A Harvard neurosurgeon's evidence for life after death

[Linux]

Why not try refuting the points I have made?

I am not aware that you have made any points.

…ohhhhhh! You mean the accusation that anybody who disagrees with you that Nde’s are evidence of a literal experience of the after life has a Naturalist agenda?

I’m sorry, you are going to have to do better than that to peak the interest of my writing hand.

I actually made a fatal argument a while back on this thread already that you have not addressed. The problem with your whole thesis (if it can be called that at all) is its epistemological flaws which prevents us from agreeing with you.

 

[Al_Moritz]

I…ohhhhhh! You mean the accusation that anybody who disagrees with you that Nde’s are evidence of a literal experience of the after life has a Naturalist agenda?

Yeah, i think that’s the real problem here – even when we’re professed theists!

 

[debgab]

I only know a little about this neurosurgeon’s case/book.
Has anyone seen the TV program called “I Survived Beyond and Back”? It features accounts of different people that have been declared clinically dead, and their experience.
A few went to what they thought was hell (for a poster that said they’d never heard of anyone going there) but most had a loving and enlightening experience that has since changed their lives afterwards. Some changed their paths in their lives by helping other’s, some wrote about their experience and other’s became more loving people; having a belief in the afterlife where they didn’t before.
I think God can allow these so called NDE’s to happen to bring about change in the life of a person.
Maybe most people don’t have NDE’s, but maybe some are “allowed” this to either turn their lives around or bring them comfort. Many of the people on the show suffer very sudden events with no warning. Either an accident or illness that just comes “out of the blue”. It would be a gift from God to receive a special grace like some of these experiences appear to be to me, for having to suffer a life threatening trauma in a sudden and unexpected fashion.

Debbie

 

[tonyrey]

am not aware that you have made any points.

Probably because they don’t fit into your scheme of things. I list them for your benefit:

1. Scientists are not qualified to pontificate on what persons experience subjectively - either before or after death - or whether their experiences correspond to physical reality.
2. Only a person who has direct insight into other persons’ minds is justified in making decisions about the validity of their experience of NDEs.
3. There is no valid reason to believe the mind is inactive (or non-existent) when the brain is comatose.
4. There is far more to subjective experience than the memory yet even the inability to recall events is not evidence that memory is an entirely physical process.
5. Materialists reject all accounts of NDEs as illusions on principle because such experiences don’t fit into their arbitrary scheme of things.
6. Many Christians claim to believe in a loving Father yet in practice they tend to be sceptical about any scientifically inexplicable event - largely because of the pernicious effects of living in a materialistic society where neuroscience is thought to explain most, if not all, mental activity.
7. A God who rarely intervenes is not to be found in the teaching of Jesus.
8. Our experiences are conditioned by cultural and personal expectations but it does not follow that they are caused by them.
9. Individuals who experience NDEs don’t always see what they wanted or expected to see.
10. Scientists have lost their jobs simply because they have expressed views which do not fit into the scientific Establishment’s scheme of things.
11. The term “natural” has never been clearly defined.
12. Many people are both literally and metaphorically dispirited because they live in a literally and metaphorically soul-destroying, “natural” (materialistic) environment.
13. Faith (in anything) without a rational basis easily degenerates into either fanaticism or scepticism.
14. Our subjective experiences are our primary evidence for everything.
15. The existence of an independent mind does not necessarily entail an afterlife.
16. From a philosophical point of view there is no way of being absolutely sure about what occurs after death.
17. The vast majority of human beings have believed, do believe and will continue to believe that our minds are not dependent on our brains for the simple reason that we are rational beings who have free will and are responsible for our behaviour - which would not be the case if our thoughts, choices, actions, decisions and conclusions were determined by physical events. Further evidence is provided by legal systems throughout the world…
18. It is not only irrational to restrict oneself to the world of sense data it also deprives life of all value, purpose and meaning. Materialism is pernicious because it makes people think life is not worth living especially when they are faced with hardship and suffering. The most important things in life are intangible…
19. All empirically-based, naturalistic explanations presuppose the validity of reason which is undermined if reasoning is the result of processes which lack insight and understanding.
20. No one has explained how Dr Alexander was conscious when his neocortex was inactive.
21. To reject an experience outright because it cannot be p(name removed by moderator)ointed in time or space presupposes that all events are restricted to scientific, i.e physical, categories.

22.The demise of logical positivism was due to the realisation that the verifiability principle
cannot be verified by sense perceptions.

1. Our personal experiences are the foundation of all our knowledge.
2. We infer the existence of physical objects and events from our intangible perceptions.
3. It is irrational to reject intangible reality on principle.
4. The similarity of some NDEs with experiences caused by drugs is an insufficient reason for rejecting their authenticity.
5. Intangible facts remain facts even if they don’t correspond to one’s preconceived notions of reality.
6. The power of hypnosis is further evidence that the mind transcends brain activity.

…ohhhhhh! You mean the accusation that anybody who disagrees with you that Nde’s are evidence of a literal experience of the after life has a Naturalist agenda?

False generalisation.

I made a fatal argument a while back on this thread already that you have not addressed.

Please state it so that your assertion can be verified.

The problem with your whole thesis (if it can be called that at all) is its epistemological flaws which prevents us from agreeing with you.

Please present specific examples so that your assertion can be verified.

 

[Evania]

I have no problem explaining how knowledge (scientific or otherwise) can be illogical. To be totally honest, what I am having a problem with, is deciding whether you are worth the effort, or perhaps what I am really concerned about is whether I am capable of the effort. There is such a gap between the two of us that I am afraid that no amount of patient explanation on my part will have any effect in lessening that divide. You have chosen that which you are comfortable believing, and no matter how badly I may want to, or how hard I may try, there is nothing that I can do to change that. I can accept this, but in truth, it saddens me. I want so much for you to be able to see the world as I see it. To understand men, and God, and suffering, and sorrow, and life, and death in the way that I do. For life is a very precious thing, and I would like so very much for you to see and understand that, but I don’t think that I am capable of making you see it, and for that I am sorry. There are some things, like the hearts of men, that I simply cannot change.

So I will graciously cede the victory to you, and quietly fade back into the silence from which I came. I am far more comfortable there. Perhaps in the end you will find greater peace in your world, then I will in mine. You deserve at least that. As for me, I will leave you to your victory, and I will not bother you again.

What an arrogant statement, wishing people could be more like you. :bowdown:

 

[tonyrey]

I only know a little about this neurosurgeon’s case/book.
Has anyone seen the TV program called “I Survived Beyond and Back”? It features accounts of different people that have been declared clinically dead, and their experience.
A few went to what they thought was hell (for a poster that said they’d never heard of anyone going there) but most had a loving and enlightening experience that has since changed their lives afterwards. Some changed their paths in their lives by helping other’s, some wrote about their experience and other’s became more loving people; having a belief in the afterlife where they didn’t before.
I think God can allow these so called NDE’s to happen to bring about change in the life of a person.
Maybe most people don’t have NDE’s, but maybe some are “allowed” this to either turn their lives around or bring them comfort. Many of the people on the show suffer very sudden events with no warning. Either an accident or illness that just comes “out of the blue”. It would be a gift from God to receive a special grace like some of these experiences appear to be to me, for having to suffer a life threatening trauma in a sudden and unexpected fashion.

Debbie

It is ironic how some Christians reject such experiences on “scientific” principles.

 

[tonyrey]

What an arrogant statement, wishing people could be more like you. :bowdown:

It’s strange how evidence for NDE’s arouses antagonism and hostility on the part of both Christians and non-believers. For some reason they cannot discuss the subject objectively…

 

[Evania]

Agreed

 

[Al_Moritz]

It is ironic how some Christians reject such experiences on “scientific” principles.

You misunderstand. This has nothing to do with “scientific principles”, but with power of evidence.

I do believe in an immaterial soul, but on levels of philosophical evidence that I deem far more compelling than NDE experiences.

 

[Al_Moritz]

It’s strange how evidence for NDE’s arouses antagonism and hostility on the part of both Christians and non-believers. For some reason they cannot discuss the subject objectively…

I am afraid it is you who lacks objectivity in your views on this issue. This has, at least implicitly, been pointed out to you by several posters here.

 

[debgab]

The sentiment I’m getting from this thread is that there is no harm in digging deeper on this subject, and that the current dialogue could be altered with a more meaningful presentation of ideas. Also to cite examples from other (experts) who hold different and/or opposing views adding to the other doctor’s/scientists views/opinions originally mentioned at the beginning of this thread.
And my take on the subject of NDE"s is that with the scores of people that have had this experience, and especially those whose experience had results of a positive change in their lives, and also corroborating evidence from medical personnel involved with these cases, we could benefit with a more information based discussion and also allow hearing of personal accounts.
Debbie

 

[Aloysium]

We infer the existence of physical objects and events from our intangible perceptions.

this comment caught my attention and i wanted to add some thoughts:

i do not infer the existence of the the screen in front of me
its existence is part of my visual experience
i can touch it, thereby providing me with additional contact that is of a different nature
cognitively, it comes together as a whole,
of which i can isolate certain details

i believe that i am connecting with the screen itself
i am not inferring its existence
its being is contained within the experience i am having in this moment

now the experience involves cognitive processes
i understand these words, i am thinking about the screen

these perceptual and cognitive events
are related to brain functioning
a stroke here, no vision;
there, i wouldn’t derive meaning from these squiggles

so “within”(?) the experience is my nervous system

this experience arises as a whole
from the relationship that i am having
with the screen and ultimately with the reader

there is a oneness with the world through these processes
which i explain as stemming from our spiritual nature
such that our being connects with the being of what is around us

human existence itself is very simple but at the same time very complex and
although we can know quite a bit about it, it remains ultimately a mystery

events that put a stress on the nervous system: fasting, sensory deprivation, prolonged meditation/prayer, drugs, trauma, inflammations, etc
cause it to malfunction
in these cases, some of what happens might be delirium - distorted perceptions/ideas etc

it is my belief that what can also happen is that in the absence of normal cortical functioning,
one’s spiritual soul can come to realize itself,
its eternal nature and connection to our Creator

i don’t see it so much in terms of evidence of life after death
as it is a realization of one’s eternal nature

 

[cornbread_r2]

tonyrey:

On second thought… Even if you should stumble upon a reasonable objection to my argument, I won’t be responding to it. I simply don’t have the time to both knock down your posse of strawmen and check to make sure you haven’t edited my posts in some substantive way when you quote them back. (Compare my original post #157 with your reproduction of it in post #159.) In addition, if I should happen to post to a thread in the future in which you are participating, don’t be surprised or complain that I’m not addressing your contributions. If anyone else wants to know why I’m ignoring you, I’ll refer them back to this thread.

 

[Evania]

tonyrey:

On second thought… Even if you should stumble upon a reasonable objection to my argument, I won’t be responding to it. I simply don’t have the time to both knock down your posse of strawmen and check to make sure you haven’t edited my posts in some substantive way when you quote them back. (Compare my original post #157 with your reproduction of it in post #159.) In addition, if I should happen to post to a thread in the future in which you are participating, don’t be surprised or complain that I’m not addressing your contributions. If anyone else wants to know why I’m ignoring you, I’ll refer them back to this thread.

C’mon now…This is a Catholic Answers Forum. We should be charitable, no?

 

[tonyrey]

I am afraid it is you who lacks objectivity in your views on this issue. This has, at least implicitly, been pointed out to you by several posters here.

To fail to produce evidence of such an assertion is to demonstrate that it is worthless…

 

[tonyrey]

tonyrey:

On second thought… Even if you should stumble upon a reasonable objection to my argument, I won’t be responding to it. I simply don’t have the time to both knock down your posse of strawmen and check to make sure you haven’t edited my posts in some substantive way when you quote them back. (Compare my original post #157 with your reproduction of it in post #159.) In addition, if I should happen to post to a thread in the future in which you are participating, don’t be surprised or complain that I’m not addressing your contributions. If anyone else wants to know why I’m ignoring you, I’ll refer them back to this thread.

Individuals who make **unsubstantiated **assertions about others are merely revealing their weakness.

 

[tonyrey]

C’mon now…This is a Catholic Answers Forum. We should be charitable, no?

“should” is the key word!

 

[tonyrey]

You misunderstand. This has nothing to do with “scientific principles”, but with power of evidence.

I do believe in an immaterial soul, but on levels of philosophical evidence that I deem far more compelling than NDE experiences.

Your statement is based on the false assumption that I regard NDE experiences as compelling.

 

[tonyrey]

The sentiment I’m getting from this thread is that there is no harm in digging deeper on this subject, and that the current dialogue could be altered with a more meaningful presentation of ideas. Also to cite examples from other (experts) who hold different and/or opposing views adding to the other doctor’s/scientists views/opinions originally mentioned at the beginning of this thread.
And my take on the subject of NDE"s is that with the scores of people that have had this experience, and especially those whose experience had results of a positive change in their lives, and also corroborating evidence from medical personnel involved with these cases, we could benefit with a more information based discussion and also allow hearing of personal accounts.
Debbie

I agree wholeheartedly!

 

[tonyrey]

this comment caught my attention and i wanted to add some thoughts:

i do not infer the existence of the the screen in front of me
its existence is part of my visual experience
i can touch it, thereby providing me with additional contact that is of a different nature
cognitively, it comes together as a whole,
of which i can isolate certain details

i believe that i am connecting with the screen itself
i am not inferring its existence
its being is contained within the experience i am having in this moment

now the experience involves cognitive processes
i understand these words, i am thinking about the screen

these perceptual and cognitive events
are related to brain functioning
a stroke here, no vision;
there, i wouldn’t derive meaning from these squiggles

so “within”(?) the experience is my nervous system

this experience arises as a whole
from the relationship that i am having
with the screen and ultimately with the reader

there is a oneness with the world through these processes
which i explain as stemming from our spiritual nature
such that our being connects with the being of what is around us

human existence itself is very simple but at the same time very complex and
although we can know quite a bit about it, it remains ultimately a mystery

events that put a stress on the nervous system: fasting, sensory deprivation, prolonged meditation/prayer, drugs, trauma, inflammations, etc
cause it to malfunction
in these cases, some of what happens might be delirium - distorted perceptions/ideas etc

it is my belief that what can also happen is that in the absence of normal cortical functioning,
one’s spiritual soul can come to realize itself,
its eternal nature and connection to our Creator

i don’t see it so much in terms of evidence of life after death
as it is a realization of one’s eternal nature

:thumbsup:Thank you for your refreshingly original post! I agree that distorted ideas and perceptions may be caused by stress on the nervous system but to attribute all unusual experiences to physical causes is to reveal an inability to think beyond the scientific box…