A Historical Dare to Protestants

[catholic_daddy]

No, there is no confusion there. Timothy was ordained by Paul as a bishop, and authority was given to him, as to all the bishops, to shepherd the flock. The scriptures are profitable in this task. the task, though, was given to people, not to the book.

This is what you were taught to believe, but it is not the only reason. It is one reason, but some also believe in Him, then forsake Him.

This is Calvanism at it’s best. It is not Aposotlic, though. Jesus ability to keep us from falling is not in question. Those who wish to be kept must hold fast to that whichthey have attained, and lay hold of that which has laid hold of them. If they do not, then they will be like the 50% of the seeds that sprouted, and did not bear fruit.

Its a bummer when Scripture messes with your theology, isn’t it? You can repeat the party line, but you are repeatedly unable to exegete passages like the one I quoted from Romans 8 and tell us what it means if it doesn’t mean the obvious. You are quick to tell us what passages DON’T mean, but you can’t tell us what they DO mean. I run into the same problem with Jehovah’s Witnesses. They can tell me the party line on why Jesus ISN’T God, but they can’t deal with the verses that tell us clearly that He IS. Exegete Romans 8:29-30 for us.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Indeed not! It takes a much more powerful person to allow one that He loves to walk away from Him.

I agree. Those who bite the hand that feeds them are not “lost” or “surprised”. Mortal sin is deliberate/willful. IT is a case of spurning the blood that bought one purposefully. It does not happen by “accident” .

Oh I hear it! It is written in the past tense because it applies to those who have already gone on to their heavenly reward. What has made it a “chain” is twisting the text into present tense, and applying it to those who have not yet completed their glorification. This “chain” has caused many to believe they cannot be lost. It is enough to sink a soul.

Just exegete it, big boy. And I mean THOROUGHLY! We’re waiting with baited breath.

 

[Katrina5]

I would never want to be a part of a sect that would not teach the whole, complete, 100% truth. If they teach some error, how can I trust them? How do I know what teaching is right? How could they ever teach me about moral issues not covered in the Bible? It’s way to risky to go to splintered, divided (and you know St. Paul condemns division among Christians) man-made sects that are a sea of contradictions of doctrines and private interpretations.

It’s much safer to stick with the 2,000-year-old Church founded by Christ which He promised would not fail-- the Catholic Church, founded upon St. Peter and the Apostles. That’s why I am joining the Catholic Church this Easter.

I am so happy to know that you are coming into the fold this Easter! God bless you on your journey. I will keep you inmy prayers.

 

[Katrina5]

Episcopalians in the US and Disciples of Christ might merge. Whilst there is a big gap theologically between the two, they have been shifting closer together.

Unless Rome does an about turn on a number of issues, they aren’t even close to either Episcopalians in the US, or Disciples of Christ. Rome and Traditional Anglicans probably will merge. (Probably the most visible difference is three books in their canon that are ignored by nearly everybody. Switching allegiance from Canterbury to Rome won’t be an issue, for unrelated reasons.) I also suspect that a significant percentage of those within the Anglican Communion, will switch to Rome — especially if they get a prelature of their own.

My guess is that United Church of Christ, Metropolitan Community Church, and Disciples of Christ will merge before Canterbury and Rome reconcile. (You can probably toss United Methodist Church into that “supermerger”.) All four denominations (UCC, MCC, DoC and UMC) are pretty close theologically. Most of what needs to be done is figuring out who gets what power and authority.

I don’t see that happening either. Mormons — well at least the Quorum of Seventy — like their Third Testament too much. (Sometimes I wonder if the only time Mormons read it, is when they are getting ready to hit the mission field.)

They claim to have archaeological proof in Mexico that that really occured. (Problem is, that evidence also supports other theories — theories that fit in much better with prevailing knowledge.)

Something akin to the Reformation was bound to occur. Dissent along the lines of some Protestant theology can be traced back to the Tenth century. (The specific theology of the Ninth century groups is unclear. )

Had Rome not attempted to wield political power, the theological differences that Luther,and the earlier reformers had, could have been resolved.

The major issue with Vatican II, is that in seeking change, it tossed out that which had been the practice.

McDonald’s nearly changed its menu after the changes of Vatican II, because there was no religious justification for inclusion of an item on its menu. Fortunately (?) sales of that item were enough to keep it on the menu. I think it is still on the menu. (I never ate it. The only things I liked at McDonald’s are no longer on the menu.)

jonathon

Thank you for your thoughful responses.
Re: Mormons,
They believe that God The Father walked the earth. (I suppose He could, being that he is God) But the Angel Maroni appeared to Joe Smith and had some golden tablets that were too bright to look at.
If that kind of thing happened today, Joe Smith would
be put in a mental ward. But so would Joan of Arc.
About the boat coming to America with Jesus and the Disciples, that negates his death and resurrection.
They don’t believe that Christ is Divine (God) nor do they believe in the trinity.
The Apostles were busy evangelizing in their own countries when this supposed boat ride occurred. I know faith can move mountains, and Mormons are good, decent people for the most part, but I seriously doubt the boat trip.

 

[Protestant101]

Those to whom we are to listen and obey are those to whom this authority is committed. God’s word is not able to be a final authority, because it lacks qualities needed to wield authority. Making it into something it was never meant to be is a form of idolatry, and causes divisions in the body.

God’s Word is united and so it cannot cause divisions. It is people who cause divisions. The Catholic leadership has caused much division and strife within Christianity - for their version of “unity” is nothing short of submission to the Pope’s authority.

I feel sorry for those who wield authority as truth, rather than truth as authority. That’s really all you are talking about in your last few posts.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

God’s Word is united and so it cannot cause divisions. It is people who cause divisions. The Catholic leadership has caused much division and strife within Christianity - for their version of “unity” is nothing short of submission to the Pope’s authority.

I feel sorry for those who wield authority as truth, rather than truth as authority. That’s really all you are talking about in your last few posts.

Christians cannot be unified if anyone who picks up a bible is permitted to claim that they are led by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus gave his apostles and Church authority.

They passed it on.

 

[nsper7]

God’s Word is united and so it cannot cause divisions. It is people who cause divisions. The Catholic leadership has caused much division and strife within Christianity - for their version of “unity” is nothing short of submission to the Pope’s authority.

I feel sorry for those who wield authority as truth, rather than truth as authority. That’s really all you are talking about in your last few posts.

So that explains why all those thousands of Sola Scriptura Protestants are unified?

 

[catholic_daddy]

No, not a bit. Anyone who wishes to exclude himself from the gifts and call of God can do so, and this will be their fate. His gift and call is immutable, though. If they choose to return to His grace before it is too late, He will be there waiting with open arms.

No, this is not the case. I think you will find that I love dealing with the text! I often do not enjoy how it is twisted by the ignorant…

My question about your goals here is not a “personal attack” but an inquiry.

I never said anything about the RCC (which I consider to be an insulting term) or any Catholics being perfect.

You have misunderstood me, and you have not answered my question.

I came here to learn more about the Catholic faith. How about you?

That was insincere. (Euphemism here for a lie). You make it obvious you’re not here to learn at all. And unfortunately when faced with a clear passage that exposes your error, you resort to attack, and the old faithful copout–“That’s contrary to Apostolic teaching”. Or you think you can escape exegeting (do you even know what that word means?) by accusing something of being ‘Calvinism’ You have no idea how underwhelmed we are with that kind of dribble! It’s threadbare Guanophore, and you embrace a ‘gospel’ of unamazing ‘grace’.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Indeed not! It takes a much more powerful person to allow one that He loves to walk away from Him.

I agree. Those who bite the hand that feeds them are not “lost” or “surprised”. Mortal sin is deliberate/willful. IT is a case of spurning the blood that bought one purposefully. It does not happen by “accident” .

Oh I hear it! It is written in the past tense because it applies to those who have already gone on to their heavenly reward. What has made it a “chain” is twisting the text into present tense, and applying it to those who have not yet completed their glorification. This “chain” has caused many to believe they cannot be lost. It is enough to sink a soul.

Wow. If you want, we can give you a pass on that comment about past tense referring just to people who had already died. Or, you can continue on in that direction. You may want to meditate on the chapter a while first, though. Either way, we are eager to hear how you dissect those verses.

 

[guanophore]

Its a bummer when Scripture messes with your theology, isn’t it?

You are missing my point, not daddy’s boy. Scripture cannot “mess” with my theology because they both came from the same Source. The NT was written by Catholics. All of it represents Catholic belief and practice.

You can repeat the party line, but you are repeatedly unable to exegete passages like the one I quoted from Romans 8 and tell us what it means if it doesn’t mean the obvious.

My understanding of the passage may be different because I am reading it from the point of view of those who wrote it. You are reading it from the point of view of those who separated from the Apostolic Tradition 500 years ago. Most of the modern Protestants don’t even read the Early Curch FAthers. And if they do, they don’t recognize that Church founded by Christ. .

You are quick to tell us what passages DON'T mean, but you can't tell us what they DO mean.

The thread was not started for me!

 I run into the same problem with Jehovah's Witnesses. They can tell me the party line on why Jesus ISN'T  God, but they can't deal with the verses that tell us clearly that He IS.  Exegete Romans 8:29-30 for us.

Rom 8:28-30
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Apparently you are not reading my posts. I stated what is obvious. This passage is written in the past tense. It refers to those who have already been predestined, called, justified, and glorified. These are what the Catholic Church calls the “church triumphant”, those who have already entered their heavenly reward. They pray for those of us who are still here working out our salvation that we may also join them one day.

Just exegete it, big boy. And I mean THOROUGHLY! We’re waiting with baited breath.

Open a new thread, and we can do it there. It is off topic in this thread. If you want to pick a fight, why not take on the dare in the OP?

 

[guanophore]

God’s Word is united and so it cannot cause divisions. It is people who cause divisions.

Yes, we are in agreement on this point.

The Catholic leadership has caused much division and strife within Christianity -

I don’t think the causes for division and strive are confined to Catholic leadership. However I agree that it is the pride, arrogance, greed and other traits of the sin nature that cause division and strive, both within Christianity and without.

for their version of "unity" is nothing short of submission to the Pope's authority.

Actually, this is not the invention of any fallible men, but of Christ. He sent the Apostles with His own authority:

Luke 10:16
16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

He prayed for unity, and that unity was preserved in the Apostles. they passed on the authority to their successors, the bishops. Unity resides in the Truth. Jesus is the Truth, and He sent His spirit to guide His church into all truth. This He has accomplished, and will continue to do until He comes for His bride.

I feel sorry for those who wield authority as truth, rather than truth as authority.  That's really all you are talking about in your last few posts.

At least you can feel some sorrow for the brokeness in the Body of Christ.

You did not address my point, though, that the Scripture does not posess the qualities necessary to be the final authority.

It is the embracing of this fundamental error that has propogated the vast diversions of ecclesial communities in Protesantism today. When all the scattered members of the flock return to the care of Peter, unity will be restored.

 

[guanophore]

That was insincere. (Euphemism here for a lie).

With all due respect, not your daddy’s boy, that is exactly why I came here. If you were to look at my early posts, it might be more obvious. I discovered CAF when I was trying to find out what a sedavacantist was. It was a new term to me, and I was doing my research. I was fortunate to stumble upon such a treasure!

You make it obvious you’re not here to learn at all.

I learn something new here every day. But the question was not 'why did you stay".

And unfortunately when faced with a clear passage that exposes your error…

Since you don’t seem to want to respond to the OP, I have another suggestion. You appear to be very hostile to Catholics, so try this from a non-Catholic perspective. Take a few months to investigate the faith of the Orthodox. Go to an Orthodox forum, and try to convince them that they are interpreting scripture wrong. Try to pursuade them to give up the faith that was handed down to them from the Apostles. Try to convince them that people that came along 1600 years after they received their most Holy Faith from the Apostles have it more “right” than the Apostles from which they received the faith. Then you can come back here, and you will have more people available to help convince me of my error!

I you resort to attack, and the old faithful copout–

It was not an attack, it was an honest inquiry. I don’t understand why those of you that have your minds made up about what you want to believe, and apparently convinced that the Catholic Church is all wrong are here. Non said he came here to start dialogue, but it has become increasingly clear that he is not interested in learning about the Catholic faith. CAF is here to answer sincere questions about the faith. It is not a venue for people to spew their anti-Catholic disdain, and to spread heresies.

“That’s contrary to Apostolic teaching”. Or you think you can escape exegeting (do you even know what that word means?)

When something is posted that contradicts the Apostolic faith, it needs to be said. It is not charitable to allow people to continue in error. Most people do so in ignorance, but once they are told that their “different gospel” is not the same as the Apostolic gospel, they can make a more informed choice.

 by accusing something of being 'Calvinism' You have no idea how underwhelmed we are with that kind of dribble! It's threadbare Guanophore, and you embrace a 'gospel' of unamazing 'grace'.

Are you calling Calvanism “threadbare”? I am astonished.

I post that kind of information for the honest inquirers who read these threads, so that they will know the source of the things posted. Most people who embrace what they believe “the Bible teaches” have no idea that they have been infiltrated by Reformed theology.

Not daddy’s boy, I think you have no idea what the Catholic Church teaches. Unfortunately, it does not seem like you are here to find out. However, I will urge you again to stay on the topic (that is one of the forum rules) and give it a try:

Prove from Scripture and history that your denomination is the one founded by Christ.

Wow. If you want, we can give you a pass on that comment about past tense referring just to people who had already died. Or, you can continue on in that direction. You may want to meditate on the chapter a while first, though. Either way, we are eager to hear how you dissect those verses.

Getting off topic is against the forum rules. I’ll take the “pass”.

 

[UtSuShImI]

Historical Dare huh? How about something that can demolish foundations?!

Jesus is the real leader of the real church! How can the pope be a vicar of Christ! Isn’t that BLASPHEMY?! The pope even cannot forgive sins!

Meaning of Vicar…
Roman Catholic Church Meaning: an ecclesiastic representing the pope or a bishop.
4. a person who acts in place of another; substitute.
5. a person who is authorized to perform the functions of another; deputy: God’s vicar on earth.

How about Bible Verses!

Pope can forgive sins? NOT!
Verse is John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Asking pope to save us?
Verse is John 4:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

How about a commandment EVERY CATHOLIC BROKE!
Verses are Exodus 20:2-5

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

3 Do not have any other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me

Need Pictures? Even with the All seeing Eye?!

All seeing Eye - Believed to be the eye of Lucifer and those who claim control of it have control of world finances (as seen on the back of a one dollar bill). Used in divination. Hexes, curses, psychic control and all corruption are worked through this emblem. This one is a symbol of the Illuminati. Look at U.S. currency.

Pictures are in: s665.photobucket.com/albums/vv18/normztah/Catholics/

Worshiping Mary?
Verse is: Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger."

And so… a question to you Catholic friends… What is LOVE?(NEED ANSWER)

What about the INQUISITION? Catholics have long hidden it from the world! The inquisition is a Catholic lie about Truth! Catholics charge a man for something he did/DID NOT DO… so the even if the accused Admits or doesnt to the crime, HE IS KILLED! Then everything the accused owned will be donated… Donated where? The church and the king… Doesnt Rome have a king? Of course! Its the POPE! They mixed both religous and political things w/ the pope!

So… anyone contradicting to the teachings of the Bible?
Then i pray for you!
P.S. I need an answer for the What is Love Question!

 

[guanophore]

How about something that can demolish foundations?!

Is this why you came to CAF?

Jesus is the real leader of the real church! How can the pope be a vicar of Christ!

Because Christ, the Great High Priest, appointed Peter to shepherd the flock. Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth, and he gave it to His apostles. They passed it to their successors, one of whom is our current pope.

Isn’t that BLASPHEMY?!

I suppose it would be, if it was not Jesus doing it.

The pope even cannot forgive sins!

He will probably not forgive yours.

It is necessary that you have a firm purpose of amendment.

Meaning of Vicar…
Roman Catholic Church Meaning: an ecclesiastic representing the pope or a bishop.
4. a person who acts in place of another; substitute.
5. a person who is authorized to perform the functions of another; deputy: God’s vicar on earth.

Do you believe the things that aJesus told the Apostles were meaningless?

How about Bible Verses!

Pope can forgive sins? NOT!
Verse is John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is the REASON that the pope can forgive sins.

Asking pope to save us?
Verse is John 4:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Do you make a habit of asking the pope to save you?
If so, why?

How about a commandment EVERY CATHOLIC BROKE!
Verses are Exodus 20:2-5

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

3 Do not have any other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me

You seem to be very ill informed about Catholicism. Catholics believe that worshipping anything or anyone other than Almighty God constitutes the sin of idolatry.

Need Pictures? Even with the All seeing Eye?!

All seeing Eye - Believed to be the eye of Lucifer and those who claim control of it have control of world finances (as seen on the back of a one dollar bill). Used in divination. Hexes, curses, psychic control and all corruption are worked through this emblem. This one is a symbol of the Illuminati. Look at U.S. currency.

Pictures are in: s665.photobucket.com/albums/vv18/normztah/Catholics/

Do you somehow imagine that this insignia is connected to the Catholic Church?

Worshiping Mary?
Verse is: Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger."

And so… a question to you Catholic friends… What is LOVE?(NEED ANSWER)

Well, let’s see. We could start by not bearing false witness against your neighbor. That would mean, if you have love, you would open your mind to what Catholics really believe and teach, rather than all these lies.

What about the INQUISITION?

If you wish to continue posting here, you might want to consider looking at the forum rules. One of them is that you are supposed to stay on topic. If you want to discuss any or all of the calumnies you have brought here, then start a new thread for each.

In this thread, you are to respond to the OP (Original post) which you have not done.

Catholics have long hidden it from the world! The inquisition is a Catholic lie about Truth!

If you think the inquisition has been hidden from the world then you have a very small world.

In fact, the Church has kept the most detailed and accurate records of the proceedings,a dn they are available in the library.

Catholics charge a man for something he did/DID NOT DO… so the even if the accused Admits or doesnt to the crime, HE IS KILLED! Then everything the accused owned will be donated… Donated where? The church and the king…

Without a doubt there was some greed and abuse of power involved. This also has nothing to do with the OP. Try a search for “inquisition”. It is a common topic around here.

Doesnt Rome have a king? Of course! Its the POPE! They mixed both religous and political things w/ the pope!

It is true that, to the detriment of the Church, politics was mixed with religious things in the papacy of the middle ages. However, this is no longer the case. No, Rome does not have a king, and the Pope does not have temporal or secular power in Rome. He only has any jurisdiction in Vatican City, and in the Church founded by Christ.

So… anyone contradicting to the teachings of the Bible?
Then i pray for you!
P.S. I need an answer for the What is Love Question!

Try I Cor. 13, and see if you can begin to exercise any of those qualities.

 

[nsper7]

Historical Dare huh? How about something that can demolish foundations?!

Jesus is the real leader of the real church! How can the pope be a vicar of Christ! Isn’t that BLASPHEMY?! The pope even cannot forgive sins!

Meaning of Vicar…
Roman Catholic Church Meaning: an ecclesiastic representing the pope or a bishop.
4. a person who acts in place of another; substitute.
5. a person who is authorized to perform the functions of another; deputy: God’s vicar on earth.

How about Bible Verses!

Pope can forgive sins? NOT!
Verse is John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Asking pope to save us?
Verse is John 4:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

How about a commandment EVERY CATHOLIC BROKE!
Verses are Exodus 20:2-5

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

3 Do not have any other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me

Need Pictures? Even with the All seeing Eye?!

All seeing Eye - Believed to be the eye of Lucifer and those who claim control of it have control of world finances (as seen on the back of a one dollar bill). Used in divination. Hexes, curses, psychic control and all corruption are worked through this emblem. This one is a symbol of the Illuminati. Look at U.S. currency.

Pictures are in: s665.photobucket.com/albums/vv18/normztah/Catholics/

Worshiping Mary?
Verse is: Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger."

And so… a question to you Catholic friends… What is LOVE?(NEED ANSWER)

What about the INQUISITION? Catholics have long hidden it from the world! The inquisition is a Catholic lie about Truth! Catholics charge a man for something he did/DID NOT DO… so the even if the accused Admits or doesnt to the crime, HE IS KILLED! Then everything the accused owned will be donated… Donated where? The church and the king… Doesnt Rome have a king? Of course! Its the POPE! They mixed both religous and political things w/ the pope!

So… anyone contradicting to the teachings of the Bible?
Then i pray for you!
P.S. I need an answer for the What is Love Question!

All you are giving me is your interpretation of Scripture, one might be agreed and disagreed upon by some Protestants, and certainly by Catholics. You make it seem like Catholics have no understanding of Scripture.

But, since you insist:

1. Didn’t God command the construction of Cherubim on the Ark and other symbols in the Temple? Didn’t God command the Israelites to look at the bronze (I believe it was bronze) snake in order to avoid being killed by the plague of snakes in the desert?
2. In terms of the Pope (as a Bishop) or Priests forgiving sins, perhaps you should read John 20:23. Christ gave His disciples the authority to forgive sins.
3. That attempt to reference Mary in the Jeremiah verse is ridiculous. I have never heard of Catholic making cakes for the Blessed Virgin. Also, you should really read the basis for calling Mary the Queen of Heaven. It is because she is the Mother of Christ, who happens to be the King. What do you call the mother of the King? In Israelite culture, the mother of the King was called the Queen [Mother] and she was very influential (read the stories of Solomon’s relationship to his mom).
4. I don’t quite get the whole Illuminati reference, but then again, I always avoided the kool-aid. Maybe you should do the same.

For a much better defense of Catholicism against Fundamentalist accusations, check this out: catholic.com/library/anti_catholicism.asp

 

[Protestant101]

If you think the inquisition has been hidden from the world then you have a very small world.

In fact, the Church has kept the most detailed and accurate records of the proceedings,a dn they are available in the library.

Without a doubt there was some greed and abuse of power involved. This also has nothing to do with the OP. Try a search for “inquisition”. It is a common topic around here.

It is true that, to the detriment of the Church, politics was mixed with religious things in the papacy of the middle ages. However, this is no longer the case. No, Rome does not have a king, and the Pope does not have temporal or secular power in Rome. He only has any jurisdiction in Vatican City, and in the Church founded by Christ.

Sometimes I chuckle at your posts - it’s like you are in the karate ring having a fight with your opposers. You pick apart posts so that it is impossible for you to stay on topic yourself.

But what I don’t understand is that you, as the Catholic, should be able to show us the history that would affect the answers people see to the OPs question. You are repeating the same mistake that most of the Catholics make here - you simply repeat the claims about your Church, without real proof that the claims are so.

Rome’s doctrines and practices thereof have not changed since the time when they did all their “Inquisition” ministry. In countries where she can get away with it - you can bet the legislation in favor of Catholic doctrines; in fact ENFORCING Catholic doctrine, is still flying high. Rome is waiting, with a more conciliatory tone in other countries where it is not allowed; but the time will come.

If Protestants are so wrong about Church History; how come you can’t prove that the Roman Catholic Church no longer has the same political desires as it had during the Papacy of the middle ages? What happened to “Infallibility?” The big dare here should really be to the Catholics.

 

[SD_Catholic]

The collections were things to be studied, not things that were Canonical. There is a huge difference between the two.

jonathon

You’re right that the Church hadn’t formed a canon yet… but some of the writings had already been declared inspired by the Church (including ones he omitted)… he took these inspired books and tried to throw out the ones he didnt like… He was excommunicated from the CC for it… It’s easy to see his later fromed religion wasn’t responsible for collecting them… which I think is what you’re claiming?

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

I apologise for your inability to comprehend the plain English that I wrote. As such, I’ll rephrase so that those who do not know English as a first, second, or third language can understand it.

Every book in Marcion’s canon is found in every Canon of the different branches of Contemporary Christianity. Furthermore, Marcion’s cannon was used as the starting point, in constructing a list of what was Canonical. There were no questions about the inclusion of all of the books he deemed to be Canonical, as Canonical.

The Gnosticism of St Paul. (And if you don’t understand how and why he is Gnostic, then you don’t understand Gnosticism at all. )

Paul was, after all, the spiritual grandfather of Marcion.

jonathon

FYI… English is my only language… and for yourself and all those who might not know what you said… this was pasted from what you wrote way back on page 36…

"The earliest formally defined Canon of books, which became the current Bible was constructed by Gnostic Christians."… underline added by me.

What part of your statement here doesn’t say that the current Bible was formed by Gnostics?

There’s a big difference between having a canon that includes some inspired books of the Bible and actually canonizing all the inspired books of the Bible… Wouldn’t you agree?

SD

ps I’m a Catholic Christian, so sorry, I don’t know everything about Gnostics, but the early Christians taught us enough about them.

 

[catholic_daddy]

You are missing my point, not daddy’s boy. Scripture cannot “mess” with my theology because they both came from the same Source. The NT was written by Catholics. All of it represents Catholic belief and practiceMy understanding of the passage may be different because I am reading it from the point of view of those who wrote it. You are reading it from the point of view of those who separated from the Apostolic Tradition 500 years ago. Most of the modern Protestants don’t even read the Early Curch FAthers. And if they do, they don’t recognize that Church founded by Christ. .

The thread was not started for me!

Rom 8:28-30
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Apparently you are not reading my posts. I stated what is obvious. This passage is written in the past tense. It refers to those who have already been predestined, called, justified, and glorified. These are what the Catholic Church calls the “church triumphant”, those who have already entered their heavenly reward. They pray for those of us who are still here working out our salvation that we may also join them one day.

Open a new thread, and we can do it there. It is off topic in this thread. If you want to pick a fight, why not take on the dare in the OP?

.

You can’t do it, can you?! Please don’t hide behind starting a new thread. You say a ton of stuff that is 'off topic! I am new on this site and don’t know how to start a new thead
Nor do I know what the OP is.

But I can see you are intimidated about breaking down the text. You might be concerned that you aren’t able to see how the first sentence shows this is not just about things in the past. If you really are able to exegete that passage and deal with what is in there, then start the thread.

The NT was written by men who were part of the universal (‘catholic’) church. It was a simple adjective, friend. But you need the same Holy Spirit they had in order to interpret. I’m beginnining to wonder if He lives in you. You don’t have to have the Holy Spirit to regurgitate things your church has published.

 

[ncgolf]

I’m beginnining to wonder if He lives in you.

Frankly … that is the only argument Protestants end up using as the ultimate denier of another’s witness … I do not see Catholics using this but in an instant you can judge another man’s intent and motive.

What response is there when someone asks you if you have stopped beating your wife … because that is what you are saying.

You don’t have to have the Holy Spirit to regurgitate things your church has published.

You do if you believe it … You cannot regurgitate what is not inside you … or am I missing something.

So let me ask where do you get your information …you do not read theolgians to help you understand, you do not discuss this at your church or are you saying everything you wrote is your original idea … it is your uniquely developed theology.