A Gripe I Have

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What difference does it make if communication is taking place before Mass begins if the communication is in the form of wispering?
 
I don’t want to split hairs but does it make a difference if there IS no tabernacle? IOW when we go into mass, the hosts have not yet been consecrated. As we walk in we tell the person how many and she puts them into a crystal bowl that is brought up later. (FWIW we don’t have our own building so we are renting another church)

I don’t mean to excuse chatting before mass but some have said that this is disrespectful to Jesus. But if there is no tabernacle and the hosts are not consecrated is it a different story?

Lisa N
 
Lisa,

In that case, I would say it’s OK, unless there are people praying. Then I would try to keep the chatter to a minimum. This would also be the case for those chirches whose tabernacle is in another location, such as a Eucharistic Chapel. Our parish is building a new church which will have a Eucharistic Chapel.
 
Michael Welter:
Lisa,

In that case, I would say it’s OK, unless there are people praying. Then I would try to keep the chatter to a minimum. This would also be the case for those chirches whose tabernacle is in another location, such as a Eucharistic Chapel. Our parish is building a new church which will have a Eucharistic Chapel.
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Thank you. I appreciate this thread because I realize guilty as charged and probably no excuse to say well everyone is doing it. There are people trying to pray and I am embarrassed now that I was rude enough to engage in conversation 😦 and possibly disturb them. I know our priest really wants a Eucharistic Chapel when we build a new church. That should help those who want some quiet time before mass.

Lisa N
 
Why is it sad? Do you not listen to Jesus’ words when he said “Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me.”? To me that is saying that each one of us is Christ on Earth. Yes, that person you call a “bum” is Jesus in the flesh. Yes, that person you look down on for talking in mass is Jesus in the flesh.

I have another question a priest posed to us once. Why do you have such an easy time believing in the real presence of Christ in bread and wine but yet you can’t see Christ in each and every person you meet?

Darryl
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allhers:
and the part in red here is very sad that someone would think or believe this:

Originally Posted by Petertherock
I have mixed emotions about this issue. Although I feel people should be respectful to people who are praying I also feel to be social to the parishoners (who are just as much the real presence of Christ as the bread in the tabernacle is) is important. I don’t think people should be socializing during Mass of course but before and after Mass is a sticky subject. I think if it’s a Church like my church that has a Narthax that would be appropriate for conversating before and after Mass that’s where people should go. But I have been to churches that don’t have any area outside the Church and in that cases I think talking is appropriate but it should be kept to a minimum as not to interfere with people who are praying.-----------I think if they have no place to gather and talk, then there is always outside.
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Hello all and a Godly day to you.

There are several clarifications which need to be made from what I have read on this thread (I hope some of you will check this thread today).

First, chatting/speaking/talking out loud in the parish-church:

The USCCB released a document called “The Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Eucharist” (c 2001) which is a Q&A about the Blessed Sacrament. It states under question #9: “It is appropriate for the assembly to greet each other in the gathering space of the church (that is the vestibule or narthex) because of the presence of Christ in the tabernacle,{notice it does not say “bread”–Kev} but it is not appropriate to speak in loud or boisterous tones in the body of the church (that is, the nave) because of the presence of Christ in the tabernacle.”

(See it here: usccb.org/publishing/5-434Q8-11.pdf )

Second to Petertherock, I respectfully ask you to refer to your catechism (paragraph 1373) which shows how Jesus is present to us in many ways: “Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us,” is present in many ways to his Church:in his word, in his Church’s prayer, "where two or three are gathered in my name,"in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned,199 in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But “he is present . . . most especially in the Eucharistic species.”

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt1art3.htm#iii

He is not, not, not present in the same way in humans. I respectfully ask you to cite a magisterial document which supports this statement, “Yes, that person you look down on for talking in mass is Jesus in the flesh.” Which document actually uses those words ‘in the flesh’ when speaking about Jesus being in human beings? (again, I ask respectfully—no intention of “starting a fight”)

We are all sinners (1 John 1:8) and as we all know Jesus had NO sin within him (Heb 4:15). We are striving to be Christ-like by participating in his Divinity (1 John 3:2, 2 Peter 1:4).

Jesus is sacramentally, really, and concretely----Body, Blood, Soul, and Dvinity-----present in the Sacred Species of the Host and Precious Blood. “Bread” and “wine” are no longer there (or, the real ‘absence’). This is why we genuflect towards the tabernacle before entering the pew at Church. This is why we Adore and worship Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist at Benediction, Adoration, Exposition, and Processions (see CCC 1378) and not each other. The focus is supposed to be on him, not us.

I have been seeing the word “Physically” present describing Christ’s Real Presence too. Technically speaking, this is not correct. The Magisterium (teaching office of the Church) has never used this word when describing Christ’s Presence in the Sacred Species. If anyone can find a document, I would love to see it.

I think this was a great thread. With the documents like Ecclesia de Eucharistia and Mane Nobiscum Domine coming from the Holy See, it is easy to tell Rome is very concerned about reverence, worship, and right BELIEF due to Our Lord in the Eucharist.

The October Synod will be a great thing for Holy Mother Church.

God bless you all.
 
Let’s not assume that just because someone isn’t kneeling that they aren’t sitting there praying. Even when some people whisper their whispers are loud - its distracting and rude.

My whole basis of creating this thread was to tell people to please be more considerate and be more aware of where they are and why they’re there. No visiting is urgent enough to where it has to be done in the church - if it is that urgent you should already have their phone number.
 
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Kevirish01:
I have been seeing the word “Physically” present describing Christ’s Real Presence too. Technically speaking, this is not correct. The Magisterium (teaching office of the Church) has never used this word when describing Christ’s Presence in the Sacred Species. If anyone can find a document, I would love to see it.
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Kevirish,

I’m confused… could you please explain the difference between “physical” presence and “real” presence? I always thought they were the same concept. I have used both terms interchangeably and if I’m incorrect, I’d like to know.

God Bless,
Gary
 
In my Church, the Priest has hand lettered signs on each of the three doors to the inside of the Church that say “Silence!” in large letters.
When I attended a Newman Center in AZ, we got a new (23 year old) music director that refused to use the songbooks and had preprinted song sheets handed out before the Mass instead. Everyone was to sing along with him and learn the new music in the 10 minutes before Mass. Lots of hand clapping, hand waving music, none of which you would ever find in a Catholic song book.
While some did the singing “thing”, everyone else was visiting and yakking loudly.
To attempt to pray before Mass was next to impossible. (No kneelers either!)
I love my Church now. So much reverence!
 
Maybe no one else had this experience, but in the early '80’s, before I became a temporarily lapsed Catholic, those in charge were actually telling people that they SHOULD talk in church before and after Mass because it showed our community.
 
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katy:
Maybe no one else had this experience, but in the early '80’s, before I became a temporarily lapsed Catholic, those in charge were actually telling people that they SHOULD talk in church before and after Mass because it showed our community.
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Yes they did!! I was in South Texas at that time and talking and socializing both before and after Mass was encouraged. The Priest and the Sisters that were usually there, actually walked around shaking hands, making introductions, telling and jokes and stories prior to Mass. The Priest normally did away with the entrance procession and he and the Sisters just went up to the Altar when it was time. The Sisters usually did all the readings including the Homilies on occasion. What really got me there was applause at the end of Mass. I had never seen anything like that.
 
carol marie:
I honestly had NO IDEA we were not supposed to talk after mass. Everyone it seems does at my church. I actually feel sort of silly for singing both verses of the closing hymn because it seems that everyone is visiting by then. If being quiet is the rule, I can tell you that it’s SO NOT observed where I go & I’ve been told we have a very conservative parish. Also, are you supposed to genuflect (sp?) when you leave? Only maybe 1/2 do that. My DH said maybe it was optional?
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Actually, at my parish the priests have suggested that we remain in church for a good 15 minutes after the Mass ends because it takes at least that long for Jesus to pass through the stomach. I had no appreciation for this until I switched parishes and seen about 25-40 people remaining in the church to just sit quietly, or praying following the Mass.

In my other parishes it was so loud and yacky, this would not have been possible.
 
Our choir is the biggest culprit. They act as if it is just a social club for them.
 
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mjdonnelly:
Our choir is the biggest culprit. They act as if it is just a social club for them.
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I think that’s probably the reason people feel comfortable visiting since the choir is warming up, practicing songs, moving their mikes around, etc. Even if everyone ceased conversation there would still be quite a bit of noise. I’m still going to keep quiet but I do understand why people feel free to chat.

Lisa N
 
This also drives me crazy! If I see someone I know I wave or
smile at them. If they start a conversation I whisper “Let’s talk
outside”. I do notice that some of the people doing it are very
nice people who are very devoted to the faith and our parish.
Somewhere along the way things changed. This never happened
when I was a kid. 😦
 
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Kevirish01:
I have been seeing the word “Physically” present describing Christ’s Real Presence too. Technically speaking, this is not correct. The Magisterium (teaching office of the Church) has never used this word when describing Christ’s Presence in the Sacred Species. If anyone can find a document, I would love to see it.
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Kevirish,

I did a little more research and came up with a document that supports a physical presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

From MYSTERIUM FIDEI (ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI
ON THE HOLY EUCHARIST) SEPTEMBER 3, 1965

…As a result of transubstantiation, the species of bread and wine undoubtedly take on a new signification and a new finality, for they are no longer ordinary bread and wine but instead a sign of something sacred and a sign of spiritual food; but they take on this new signification, this new finality, precisely because they contain a new “reality” which we can rightly call ontological. For what now lies beneath the aforementioned species is not what was there before, but something completely different; and not just in the estimation of Church belief but in reality, since once the substance or nature of the bread and wine has been changed into the body and blood of Christ, nothing remains of the bread and the wine except for the species—beneath which Christ is present whole and entire in His physical “reality,” corporeally present, although not in the manner in which bodies are in a place.

To me, the Holy Father seems to be indicating that Christ is physically present in the Eucharist. I don’t mean to dwell on this, but I think it’s an important subject. Even though Jesus’ presence is not a typically bodily presence, He still is physically present in the Eucharist, isn’t He?

I’d love to hear other opinions on this.

God Bless,
Gary
 
Petertherock, I call no one a bum, nor do I look down on others, I simply stated that I think it is sad that someone would not know the difference between the Real Presence and someone else. I know Jesus is present in others (although He is harder to find in some than in others).

for Lisa, yes, it does make a difference even if Jesus isn’t present in the tabernacle, I think that may be part of the problem, some Parishes act that way because no one ever taught them to dispose themselves in advance. It is a good idea to pray silently, or to read the readings and the Gospel in advance of the Mass from the Missal, I understand if no one ever told you, I am not looking down on you or anyone, simply answering the question, (I believe YOU understand that).

The Real Presence is HIM, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. He is the Blessed Sacrament, Holy Communion is receiving HIM. That is why we kneel, genuflect or bow to HIM, and yes, we are to either genuflect to Him in the tabernacle, both before and after Mass, He doesn’t go away after Mass. (you could always geneflect right there in your pew if you are afraid of tripping someone, but I know when I was growing up everyone genuflected and so we all were careful to not trip one another and did expect it and so no one did trip.)

(now in your circumstance Lisa, they apparently cannot keep a tabernacle there, so that is why that is done that way I guess, however, a regular parish does have a tabernacle and by the way, it is suppose to be in a prominant place in the Church).

Even some Shrines, Cathedral’s, and Parishes have smaller Chapel’s where they sometimes say daily Mass, a good priest once told me that as long as Jesus is present in the building anywhere that it is alright to geneflect before entering your pew. It is a sign of reverance, just one of the ways that we honor His Real Presence. Others have said that you don’t need to genuflect when He isn’t present in the tabernacle when you enter, I guess it is in this case, up to the individual. (If anyone knows otherwise, please let me know.) Thank you.
 
I believe there is a time and a place for socilaizing. Even before and after Mass. However, I don’t believe that time and place is where the Blessed Sacrament is. If people want to go out in the Nathex of my church and talk that is good. But carrying on a conversation where people are trying to pray is just downright rude in my opinion.

The issue with the choire is a different story. If you are going to have a choire, they have to have a place to warm up before Mass. In most churches the only place for them to warm up is in the Church itself.

Whether you want to realize this or not the Mass is a community celebration. Therefore, there are some aspects of the community celebration that are going to involve talking. If you want complete silence I recommend you do what Jesus told us to do and go to your room, close your door, and pray. Singing of songs is a part of the Mass and it is a very important part of the Mass. Warming up before the Mass is very important for the people who are singing and I see nothing wrong with this. I have never had a problem praying before Mass even with the choire warming up.
 
I’m all for the church being quiet,especially during the actual service.In addition,i’m astonished by the way some people don’t seem to realize nowadays that they should genuflect when crossing from one side of the church to the other and thereby passing the Tabernacle,never mind when they are entering a pew.

However,there is another side to that coin.I struggle to be charitable to people who will turn round and glare and embarrass someone who has accidentally dropped something.Later,that same twerp turns up late for the service and disturbs my concentration.Mind you,the facial expression gave me the feeling she thought she merited 500 lashes.
I read an article in a catholic newspaper by a man who told of being ticked off by another parishioner for bringing his children to Mass at all.I think it was a weekday Mass.The younger child,a girl of about 2 or 3years old,was having trouble sitting still and came to grief,leaving her rather distressed.Her mood changed completely when,at the Sign of Peace,the priest came off the Altar and handed her a flower.You would have thought she had just won the National Lottery.If you want 13 and 14 year olds to come to Mass,then you need to be tolerant and welcoming with them when they are 3&4 years old.I realize that churches are not open all day like they were when i was a boy,but some have CCTV
My present parish is open all day.During Lent and the Month of the Holy Souls,we don’t close till after the 7.30pm service is over.
Yet,that is still early compared to the 1950’s.I remember a Parish Priest reading the riot act about the fact he had found young children in the church at 10.30pm on a Saturday night.He wanted to know where their parents were.
When you can get a church which is open outside of Mass Times
that,in my opinion,is a good opportunity to take a 3year old for a walk round the place.You can talk to them at a time when there are not many people around to disturb and explaining to them that they go into a church to pray and they must keep reasonably quiet.
 
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Kevirish01:
Hello all and a Godly day to you.

There are several clarifications which need to be made from what I have read on this thread (I hope some of you will check this thread today).

First, chatting/speaking/talking out loud in the parish-church:

The USCCB released a document called “The Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Eucharist” (c 2001) which is a Q&A about the Blessed Sacrament. It states under question #9: “It is appropriate for the assembly to greet each other in the gathering space of the church (that is the vestibule or narthex) because of the presence of Christ in the tabernacle,{notice it does not say “bread”–Kev} but it is not appropriate to speak in loud or boisterous tones in the body of the church (that is, the nave) because of the presence of Christ in the tabernacle.”

(See it here: usccb.org/publishing/5-434Q8-11.pdf )

Second to Petertherock, I respectfully ask you to refer to your catechism (paragraph 1373) which shows how Jesus is present to us in many ways: “Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us,” is present in many ways to his Church:in his word, in his Church’s prayer, "where two or three are gathered in my name,"in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned,199 in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But “he is present . . . most especially in the Eucharistic species.”

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt1art3.htm#iii

He is not, not, not present in the same way in humans. I respectfully ask you to cite a magisterial document which supports this statement, “Yes, that person you look down on for talking in mass is Jesus in the flesh.” Which document actually uses those words ‘in the flesh’ when speaking about Jesus being in human beings? (again, I ask respectfully—no intention of “starting a fight”)

We are all sinners (1 John 1:8) and as we all know Jesus had NO sin within him (Heb 4:15). We are striving to be Christ-like by participating in his Divinity (1 John 3:2, 2 Peter 1:4).

Jesus is sacramentally, really, and concretely----Body, Blood, Soul, and Dvinity-----present in the Sacred Species of the Host and Precious Blood. “Bread” and “wine” are no longer there (or, the real ‘absence’). This is why we genuflect towards the tabernacle before entering the pew at Church. This is why we Adore and worship Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist at Benediction, Adoration, Exposition, and Processions (see CCC 1378) and not each other. The focus is supposed to be on him, not us.

I have been seeing the word “Physically” present describing Christ’s Real Presence too. Technically speaking, this is not correct. The Magisterium (teaching office of the Church) has never used this word when describing Christ’s Presence in the Sacred Species. If anyone can find a document, I would love to see it.

I think this was a great thread. With the documents like Ecclesia de Eucharistia and Mane Nobiscum Domine coming from the Holy See, it is easy to tell Rome is very concerned about reverence, worship, and right BELIEF due to Our Lord in the Eucharist.

The October Synod will be a great thing for Holy Mother Church.

God bless you all.
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Kev - just wanted to thank you for backing up your statements with references to doctrines, scripture, etc. This is something we should all be doing, as opposed to speaking our opinion. What does the church say? All of us have preconceived notions and even things taught to us that may not be correct. When we have a thought, the best thing to do is to back it up with something from the Church to prove our point. This means we have to study many documents to know where to go. Maybe we start with some of those named in this post.
 
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