A Historical Dare to Protestants

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**Ummmm . . . right.:rolleyes: **

Anyway, it’s a derogatory term and he used it for that purpose. **That is not only uncharitable - it’s against **the forum rules.

It would be the same if I went around referring to Protestants as "infidels" becuase they reject certain teachings of Christ. That would be uncharitable and immature. It would also get me kicked off this forum.

**PS - You never answered my question. **
Why do you call yourself Catholic Daddy if you’re clearly not Catholic.
I did answer it.
 
The Catholic Church is not “Roman”. The Latin Rite did not emerge for centuries.

No, which is why Iggie wrote in Gk, not Latin. the Antiochan Church is much older, and that is why there are Divine Liturgies in Syriac and Gk much older than the Latin.

It is my prayer that ecumenism, tolerance, and blessing will be extended to the Catholic Church that is non-Roman. Once that is accomplished, then perhaps unity can really take root! 👍
What are you trying to say? The only Catholic Church that is located in Rome is NOT the same Catholic Church that was established in 33AD?
 
Benjamin8o8;:
You must learn about the History of the Bible.[/qutoe]

Then you need to learn the history of early Christianity.

Orthodox Christianity.

What do you do when the leader of a church teaches doctrine and practices that are in conflict with the traditional teachings and practices of that church? Which is what the pope was doing.

jonathon
Lie! Look at the history when the books of the Bible were compiled together and when Orthodox Christianity broke of the Roman Catholic Church.
 
Timelines can be, and in the cited instance, are theologically biased.

Start with
33 AD: The church in Ethiopia was founded
52 AD: The church in Kerala was established
60 AD: The church in Lhassa was established.
70 AD(?) The church in what is now Tokyo was established.

And continue with the unsettling history of Christianity in Asia prior to the Fifteenth Century.

Just be sure to segregate out the history of 基督教, 天主教, and 景教. As a general rule of thumb, you want to study the latter, not the former.

On second thoughts, maybe the difference between 上帝, 天主, and 景教 covers it all.

jonathon
Well I am following the Church that got established in 33AD in Jerusalem. You are following a church that is a off-shoot from that Church, or an off-shoot from an off-shoot from that Church or maybe even worse, you started your own church:eek:
 
Both what books are to be included in the Bible, and when that Bible was compiled, literally depends upon which organization one is talking about.

Nicea had no effect on 景教. Whilst the absence of evidence is not proof, the the surviving manuscripts appear to be based upon a Canon other than that used by Catholic, or Orthodox Christianity. Hopefully, more funeral scrolls will be found, that have a more complete record of both the Scriptures, and commentaries from their viewpoint. (If, as some evidence suggest, 神道 is a descendant of Early Christianity, then their early manuscripts are also needed — especially if they discuss 景教.)

jonathon
Then who did have effect on them? The Babtist? Calvinist?, JW?Mormoms? New Age? Protestants?..I don`t know what you are trying to say.
 
That is a funny way of looking at things considering history is nothing more than a story passed down from generation after generation. As you stated people lie. Who do you think wrote history? Think about it
They wrote about history… The facts of history are still facts… Things that happened still happened even if they are falsley reported by others.

SD
 
They wrote about history… The facts of history are still facts… Things that happened still happened even if they are falsley reported by others.

SD
Historical facts can and are twisted both in Church History and secular history.
 
Historical facts can and are twisted both in Church History and secular history.
are you trying to say your church predates the Catholic Church? Also, proove what else you are trying to say.
 
You are probably the first person who has ruffled my feathers! First of all if you insist on quoting scripture quote it in context. Jesus said and I do correcty quote: Matt 18:15-19 " Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his faults between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained a brother.But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two witnesses every word may be established. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to listen to the church,let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector…Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth…For where two or three are gathered in my name,I am in the midst of them.
Yes - let’s read it in context.**

What was Jesus teaching them in Matthew 18:15-19?
He was teaching them about the authority of the Church. Remember - he didn’t say that “one or two more” could make the decision of excommunication. He said, "tell it to the church
***.** But if he refuses even to listen to the church,let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."*

The Church has the final say because he gave the Church all earthly Authority.
 
Yes - let’s** read it in context.

What was Jesus teaching them in Matthew 18:15-19?
He was teaching them about the authority of the Church. Remember - he didn’t say that “one or two more” could make the decision of excommunication. He said, "tell it to the church***.*** But if he refuses even to listen to the church,let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."

The Church
has the final say because he gave the Church all earthly Authority.
Happy Sabbath!

“The Church” is not referring to a specific denomination, such as “Catholic” nor any other Protestant denomination. But as far as “church authority” goes, their only authority is/can be the Holy Bible. The Bible determines the church’s position on all matters of faith. “The Church” means all Christians; not just “Catholics.”

Every single cult that I have discussed with has been able to produce “history” to “show” how they were “first” or “best” or “right.” I am not calling the Catholic Church a cult, just pointing out that it is impossible to expect the general public to go strictly by history to “prove” whatever you are trying to prove here.
 
I am very sorry for the tardiness of my reply but I was waiting to see if you would claim the ability to walk on water. Who are you to judge what is or is not close to Jesus’ heart? I follow the Bible AS I KNOW IT! just like you follow your Bible AS YOU KNOW IT. What amazes me is that you claim to follow the true relgion yet you forget "judge not lest you be judged!
That’s the very problem I’m talking about. You see the Bible AS YOU KNOW IT. The Protestant down the street sees it as HE knows it and starts a Church with a belief system as HE knows it. Same with the guy accross town and so on and so on and so on.

Pretty soon, you have what we have now - thousands of differing Protestant belief systems. This is not what Jesus wanted and I’ll show you that from scripture.

On the night before he was crucified, Jesus prayed for the UNITY of his Church.
John 17:20-23:

***"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, *so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. **
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me."
This is why Jesus refers to his “church” in Matthew. He never speaks of his “churches”.

There is no need to get angry with me - I’m not being judgemental. I’m merely showing you the Catholic position.
 
‘Catholic’ just meant ‘universal’. The word has been hijacked. Of course they were ‘catholic’. Every saved person on and off the planet was (and still is today) part of the universal (‘catholic’) church! It is why the Apostles’ Creed says “I believe in the Holy (not ‘Roman’) Catholic Church”.
Sorry, pal. That doesn’t wash.
You cannot be part of the Catholic Church when you don’t accept her.

What do you think the Protestant Rebellion (Reformation) was all about? Nothing was “reformed” - new ideas and new beliefs were formed. New churches with new belief systems were formed. That’s not the Universal Christian Church. It’s tens of thousands of break-off churches with their own sets of beliefs.
 
And when there is a constant, repeated pattern of such acts?
Such as the constant, repeated acts of sexual molestation from Protestant ministers that dwarf the priest sex scandal? Like the repeated acts of barbarism towards Catholic over the centuries? I wouldn’t hold that against ANY denomination but some of you will hold that against the Catholic Church. Believe me - there’s enough blame for wrongdoing on all sides. History shows us that.
Is this an objection to the specific term, or the practice of requesting people who want to know more about Christ, to obtain “Christian Counselling”?
No. Simply that it is a “tradition of men”, which is usually abhorrent to most Protestants.
That is an aspect of Reformed Christianity. (And, in an ironic twist, Restoration Christianity rejects the concept, but not the practice.)
At issue are:
  • What constitutes baptism;
  • What is the meaning of baptism;
Several conflicting ideas are present in Scripture. Tradition is of equally little use, in determining exactly what Jesus,and the disciples meant by “baptism”.
Wrong.
Ezekiel 36:25, John 3:5-7, Acts, 3:28, 1 Peter 3:20-21 ALL show us the necessity and the regenerative aspect of baptism.

The data suggests that this started in the First Century.
The issue here is whether it is a literal, spiritual, or metaphysical change that occurs.
There is no issue - it did start in the first century - when Jesus foretold the Eucharist (John 6:31-71) and instituted it at the Last Supper. Paul reaffirms this belief in 1 Cor. 11:20-30.
Depending upon what is meant by those terms, with each and every word individually defined, and then the individual phrases defined, this could be anything from a rejection of traditional Catholic Dogma, to complete acceptance,and adherence of traditional Catholic Dogma.
jonathon
Nope. It depends on which of the thousands of bickering Protestant denominations considers it to mean. Being saved by “Accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior” has no place in Catholic theology. It has no place in Scripture or Tradition.
 
Sorry Bro, but A) That goes against the RCC’s official position on other Christian churches and B) that is definitely not what Jesus had in mind and C) The fruit of evangelicals is plentiful and points the the hand of God on them.
**??? **
What are you talking about?
**What is the Catholic Church’s “official position”? **
What did Jesus “have in mind”?
Please enlighten me.
 
Happy Sabbath!

“The Church” is not referring to a specific denomination, such as “Catholic” nor any other Protestant denomination. But as far as “church authority” goes, their only authority is/can be the Holy Bible. The Bible determines the church’s position on all matters of faith. “The Church” means all Christians; not just “Catholics.”

Every single cult that I have discussed with has been able to produce “history” to “show” how they were “first” or “best” or “right.” I am not calling the Catholic Church a cult, just pointing out that it is impossible to expect the general public to go strictly by history to “prove” whatever you are trying to prove here.
Mornin’!
**Can you show me - in the Bible - where it says that the Bible is the final authority? **
Because MY Bible says that the Church is the final authority.
 
Those citations are rampant throughout the Augsburg Confession and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession. I suggest you read them.

Also, I suggest you take information regarding Lutheran faith and tradition from sources friendly to the tradition-- rather than drinking the bathwater of Roman polemicists. I choose not to learn of Roman theology and practice from the Lutheran polemicists, because it is a poor way of putting your neighbor in the best possible light. You might want to take that under advisement.

One quick ammendment-- there is no “Lutheran doctrine of birth control.”
The false theory which Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin propounded with regard to justification is intimately connected with their views of the original state of man, and the consequences of his fall into sin; that is to say, they denied the difference between the natural and the supernatural sanctity and justice of man in his original condition, and explained the perfection which is attributed to the first man as a natural good and an essential part of his human nature, whereas this perfection is in reality something suprnatural.

With this fundamental error they combined the denial of free will to man, by asserting that all human action is the result of an absolute necessity, “a deed of God.” According to this doctrine, original sin is not the loss of of the supernatural gift of grace, but a horrid corruption of man’s nature, a wicked desire and inclination to sin. In some places Calvin calls original sin “an annihilation of God’s image in man;” in other places, “a horrid disfiguring of it.” Zwingli considers it as a natural dispostion to sin, as an evil from which other sins spring up as branches on a tree.

This condition of interior corruption, according to Protestant views, contiues to exist even after justification; for this is only a declaration of justice, an exterior imputation of the merits of Christ, whose justice is in virtue of special faith, the so-called “fides specialis,” imputed instrumentally to the sinner without any interior change or sanctification of man taking place. The “fides specialis” is nothing more than the firm confidence possessed by the sinner that God will not, for the sake of the merits of Christ, impute his sins to him. When, therefore, Protestants say that faith alone justifies (sola fides justificat), they understand by fides neither the dead faith nor the faith working by love . The fides specialis has nothing to do with faith in its proper sense.

A consequence of this doctrine is the supposition that man can have the absolute certainty of the acquired justification, which justification he can never lose; another consequence is, the assertion that justice is equal to all men, being capable neither of increase nor of decrease.

According to Luther, the loss of justification can only result from unbelief, - that is, from the want of fides specialis. Calvin, however asserts that a man who is once justified is absolutely certain of his salvation, and can never again lose the special justifying faith.

This view of the Genevan reformer is but a corollary of his doctrine of absolute predestination, according to which those predestined to life eternal receive faith and justification, whereas the reprobate never participate in the grace of justification.

Another consequence of this erroneous theory of justification is the rejection of the veneration of the saints, since, according to this system, no interior and true sanctification takes place, from which it follows that the sinner cannot acquire a dispostion for justification.

Connected with the denial of free will and the doctrine of imputed justice is the teaching of these so-called reformers on good works. At first they denied the possibility of good works; but gradually they softened down the harshness of a doctrine so repugnant to every Christian feeling, and admitted the possibility of a certain fulfillment of the law. On the other hand, they strenuously denied that good works are necessary to salvation, or that it is the duty of the justified to fulfill the law; thus setting forth a formal contradistinction between the law and gospel.

When, at a later period, Melanchthon and the Protestant theologians, in a reply to various controversies that had arisen speak of the use of good works to the justified, they still regard them as matters of indifference in respect to the justification and sanctification of men.

Te rejection of the dogma of purgatory, of prayer and of other good works for the dead, of indulgences, and the denial of the distinction betwen mortal and venial sin, were but necessary conclusions arising from the Protestant doctrine of justification.

According to this doctrine, also, the sacraments could not be instruments of imparting grace and justice. Luther considers them only signs of the divine promise of grace, a means of confirming the faith of the recipient in the remission of his sins.

cont.
 
Mornin’!
Can you show me - in the Bible
- where it says that the Bible is the final authority?
Because MY Bible says that the Church is the final authority.
LOL…well; you just used YOUR BIBLE to “prove” that!! 👍
 
Zwingli and Socinus considered them as “a sign by which the members of the Christian creed can be recognized.” Calvin teaches that the sacraments are outward signs with which an interior efficacy of the Holy Spirit is connected.

Luther and Zwingli make the efficacy of the sacraments depend on the belief of the recipient in the divine promises. Calvin, on the other hand considers this efficacy dependent on predestination, so that the non-believer, that is the reprobate, receives only the outward sign, and for such the administration of the sacraments is but an empty ceremony.

Of the seven sacraments, Luther adopted, at least in the beginning, three; Zwingli and Calvin, only two.

Baptism, according to the so-called reformers, had no sin destroying power, which the “fides specialis” alone possesses, but is either a sealing of faith, or a sign by which, as Zwingli thinks, “one is enlisted into a Christian life.” The baptism of children presented great difficulties to the innovators. The Anabaptists placed them in a most painful position, out of which they tried to get by adducing various though insufficient reasons for the practice.

With regard to the Holy Eucharist, the opinion of one differs from that of the other. They one and all reject the sacrificial character of the sacrament, transubstantiation, the permanent presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist, and the adoration of the same; but Luther teaches that the body of Christ is received in, under and with the bread ("in, sub et cum pane = consubstantiation or impanation). Zwingli holds that the Last Supper is only a memorial of the suffering and death of Christ; while Calvin adopts a virtual presence of Christ and an interior efficacy of grace as connected with reception of the bread and wine, but only for the predestined.

Penance has no real signification in the Protestant systems; and although Luther and Calvin do not altogether reject it, - although, in fact, they desired to retain the special confession of sins, - they have another reason for it than that of a belief in the necessity of confession for the remission of such sins as have been committed.

All these opinions were contradictory to the universal doctrine that had been taught by the Church in all ages. To give them a plausible foundation, on which the so-called reformers proposed to establish the truth of their new system, and to be able to demonstrate it, they propounded a new rule, asserting that the Holy Scripture is the sole source and judge of faith, by means of which man attains to faith by an interior instruction received from God.

From what has been said, it is obvious that Luther and Zwingli, and Calvin had conceived very erroneous notions of what constitutes the Church. The doctrine of justification by faith alone, and the immediate interior instruction given by God to man by means of Holy Writ, necessarily lead to the rejection of the exterior ministry of preaching and of a dogmatical tradition, as well as of a special priesthood, and especially of the necessity of an exterior, a visible church.

It requires but a hasty glance at the history of Protestantism, especially at the manner in which it was introduced, to see clearly that this confused, intricate mingling of truth with falsehood, presented by this view of the Church, is contrary alike to the nature of things and to history.

Although in theory Luther rejected all ecclesiastical authority, he did not hesitate to impose his own subjective opinions as objective ones on others, and to let preachers be inducted into their office (“Lutheran ordination”) by temporal princes as sovereign bishops; neither did he, in his controversy with Sacramentarians, neglect to appeal to the traditions of the Church, to the common teaching of the Fathers.
 
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