B
brkn1
Guest
“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:3)
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L
look3467
Guest
The hard work of salvation has already been done, it was finnished 2000 years ago.“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:3)
He endured to the end, a situation where we could not go, but God alone.
The gift of God is easy, as Jesus said, “my yoke is easy”.
Our hard work is in working out what was given us, the gift of salvation, to conforming our bodies to meet His expectations.
Let us not forget that once Jesus enters the heart of the human soul, there begins a transformation, a sweep to clean from the inside out, which is reflected in a change of attitude qagainst worldly desires.
Peace>>>AJ
E
elvisman
Guest
The hard work of salvation has already been done, it was finnished 2000 years ago.
He endured to the end, a situation where we could not go, but God alone.
The gift of God is easy, as Jesus said, “my yoke is easy”.
Our hard work is in working out what was given us, the gift of salvation, to conforming our bodies to meet His expectations.
Let us not forget that once Jesus enters the heart of the human soul, there begins a transformation, a sweep to clean from the inside out, which is reflected in a change of attitude qagainst worldly desires.
Peace>>>AJ
simplicity that is in Christ." (2 Corinthians 11:3)"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the
He endured to the end, a situation where we could not go, but God alone.The hard work of salvation has already been done, it was finnished 2000 years ago.
The gift of God is easy, as Jesus said, “my yoke is easy”.
Our hard work is in working out what was given us, the gift of salvation, to conforming our bodies to meet His expectations.
Let us not forget that once Jesus enters the heart of the human soul, there begins a transformation, a sweep to clean from the inside out, which is reflected in a change of attitude qagainst worldly desires.
Peace>>>AJ
Have it your way – but in doing so, you toss out all of the following scripture verses (and MANY others):
Matt. 5:34, Matt. 5:48, Matt. 24:11, Mark 13:13, 2 Tim. 4:7, Matt. 7:19, Luke 9:23, Gal. 2:19, Romans 1:5, 16:26, John 6:66
As for the word “simple” in the KJV translation, a rudimentary study of the original Greek text shows that the word means “Sincere; honest”
NIV****
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.**
NASB
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
English Standard Version
But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.**
NAB
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts may be corrupted from a sincere (and pure) commitment to Christ.
The problem with your understanding of this text – especially when compared to all of the verses I furnished – is that you still believe this to mean simplistic.
**The full context of the New Testament is that it is not just simple faith. If it were, as I pointed out to nbtb1348 in Post #15 - w****hy would you - or anybody who claims to be Christian – be like all of the other former believers who abandoned Jesus because they lacked faith? **John 6:66.
OBEDIENCE of faith is key.
Anything** but simple.**
E
elvisman
Guest
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the
simplicity that is in Christ." (2 Corinthians 11:3)
Have it your way – but in doing so, you toss out all of the following scripture verses (and MANY others):The hard work of salvation has already been done, it was finnished 2000 years ago.
He endured to the end, a situation where we could not go, but God alone.
The gift of God is easy, as Jesus said, “my yoke is easy”.
Our hard work is in working out what was given us, the gift of salvation, to conforming our bodies to meet His expectations.
Let us not forget that once Jesus enters the heart of the human soul, there begins a transformation, a sweep to clean from the inside out, which is reflected in a change of attitude qagainst worldly desires.
Peace>>>AJ
Matt. 5:34, Matt. 5:48, Matt. 24:11, Mark 13:13, 2 Tim. 4:7, Matt. 7:19, Luke 9:23, Gal. 2:19, Romans 1:5, 16:26, John 6:66
As for the word “simple” in the KJV translation, a rudimentary study of the original Greek text shows that the word means “Sincere; honest”
NIV
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
NASB
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
English Standard Version
But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
NAB
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts may be corrupted from a sincere (and pure) commitment to Christ.
The problem with your understanding of this text – especially when compared to all of the verses I furnished – is that you still believe this to mean simplistic.
**The full context of the New Testament is that it is not a simple faith. If it were, as I pointed out to nbtb1348 in Post #15 - ****Why would you - or anybody who claims to be Christian – be like all of the other former believers who abandoned Jesus because they lacked faith? **John 6:66.
Anything but simple.
L
look3467
Guest
Perhaps the word easy has become a stumbling block?
If we associate Eve with the earthen vessel and Adam with the breath of God, we find Eve to be of the two the weaker.
If Eve is the weaker vessel, because Eve represents the flesh, then anything pertaining to the flesh could easily seduce it.
If Adam (the breath spirit of God in Eve) rises not to counter the threat of seduction by the world, then Eve will continue to be deceived.
Now, here is where easy comes in, Jesus took care of the deceitful nature of the flesh, described as “the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field”.
The flesh can no longer deceive the soul because Jesus gave us power over the flesh by conquering it in the flesh.
Easy, Yes,believe, trust and rely on Jesus for your every need and you will see that the flesh can not hold you back.
Paul said it clearly: Jhn 3:30 He must increase, but I [must] decrease.
Increase is Jesus in us, and the I, ego must decrease, for the I is what the flesh is with all its lustful desires.
What is hard is to try to fight the lusts of the flesh without first having Jesus in us.
With Jesus, the struggle becomes easier, sometimes instantly, and sometimes gradually, all according to what the Holy Spirit deems necessary.
The problem with your understanding of this text – especially when compared to all of the verses I furnished – is that you still believe this to mean simplistic.
The full context of the New Testament is that it is not a simple faith. If it were, as I pointed out to nbtb1348 in Post #15 - Why would you - or anybody who claims to be Christian – be like all of the other former believers who abandoned Jesus because they lacked faith? John 6:66.>>>elvisman
I can counter the underlined words with this verse:Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
When Jesus finds rest in our souls, nothing will seduce our souls.
Jhn 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and Hebrew/Greek LexiconList Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries
No Images or Hymns AvailableVersions / TranslationsDictionary Aids
Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
The story behind those two verse you can not see.
You have to understand that Jesus had to be crucified, and unless the Father opens the eyes of those who would crucify Him, they will fulfill the the Fathers commands.
Only a few, the Apostles and a few others, the Father did open their eyes to see Jesus as the true Messiah, therefore they believed and followed with interest.
The others, well, they could not see because they were blinded from seeing Jesus.
Today,we can apply those same verses if you like to those whose eyes have not being opened to see Jesus, not because God has blinded them, but the god of this world has.
Keep something in mind when giving verses power over the whole of the them of the bible.
Verses must fit as part of a puzzle to form a clear view of the big picture for sound understanding, otherwise, if interpreted alone, there is where danger lies.
Peace>>>AJ
:
If we associate Eve with the earthen vessel and Adam with the breath of God, we find Eve to be of the two the weaker.
If Eve is the weaker vessel, because Eve represents the flesh, then anything pertaining to the flesh could easily seduce it.
If Adam (the breath spirit of God in Eve) rises not to counter the threat of seduction by the world, then Eve will continue to be deceived.
Now, here is where easy comes in, Jesus took care of the deceitful nature of the flesh, described as “the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field”.
The flesh can no longer deceive the soul because Jesus gave us power over the flesh by conquering it in the flesh.
Easy, Yes,believe, trust and rely on Jesus for your every need and you will see that the flesh can not hold you back.
Paul said it clearly: Jhn 3:30 He must increase, but I [must] decrease.
Increase is Jesus in us, and the I, ego must decrease, for the I is what the flesh is with all its lustful desires.
What is hard is to try to fight the lusts of the flesh without first having Jesus in us.
With Jesus, the struggle becomes easier, sometimes instantly, and sometimes gradually, all according to what the Holy Spirit deems necessary.
The problem with your understanding of this text – especially when compared to all of the verses I furnished – is that you still believe this to mean simplistic.
The full context of the New Testament is that it is not a simple faith. If it were, as I pointed out to nbtb1348 in Post #15 - Why would you - or anybody who claims to be Christian – be like all of the other former believers who abandoned Jesus because they lacked faith? John 6:66.>>>elvisman
I can counter the underlined words with this verse:Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
When Jesus finds rest in our souls, nothing will seduce our souls.
Jhn 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and Hebrew/Greek LexiconList Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries
No Images or Hymns AvailableVersions / TranslationsDictionary Aids
Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
The story behind those two verse you can not see.
You have to understand that Jesus had to be crucified, and unless the Father opens the eyes of those who would crucify Him, they will fulfill the the Fathers commands.
Only a few, the Apostles and a few others, the Father did open their eyes to see Jesus as the true Messiah, therefore they believed and followed with interest.
The others, well, they could not see because they were blinded from seeing Jesus.
Today,we can apply those same verses if you like to those whose eyes have not being opened to see Jesus, not because God has blinded them, but the god of this world has.
Keep something in mind when giving verses power over the whole of the them of the bible.
Verses must fit as part of a puzzle to form a clear view of the big picture for sound understanding, otherwise, if interpreted alone, there is where danger lies.
Peace>>>AJ
:
E
elvisman
Guest
The problem of NOT fitting all biblical verses as a puzzle (as you put it) is clearly a Protestant problem.The full context of the New Testament is that it is not a simple faith. If it were, as I pointed out to nbtb1348 in Post #15 - Why would you - or anybody who claims to be Christian – be like all of the other former believers who abandoned Jesus because they lacked faith? John 6:66.>>>elvisman
I can counter the underlined words with this verse:Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
When Jesus finds rest in our souls, nothing will seduce our souls.
Jhn 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and Hebrew/Greek LexiconList Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries
No Images or Hymns AvailableVersions / TranslationsDictionary Aids
Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
The story behind those two verse you can not see.
You have to understand that Jesus had to be crucified, and unless the Father opens the eyes of those who would crucify Him, they will fulfill the the Fathers commands.
Only a few, the Apostles and a few others, the Father did open their eyes to see Jesus as the true Messiah, therefore they believed and followed with interest.
The others, well, they could not see because they were blinded from seeing Jesus.
Today,we can apply those same verses if you like to those whose eyes have not being opened to see Jesus, not because God has blinded them, but the god of this world has.
Keep something in mind when giving verses power over the whole of the them of the bible.
Verses must fit as part of a puzzle to form a clear view of the big picture for sound understanding, otherwise, if interpreted alone, there is where danger lies.
Peace>>>AJ
:
**It’s called CONTEXT - and that has ALWAYS been the problem with Protestantism - taking verses out of context with the whole of scripture. This is why non-believers say that the Bible is a mass contradiction. This appears to be the case when things are taken out of context.
**Those former believers and followers who left Jesus in John 6:66 **did so because of a lack of faith. They just couldn’t wrap their minds and hearts around Jesus’ command that we eat his flesh and drink his blood. That his flesh was TRUE food and his blood was TRUE drink.
This is why Jesus turns to the Twelve and says, “Do you also want to leave?” He knew they would stay but they had to be reinforced by faith. That is why the lead Apostle, Peter says, ***"Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. ***We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God." " It goes on to acknowledge that Judas was the only one among them that was not faithful - that he was in fact a devil.
This is what happened in the Protestant Revolt (Reformation). Prideful men, lacking faith deviated from Christ’s Church made up their *own *rules.
B
brkn1
Guest
Sincere and pure commitment to Christ means that there are no unnecessary extra baggage included in the strong and simple devotion to Christ.Have it your way – but in doing so, you toss out all of the following scripture verses (and MANY others):
Matt. 5:34, Matt. 5:48, Matt. 24:11, Mark 13:13, 2 Tim. 4:7, Matt. 7:19, Luke 9:23, Gal. 2:19, Romans 1:5, 16:26, John 6:66
As for the word “simple” in the KJV translation, a rudimentary study of the original Greek text shows that the word means “Sincere; honest”
NIV
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
NASB
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
English Standard Version
But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
NAB
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts may be corrupted from a sincere (and pure) commitment to Christ.
The problem with your understanding of this text – especially when compared to all of the verses I furnished – is that you still believe this to mean simplistic.
**The full context of the New Testament is that it is not a simple faith. If it were, as I pointed out to nbtb1348 in Post #15 - ****Why would you - or anybody who claims to be Christian – be like all of the other former believers who abandoned Jesus because they lacked faith? **John 6:66.
Anything but simple.
I do not complicate and confuse that commitment with extra stuff that really only takes away from Who Jesus is and what He did to save me.
A complicated love, commitment and devotion is not a true and pure love, commitment and devotion.
The addition of extra baggage is proof of insincerity and lack of true love, devotion and commitment.
Those who complicate the truth are those who truly lack the truth.
Jesus pointed to the hypocrites that hid behind the complications which they added using human tradition to keep themselves and others from the true “weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy,and faith”.
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elvisman
Guest
**Ahh, but this “simple faith” as you refer to it - is anything but simple - especially for the Protestant. **Sincere and pure commitment to Christ means that there are no unnecessary extra baggage included in the strong and simple devotion to Christ.
I do not complicate and confuse that commitment with extra stuff that really only takes away from Who Jesus is and what He did to save me.
A complicated love, commitment and devotion is not a true and pure love, commitment and devotion.
The addition of extra baggage is proof of insincerity and lack of true love, devotion and commitment.
Those who complicate the truth are those who truly lack the truth.
Jesus pointed to the hypocrites that hid behind the complications which they added using human tradition to keep themselves and others from the true “weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy,and faith”.
Faith and more importantly - obedience of faith means that you believe in EVERYthing Jesus taught. You can’t just pick and choose what you want to believe because that is NOT a true faith.
Also, whether you like it or not, Jesus left hisChurch in charge here on earth and gave her FULL AUTHORITY to settle all matters, to bind and to loose (Matt: 16:15-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 16:13-15, John 17:1-26)
To rebel against that Church - that AUTHORITY - is to rebel against Jesus himself (Luke 10:16).
L
look3467
Guest
elvisman,
It is sufficient for you to follow closely the traditions and practices of the Catholic Church, for there in lies your strength.
All is good!
I stand on the foundation which Christ has laid, and that foundation is faith in Him, there in is my strength.
Peace>>>AJ
It is sufficient for you to follow closely the traditions and practices of the Catholic Church, for there in lies your strength.
All is good!
I stand on the foundation which Christ has laid, and that foundation is faith in Him, there in is my strength.
Peace>>>AJ
L
look3467
Guest
Without a doubt, the purest form!Sincere and pure commitment to Christ means that there are no unnecessary extra baggage included in the strong and simple devotion to Christ.>>> brkn1
Only God has revealed it unto you to understand that He saved you without you even lifting a finger, only opening your heart to Him.I do not complicate and confuse that commitment with extra stuff that really only takes away from Who Jesus is and what He did to save me.>>>brkn1
You stand confirmed by your own testimony on a sure foundation and have entrance into His kingdom yet while in the flesh.
Peace>>>AJ
E
elvisman
Guest
**Again - and for the last time because it seems we’re at an impasse here - you, brkn1 and nbtb1348 seem to be under the same false assumption that you can have the fullness of the faith while practicing cafeteria Christianity.elvisman,
It is sufficient for you to follow closely the traditions and practices of the Catholic Church, for there in lies your strength.
All is good!
I stand on the foundation which Christ has laid, and that foundation is faith in Him, there in is my strength.
Peace>>>AJ
You want part of this but none of that.
Faith in Jesus - as I’ve stated ad nauseum - doesn’t just mean to “believe” or to have “simple faith”. It is a complete, life-changing, all-encompassing faith. To take up your cross daily and be crucified with Christ.
That, as I have stated - again, ad nauseum - is what makes you faith in Jesus - a true living faith - not just a “burning in the bosom”.
I’ll give you one thing - you and brkn1 have been much more charitable in our discussion than nbtb1348. I think there is a lot of unresolved and downright immature vitriol there.
L
look3467
Guest
There is only one problem I see in what you are saying, is that if according to your understanding, others don’t meet your criteria of what it is to live a true living faith as you put it, they will not be genuine.**Again - *and for the last ***time because it seems we’re at an impasse here - you, brkn1 and **nbtb1348 **seem to be under the same false assumption that you can have the fullness of the faith while practicing cafeteria Christianity.
You want part of this but none of that.
Faith in Jesus - as I’ve stated ad nauseum - doesn’t just mean to "believe" or to have “simple faith”. It is a complete, life-changing, all-encompassing faith. To take up your cross daily and be crucified with Christ.
That, as I have stated - again, ad nauseum - is what makes you faith in Jesus - a true living faith - not just a “burning in the bosom”.
I’ll give you one thing - you and brkn1 have been much more charitable in our discussion than nbtb1348. I think there is a lot of unresolved and downright immature vitriol there.
Therefore Judgment is passed based on what you think rather than what God thinks.
Cafeteria Christianity as you put it is limiting others to your understanding, therefore the soul of that individual is in question.
Is it possible to sin while saved?
Are you saved and sinless?
The question then is, what must one do to be saved?
The word saved is past tense, becoming saved is on going, and will be saved is future.
Which of the three fits your situation?
If you were born once, how can you be born again?
Is it possible to again go back into the mothers womb?
Being born again is not something that involves work, but is a spiritual circumcision of the heart.
Therefore, we can not set a standard of our choosing, or believed standards that others should follow in order for us to make a proper judgment of that individuals soul.
The eternal aspect of our souls were addressed at the cross, the present behavioral problems are addressed here, on a daily basis.
What you sow, that shall you reap.
Peace>>>AJ
E
elvisman
Guest
I don’t think you’re understanding what I’ve said.There is only one problem I see in what you are saying, is that if according to your understanding, others don’t meet your criteria of what it is to live a true living faith as you put it, they will not be genuine.
Therefore Judgment is passed based on what you think rather than what God thinks.
Cafeteria Christianity as you put it is limiting others to your understanding, therefore the soul of that individual is in question.
Is it possible to sin while saved?
Are you saved and sinless?
The question then is, what must one do to be saved?
The word saved is past tense, becoming saved is on going, and will be saved is future.
Which of the three fits your situation?
If you were born once, how can you be born again?
Is it possible to again go back into the mothers womb?
Being born again is not something that involves work, but is a spiritual circumcision of the heart.
Therefore, we can not set a standard of our choosing, or believed standards that others should follow in order for us to make a proper judgment of that individuals soul.
The eternal aspect of our souls were addressed at the cross, the present behavioral problems are addressed here, on a daily basis.
What you sow, that shall you reap.
Peace>>>AJ
First of all – I’m not limiting anybody to my understanding of anything. You and your friends on this thread are the ones are the ones who have imposed your criteria for salvation. I am simply refuting it with scripture. I am showing you the biblical formula for rebirth.
Am I saved?
I am in the process. That is my fervent hope. You guys mistake redemption with salvation. Redemption opens the door for us to be saved.
Am I sinless?
Nope**. I don’t know of one person in this world who is sinless. If he/she exists, I’d sure like to meet him/her.**
**Is it possible to sin while saved? **
That depends what you mean. If you mean after I have been reborn in Baptism, the answer is absolutely, according to Scripture (2 Timothy 2:12, Matt. 7:21, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, 1 Cor. 9:2, Philippians 2:12, Romans 11:22 and 2 Peter 2:26-27).
If you mean after final sanctification – which we won’t know until we die – the answer is No.
How can I be born again?
I was born again at baptism - as Jesus stated in John 3:5, as prophesied in Ezekiel 326:25-26 and as reinforced in Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:20-22. You can’t give a Protestant rationalization for that. It says what it says and means what it means. You can dance around that all day until the cows come home and it’ll still mean what it says.**
L
look3467
Guest
Elvisman,
Thanks for responding, I may or may not be of any help to your understanding, but there will be some who might see some things they have not heard before and prompted to look into the word more readily.
I come from the point of view that it is instantaneously without any conditions.
The others are progressive with conditions.
When the seed is conceived in the womb, it takes up to 9 months for birth.
The seed (faith) is already in all of us but for many of us, the birth is latent due to the Holy Spirits activation.
When the Holy Spirit activates the seed faith, rebirth becomes instantaneous.
What happens next is the beginnings of a cleaning out of this worlds desires and heavenly things begin to fill the heart.
Working out of our salvation begins at rebirth in when we begin to grow as our spirit prospers.
All other views of gaining salvation are conditional depending on the views of the individual denominations.
Let me refer you to one verse: Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Do you see to have your salvation in Jesus as begun at your rebirth?
What we do not see we hope to see, but if you see it, then it is no longer hope, but a reality.
The reason this thread is continuing is because the hope is still not seen.
Am I sinless?
Nope. I don’t know of one person in this world who is sinless. If he/she exists, I’d sure like to meet him/her.>>>>elvisman
The real answer to that question should be first yes, than No.
You understand that sin can not enter heaven, Right?
So how can we have a rebirth and become sons of God with sin?
Yes, we are perfect in Jesus, for God sees Jesus and not us, if you can understand what I mean.
And No, because in the flesh, we are accountable only to ourselves, that as sons of God, we are accountable to our own actions, behavior.
What we sow, that shall we reap.
But salvation itself is secure, paid for lock stock and barrel.
Need only to seek it out.
Is it possible to sin while saved?
That depends what you mean. If you mean after I have been reborn in Baptism, the answer is absolutely, according to Scripture (2 Timothy 2:12, Matt. 7:21, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, 1 Cor. 9:2, Philippians 2:12, Romans 11:22 and 2 Peter 2:26-27).
If you mean after final sanctification – which we won’t know until we die – the answer is No.>>>elvisman
See my previous explanation above.
Continued on next post, Thanks, AJ
Thanks for responding, I may or may not be of any help to your understanding, but there will be some who might see some things they have not heard before and prompted to look into the word more readily.
Rebirth, is instantaneously or progressive?I don’t think you’re understanding what I’ve said. elvisman
First of all – I’m not limiting anybody to my understanding of anything. You and your friends on this thread are the ones are the ones who have imposed your criteria for salvation. I am simply refuting it with scripture. I am showing you the biblical formula for rebirth.>>>elvisman
I come from the point of view that it is instantaneously without any conditions.
The others are progressive with conditions.
When the seed is conceived in the womb, it takes up to 9 months for birth.
The seed (faith) is already in all of us but for many of us, the birth is latent due to the Holy Spirits activation.
When the Holy Spirit activates the seed faith, rebirth becomes instantaneous.
What happens next is the beginnings of a cleaning out of this worlds desires and heavenly things begin to fill the heart.
Working out of our salvation begins at rebirth in when we begin to grow as our spirit prospers.
All other views of gaining salvation are conditional depending on the views of the individual denominations.
Christ’s work on the cross redeemed us, which is the redemption of the soul.Am I saved?
I am in the process. That is my fervent hope. You guys mistake redemption with salvation. Redemption opens the door for us to be saved.>>> elvisman
Let me refer you to one verse: Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Do you see to have your salvation in Jesus as begun at your rebirth?
What we do not see we hope to see, but if you see it, then it is no longer hope, but a reality.
The reason this thread is continuing is because the hope is still not seen.
Am I sinless?
Nope. I don’t know of one person in this world who is sinless. If he/she exists, I’d sure like to meet him/her.>>>>elvisman
The real answer to that question should be first yes, than No.
You understand that sin can not enter heaven, Right?
So how can we have a rebirth and become sons of God with sin?
Yes, we are perfect in Jesus, for God sees Jesus and not us, if you can understand what I mean.
And No, because in the flesh, we are accountable only to ourselves, that as sons of God, we are accountable to our own actions, behavior.
What we sow, that shall we reap.
But salvation itself is secure, paid for lock stock and barrel.
Need only to seek it out.
Is it possible to sin while saved?
That depends what you mean. If you mean after I have been reborn in Baptism, the answer is absolutely, according to Scripture (2 Timothy 2:12, Matt. 7:21, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, 1 Cor. 9:2, Philippians 2:12, Romans 11:22 and 2 Peter 2:26-27).
If you mean after final sanctification – which we won’t know until we die – the answer is No.>>>elvisman
See my previous explanation above.
Continued on next post, Thanks, AJ
L
look3467
Guest
Continued from last post, AJ
How can I be born again?
I was born again at baptism - as Jesus stated in John 3:5, as prophesied in Ezekiel 326:25-26 and as reinforced in Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:20-22. You can’t give a Protestant rationalization for that. It says what it says and means what it means. You can dance around that all day until the cows come home and it’ll still mean what it says.>>>elvisman
OK, you said you were born again at baptism, to mean that you were reborn as a child of God?
As a child of God, can you again become not a child? Can you die spiritually and rebirth spiritually over and over and over? Meaning having to be baptized over in each instance?
What about this verse: Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
I don’t see Christ being sacrificed over and over, but only once and that is for ever.
If anybody is dancing around, the ones are who are still hoping and trying to find salvation with out the rebirth process and by progressing in behavior to a level that they feel God may or may not accept them.
I must admit, that that proceeded keeps many in line from sinning excessively out of fear of hell, that they can not enjoy the joys of salvation.
I believe it was in the early church history that that issue had to be resolved. The question was universal salvation or heaven and hell conditions.
The settlement was heaven and hell, because it was determined that if the people understood the universal salvation view, they would not be prompt to live right and sin at will.
God traded the 99 sheep (Cows [souls of mankind] if you will) for the one lost sheep. (Jesus)
Jesus in taking our sins became the only one lost, can you see that? Instead of us?
God left the 99 to find the one, Jesus, and saved Him from the pit of hell.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 141:8 But mine eyes are unto thee, O GOD the Lord: in thee is my trust; leave not my soul destitute.
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Was your rebirth because of the washing of baptism, or was it because you came to full knowledge of salvation in Christ?
The first is physical, the second is spiritual.
The second is the rebirth process and not the first.
We all have understandings which is not detrimental to our salvation, the misunderstanding of it is the struggle to find it.
For many, it is progressive because they had not found it.
If salvation were not secured, then all our discussions would be to secure that salvation by whatever means any of us understand it to be, thus the confrontational attitudes portrayed here and all other forums similar to this one.
I have no confrontational issues because first I understand that salvation is secure for all of us, which makes our differences nothing but an entertainment value.
If we want to discuss the value of our salvation, then that is something we can all agree on.
Peace>>>AJ
How can I be born again?
I was born again at baptism - as Jesus stated in John 3:5, as prophesied in Ezekiel 326:25-26 and as reinforced in Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:20-22. You can’t give a Protestant rationalization for that. It says what it says and means what it means. You can dance around that all day until the cows come home and it’ll still mean what it says.>>>elvisman
OK, you said you were born again at baptism, to mean that you were reborn as a child of God?
As a child of God, can you again become not a child? Can you die spiritually and rebirth spiritually over and over and over? Meaning having to be baptized over in each instance?
What about this verse: Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
I don’t see Christ being sacrificed over and over, but only once and that is for ever.
If anybody is dancing around, the ones are who are still hoping and trying to find salvation with out the rebirth process and by progressing in behavior to a level that they feel God may or may not accept them.
I must admit, that that proceeded keeps many in line from sinning excessively out of fear of hell, that they can not enjoy the joys of salvation.
I believe it was in the early church history that that issue had to be resolved. The question was universal salvation or heaven and hell conditions.
The settlement was heaven and hell, because it was determined that if the people understood the universal salvation view, they would not be prompt to live right and sin at will.
God traded the 99 sheep (Cows [souls of mankind] if you will) for the one lost sheep. (Jesus)
Jesus in taking our sins became the only one lost, can you see that? Instead of us?
God left the 99 to find the one, Jesus, and saved Him from the pit of hell.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 141:8 But mine eyes are unto thee, O GOD the Lord: in thee is my trust; leave not my soul destitute.
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Was your rebirth because of the washing of baptism, or was it because you came to full knowledge of salvation in Christ?
The first is physical, the second is spiritual.
The second is the rebirth process and not the first.
We all have understandings which is not detrimental to our salvation, the misunderstanding of it is the struggle to find it.
For many, it is progressive because they had not found it.
If salvation were not secured, then all our discussions would be to secure that salvation by whatever means any of us understand it to be, thus the confrontational attitudes portrayed here and all other forums similar to this one.
I have no confrontational issues because first I understand that salvation is secure for all of us, which makes our differences nothing but an entertainment value.
If we want to discuss the value of our salvation, then that is something we can all agree on.
Peace>>>AJ
E
elvisman
Guest
I had to delete your post in order to fit mine.Continued from last post, AJ
There are so many** holes ****in your logic that it’s hard to know where to begin. Instead of addressing each remark individually, I’ll address the ****entire **post as a whole.
Yes, I was reborn a child of God. I only need to be baptized once. If and when I fall into grave sin, Jesus set up an Authority called his “Church” to bind or loose, to forgive or retain my sins (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 20:22-23). Jesus gave ALL power to his Church (Matt. 18:15-18, John 14-15), whom he said the Holy spirit would guide into ALL truth (John 16:13).
Correct me if I’m wrong, but by your logic, once you are reborn you either:
A. Can sin all you want without further repentance because you’ve** already**** been forgiven for past, present and future sins.**
OR
B. Are incapable of falling into sin
The scriptures I have shown you illustrate that neither is correct.
Another thing is that you appear to believe that rebirth and salvation to be the same thing. They are not. Whereas rebirth is an event, salvation is a process.
The following Scriptures you presented - Psa 16:10 & Psa 141:8 and Acts 2:27 are referring to David and Jesus. In the Acts passages, Peter is telling the crowd that this Jesus they crucified is the same person spoken of and prophesied by David. The Holy one that didn’t see corruption is JESUS.
Sometimes Scripture doesn’t speak about ALL of us as a whole. Sometimes it is specific and this is one of those times.
**Don’t you see what happens when you take Scripture out of context? This is the problem with Protestantism. Everybody interprets for himself what he FEELS is correct, thereby breaking away from the rest and starting his own “church” until you have the tens of thousands of bickering churches we have today. This is NOT the unity that Jesus prayed for in John 17. **
"OSAS" is NOT supported by the Bible - when taken in context as it should be.
Unfortunately, Protestants have “twisted the scriptures to their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16).
T
thirdn6
Guest
Non- Catholic folks,
**To “love God with all thy heart, with all thy mind, and with all thy soul” is SIMPLE. It involves just you and your God.
To “love thy neighbor as thyself” makes everything NOT SIMPLE. It entails true faith and total obedience to truth because you now interact with others and not cause them to stumble!**
Two commandments of Jesus. Two NOT one.
Peace.
**To “love God with all thy heart, with all thy mind, and with all thy soul” is SIMPLE. It involves just you and your God.
To “love thy neighbor as thyself” makes everything NOT SIMPLE. It entails true faith and total obedience to truth because you now interact with others and not cause them to stumble!**
Two commandments of Jesus. Two NOT one.
Peace.
L
look3467
Guest
Elvisman
Your being Catholic naturally is noted in how you view scripture.
If I were to adhere closely to the Catholic churches views, I would not be free to venture into the word without being condemned as being in error, if should I find something different.
Is the Catholic church not in human hands, meaning management?
Then it is fallible just as any other denomination.
If you wish to contest that fact, just look at the problems the Catholic Church has had with it’s priests behavioral problems.
I mentioned that to say this, that unless anybody, regardless of what denomination they belong to, does not in their daily walk exercise Godly type of love, then his or her religion is missing the mark.
Jim Jones, David Koresh are but a few who took the word of God for their own personal gain and unfortunately, led those who did not have a solid foundation in the word of God, astray to their own destruction.
Churches, physical ones I mean, are designed to lead and guide people in the art of living and walking with God.
But because it is managed by fallible humans, it is up to the individual to become grounded in the word in order to keep from being led astray.
Now to your questions:
Verse ref: Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
As a child of God I will fall in my walk, but He as a Father will lift me up as His offer of forgiveness is always there.
If I do not learn my lesson once, then I am apt to repeat it again.
There are two distinct types of sins (sin and sins) that is apparent in the bible.
Number 2. above belongs to us, we are solely accountable for our own sins and compensation is required in the flesh, either by punishment or by relinquishing life. (Being cut off from the l;and of the living)
So, as child of God, I sin not in the case of number 1.
But in the case of number 2, well, I will be spanked and will be vexed in spirit until I repent.
If I repent not, though saved, I remain in my sins.
This two type sins applies to all humanity regardless of what belief system we hold.
What I am trying to do is not argue semantics, the study of ways of interpreting and analyzing theories of logic, but to impress upon the actions of Godly love within any religious group.
But in the process of doing that, argument in semantics arise.
These are that which divides and not unites.
Peace>>>AJ
Your being Catholic naturally is noted in how you view scripture.
If I were to adhere closely to the Catholic churches views, I would not be free to venture into the word without being condemned as being in error, if should I find something different.
Is the Catholic church not in human hands, meaning management?
Then it is fallible just as any other denomination.
If you wish to contest that fact, just look at the problems the Catholic Church has had with it’s priests behavioral problems.
I mentioned that to say this, that unless anybody, regardless of what denomination they belong to, does not in their daily walk exercise Godly type of love, then his or her religion is missing the mark.
Jim Jones, David Koresh are but a few who took the word of God for their own personal gain and unfortunately, led those who did not have a solid foundation in the word of God, astray to their own destruction.
Churches, physical ones I mean, are designed to lead and guide people in the art of living and walking with God.
But because it is managed by fallible humans, it is up to the individual to become grounded in the word in order to keep from being led astray.
Now to your questions:
A. Can sin all you want, but beware, the consequences are more severe because it vexes the heart to make a change.Correct me if I’m wrong, but by your logic, once you are reborn you either:
A. Can sin all you want without further repentance because you’re already been forgiven for past, present and future sins.
OR
B. Are incapable of falling into sin>>>elvisman
Verse ref: Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
As a child of God I will fall in my walk, but He as a Father will lift me up as His offer of forgiveness is always there.
If I do not learn my lesson once, then I am apt to repeat it again.
There are two distinct types of sins (sin and sins) that is apparent in the bible.
- Separation from God is a sin of death of eternal nature.
Ref: 1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
The sin not unto death is the one Jesus purchased with His life’s blood. - The behavioral sins we commit while in the flesh. (These are all unrighteous sins)
Number 2. above belongs to us, we are solely accountable for our own sins and compensation is required in the flesh, either by punishment or by relinquishing life. (Being cut off from the l;and of the living)
So, as child of God, I sin not in the case of number 1.
But in the case of number 2, well, I will be spanked and will be vexed in spirit until I repent.
If I repent not, though saved, I remain in my sins.
This two type sins applies to all humanity regardless of what belief system we hold.
What I am trying to do is not argue semantics, the study of ways of interpreting and analyzing theories of logic, but to impress upon the actions of Godly love within any religious group.
But in the process of doing that, argument in semantics arise.
These are that which divides and not unites.
Peace>>>AJ
L
look3467
Guest
That is absolutely correct addressed to all individuals whether Catholic or non Catholics.Non- Catholic folks,
To “love God with all thy heart, with all thy mind, and with all thy soul” is SIMPLE. It involves just you and your God.
To “love thy neighbor as thyself” makes everything NOT SIMPLE. It entails true faith and total obedience to truth because you now interact with others and not cause them to stumble!
Two commandments of Jesus. Two NOT one.
Peace.
The first commandment includes the first five of the Ten Commandments, the second commandments includes the second 5 of the Ten Commandments.
But God in Christ has made them easy, for if we just Love our neighbor as ourselves, we comply with the first.
Now, as a Catholic or a protestant, the same applies, no difference.
The point is in understanding that and then applying it to a world that is in darkness for lack of knowledge of the Truth.
The truth is lived as a demonstration of what and who God is.
As the Moon reflects the light of the Sun, so should we, reflect the light which is in us to the world as a light in the darkness, as the Moon does.
Can we do that being a Mormon , a Catholic and any other belief system? Yes!
That is if the individual heart is right with God.
Peace>>>AJ
E
elvisman
Guest
Again, I had to delete much of your post in order to fit response.Elvisman
Is the Catholic church not in human hands, meaning management?
Then it is fallible just as any other denomination.
If you wish to contest that fact, just look at the problems the Catholic Church has had with it’s priests behavioral problems.
I mentioned that to say this, that unless anybody, regardless of what denomination they belong to, does not in their daily walk exercise Godly type of love, then his or her religion is missing the mark.
Churches, physical ones I mean, are designed to lead and guide people in the art of living and walking with God.
But because it is managed by fallible humans, it is up to the individual to become grounded in the word in order to keep from being led astray.
Now to your questions:
God took care of number 1. above because only He could.
- Separation from God is a sin of death of eternal nature.
Ref: 1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
The sin not unto death is the one Jesus purchased with His life’s blood.- The behavioral sins we commit while in the flesh. (These are all unrighteous sins)
Number 2. above belongs to us, we are solely accountable for our own sins and compensation is required in the flesh, either by punishment or by relinquishing life. (Being cut off from the l;and of the living)
So, as child of God, I sin not in the case of number 1.
But in the case of number 2, well, I will be spanked and will be vexed in spirit until I repent.
If I repent not, though saved, I remain in my sins.
This two type sins applies to all humanity regardless of what belief system we hold.
Peace>>>AJ
First of all, the Catholic Church isn’t a denomination. It is the Universal Christian Church established by Jesus Christ himself.
Baptist, Lutheran, Foursquare Gospel Church, Cornerstone, Calvary** –**** those **are a few of the tens of thousands of denominations invented by men.
**As for the Priest sex scandal – ****how does that come into play? The actions of some members of the body, while doing damage to the body, do not make up the entire body (1 Cor. 12:12-20). Again, while this does damage to the body, the rest of the body is not responsible for the sins of each individual. Jesus had twelve Apostles and one of them was a devil (John 6:70). Does that mean that Jesus wasn’t infallible? Of course not. That’s a really lame argument, friend.
You’re right about one thing. God’s offer of forgiveness is ALWAYS there. BUT, it doesn’t mean we are forgiven. We have to repent in order to be forgiven.
You mention “unrighteous sin”. What does that mean? ALL sin is unrighteous (1 John 5:17). Where do you get your ideas about the types of sin? There are, indeed 2 types of sin: Venial, which harms our relationship with God and Mortal, which causes spiritual death and severs our relationship with God.
You also claim that Jesus took care of mortal sins but the others are up to us to deal with? WHAT?? This is HERESY – plain and simple.
Jesus took care of ALL sin when he died on the cross - ALL sin, friend.
Let me ask you something – these ideas sprang up in the last 400 or so years. This has never been a belief of the Church Fathers or a historical Church belief at all. It is not supported by the context of scripture. Where did you get this from?
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