gregory saying clearly, ‘Many attain to faith, but few to the heavenly kingdom.’ Saint Anselm declares, ‘There are few who are saved.’ Saint Augustine states even more clearly, ‘Therefore, few are saved in comparison to those who are [condemned].’ The most terrifying, however, is Saint Jerome. At the end of his life, in the presence of his disciples, he spoke these dreadful words: ‘Out of one hundred thousand people whose lives have always been bad, you will find barely one who is worthy of indulgence.’

“But why seek out the opinions of the Fathers and theologians, when Holy Scripture settles the question so clearly? Look in to the Old and New Testaments, and you will find a multitude of figures, symbols and words that clearly point out this truth: very few are saved. In the time of Noah, the entire human race was submerged by the Deluge, and only eight people were saved in the Ark. Saint Peter says, ‘This ark was the figure of the Church,’ while Saint Augustine adds, ‘And these eight people who were saved signify that very few Christians are saved, because there are very few who sincerely renounce the world, and those who renounce it only in words do not belong to the mystery represented by that ark.’ The Bible also tells us that only two Hebrews out of two million entered the Promised Land after going out of Egypt, and that only four escaped the fire of Sodom and the other burning cities that perished with it. All of this means that the number of the [condemned] who will be cast into fire like straw is far greater than that of the saved, whom the heavenly Father will one day gather into His barns like precious wheat.

“I would not finish if I had to point out all the figures by which Holy Scripture confirms this truth; let us content ourselves with listening to the living oracle of Incarnate Wisdom. What did Our Lord answer the curious man in the Gospel who asked Him, ‘Lord, is it only a few to be saved?’ Did He keep silence? Did He answer haltingly? Did He conceal His thought for fear of frightening the crowd? No. Questioned by only one, He addresses all of those present. He says to them: ‘You ask Me if there are only few who are saved?’ Here is My answer: ‘Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.’ Who is speaking here? It is the Son of God, Eternal Truth, who on another occasion says even more clearly, ‘Many are called, but few are chosen.’ He does not say that all are called and that out of all men, few are chosen, but that many are called; which means, as Saint Gregory explains, that out of all men, many are called to the True Faith, but out of them few are saved. Brothers, these are the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Are they clear? They are true” (“The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved”).

With the love of Christ,
Pete

Pete…

U have supported the matter with overwhelming prooftext .

This is why we can never grow complacent, and neglect our election IN CHRIST !
Paul taught it’s a Marathon race …and only to those who complete the race is heavenly reward granted. How many can run a Marathon and complete ? Few indeed !

Persistence is the key. One big help, is saying a prayer for grace of Perseverance! I do this several times yearly. How many times have I gotten sidetracked on cares of this life … and suddenly be reminded of my folly and dire straits. If we ask to be reminded of our grave peril, and always reminded of it before we go over the cliff, …God will answer those prayers. The Good Shepherd never gives up on us …and always seeks out the lost & strays from flock !!

 

[Pete_Holter]

Sirach2:
Here is a French translation of the sermon that you can line up with the English that was provided.

In presenting the two points of his sermon, Saint Leonard tells us, “here are two very important truths.” The second truth, which you have highlighted, does away with our concern over the first truth from the perspective of practical application. Even if only one person is going to end up in hell, that one person could be you! So do whatever you can to avoid being this one person. But this “second truth” of his sermon does not do away with the question of whether the first truth is of valid and even “grave” theological enquiry. From this latter perspective, Saint Leonard says that the subject is “a very grave one” and he refers to it as a “terrible mystery.”

With love in Christ,
Pete

 

[Sirach2]

In presenting the two points of his sermon, Saint Leonard tells us, “here are two very important truths.” The second truth, which you have highlighted, does away with our concern over the first truth from the perspective of practical application. Even if only one person is going to end up in hell, that one person could be you! So do whatever you can to avoid being this one person. But this “second truth” of his sermon does not do away with the question of whether the first truth is of valid and even “grave” theological enquiry. From this latter perspective, Saint Leonard says that the subject is “a very grave one” and he refers to it as a “terrible mystery.”

With love in Christ,
Pete

Nice try, Pete. You stand by your view, and I’ll stand by mine; i.e., that it does no good to speculate the numbers of either saved or damned, as he emphacized in his conclusion. Can we agree to end this now?