A Historical Dare to Protestants

[elvisman]

There are no more Apostles. God saw to it that His Word would be preserved. His authority rests on all church leaders who submit to His authority as revealed in his Word. I have say under so many incredibly gifted and annointed teachers that I have not the least bit of doubt as to where His Spirit is and how He communicates to his people. It truly is a non-issue for me and countless millions of others.
Try Googling R C Sproul if you want to hear one of the greatest theologians alive today. (He is not with the RCC)
God Bless

**Can you show me where it says this in Scripture *(the red *text above)? **

**PS - I like RC Sproul. He believes in infant baptismal regeneration. **
**Is he wrong? **
Please tell me.

 

[ncgolf]

There are no more Apostles.

Apostolic does not mean there are more apostles … it is the preservation of the teaching from those men so each subsequent generation receives the same as the first.

God saw to it that His Word would be preserved. His authority rests on all church leaders who submit to His authority as revealed in his Word.

How does this work practically … if I want to be taught as the Apostles taught (not man made) how would you convince me you have that credibility or authority?

I have say under so many incredibly gifted and annointed teachers that I have not the least bit of doubt as to where His Spirit is and how He communicates to his people.

I don’t doubt there are many excellent teachers … both Catholic and non Catholic … God’s grace is not limited to the Catholic Church.

It truly is a non-issue for me and countless millions of others.

You are convinced the teaching you receive then is the same as the initial Apostles taught? Nothing artificial added to use current terminology?

Try Googling R C Sproul if you want to hear one of the greatest theologians alive today. (He is not with the RCC)
God Bless

Not today … but I will listen, I have no doubt he is probably a very powerful and thoughtful preacher.

 

[Tomster]

What is your basis for saying he did not throw out the 7 deuterocanonical books? History simply doesn’t support it. All of Christendom accepted those 7 books until Martin Luther decided he didn’t like them

History is on the side of the Catholic Church on this one too. The OT canon that Protestants recognize ( how could anyone within Protestantism canonize any part of the Scripture with their rejection of any infallible authority is beyond me ) is simply a Pharasaic canon approved by the Pharisees somtime after Christ’s Resurrection. Before the spread of Catholicism, the Pharisees recognized the Septuagint (Alexandrian) canon.

“Beware of the teachings of the Pharisees” - Jesus of Nazareth

 

[rinnie]

You have to look at it this way. If we did not have the RCC and the Pope and Bishops how could we know who to believe.

Jesus left us the Church, he left us leaders to teach us in the Church. We cannot follow anyone but the Church. Like the apostle said without the without the teachings of the Church to whom would I go. If you do not understand the Church that is one thing. But if it is revealed to you. there is no choice. Anyone who truely understands the Catholic Religion could never leave. It would make no sense.

Jesus is human and divine. You cannot follow the teachings of man. The teachings of other Church’s just do not add up.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Exactly, Also how a can protestant follow the teachings of Scripture if they do not have all of the books. Do you not agree also that we need SS with Tradition, the way it tells us in the bible?

Actually I don’t. I am basically SS and believe God sovereignly saw to it that the apocryphal books were not included in the Canon.

 

[DCD]

Fortunately we have millions and millions of Christians in the world who have the Holy Spirit–“the Teacher” according to Jesus–living inside them to discern what is truth and what is error.

Sadly we have millions and millions of christian denominations in error. Jesus prayed earnestly that His Church be one.

Pax,
David

 

[catholic_daddy]

You have to look at it this way. If we did not have the RCC and the Pope and Bishops how could we know who to believe.

Jesus left us the Church, he left us leaders to teach us in the Church. We cannot follow anyone but the Church. Like the apostle said without the without the teachings of the Church to whom would I go. If you do not understand the Church that is one thing. But if it is revealed to you. there is no choice. Anyone who truely understands the Catholic Religion could never leave. It would make no sense.

Jesus is human and divine. You cannot follow the teachings of man. The teachings of other Church’s just do not add up.

I know many Baptist and Protestant churches that have a LOT of former Roman Catholics who believe they found out what it means to born again in those churches. As for the need for the RCC for understanding and guidance, I never worry about that. I have the Holy Spirit inside me and when I hear solid teachers teach Scripture, it resonates as the illumination of the Spirit. It is wonderful and yet routine!

 

[catholic_daddy]

Sadly we have millions and millions of christian denominations in error. Jesus prayed earnestly that His Church be one.

Pax,
David

There are so many churches that ours feel at one with, even with different names and slightly different views of spiritual gifts or mode of baptism, etc

 

[DCD]

There are so many churches that ours feel at one with, even with different names and slightly different views of spiritual gifts or mode of baptism, etc

Faith has nothing to do with a feelings.

Pax,
David

 

[guanophore]

nope… id say it was the reason but its too down under

Are you saying it “low” to try to convert Catholics?

but then if he was a real pope, shouldnt there any miraculous things happening to him if he was real… but nooooooo… the devil wont even bother approaching him…

This is a very pejorative and judgmental thing for you to say about any other human being. You seem to know very little about the miracles in his life, and even less about the spiritual warfare that he conducts daily. Only an arrogant person could make such a comment about a dedicated servant of God.

then yes it is Blasphemy its a pope not Jesus/God He uses God’s name by saying he is the “vicar” of Christ…

Ok, you are just spouting out of ignorance, then. Of course it would be blasphemy for any human to claim to be God. This is the sin into which Adam and Eve fell. Obviously you do not know the meaning of the word “vicar” so you should be excused. You know not what you say.

Read John 14:6 recently? Jesus saith unto him,** I **am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This was written by a Catholic, for Catholics.

Are you by any chance blind? Then if the pope is the vicar then wouldnt the Bible have any hint of saying to “venerate” the pope or whatever… The verse CLEARLY says: I(JESUS) FATHER(GOD) BY ME(JESUS) ooopss what do you know… no space for the so called “pope” here

It is true that the word “pope” is an affectionate Latin term that was not prevalent when the NT was written. Like the word “trinity”, it is not found in the Holy Writings.

However, honoring those who lead us in the faith is quite scriptural.

He won’t forgive my sins because he isnt God… maybe the Apostles can forgive sins because they LITERALLY walked with GOD!

You are sure on to some valuable truths here. One is that the Pope will not forgive your sins. This is not, however, because he is not God. It is because he is not permitted by God to do so without a firm purpose of amendment, which does not appear to be evident in your case.

You are also correct that the Apostles could forgive sins because they did literallly walked with God. it was not the walking, though, that enables them to forgive, but the authority He gve to them, and they to their successors.

The John 14:6 PLEASE! CHECKING… No pope in the verse is mentioned… only says a remarkable CLEAR statement -BY ME(Jesus)

It would be an error to separate the pope, or any other committed Christian, from Christ. The reason we are able to lead others to God is because God is generous, and enables us to be His witnesses.

And by the way… why come to the pope and other priests to be forgiven when YOU can talk straight to GOD by PRAYER!

Because talking to God was not the manner in which He established that forgiveness was to be granted.

I wouldnt even try to spit at his direction! The pope cannot forgive sins!

I am relieved to hear this, because even though you are grossly disrespectful of the Holy Father, Jesus said that whatever you do the least of His brethren, that you would do unto Him. Therefore, if you were to be spitting in his direction, you would be spitting at Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

Well duh! I know that! Then what are the people in the pictures doing? Bowing down to the MAN-MADE idols huh?

No. Statues are not idols. They are memorials of our loved ones. Have you never seen anyone visit a grave, and kneel in prayer? Do you imagine that they are praying to the headstone? How ridiculous!

Read Jeremiah 10 especially 10,14-15

This is a true statement about idols. This is why Paul was not concerned about meat that was offered to them. They are nothing.

so then what do you think you are doing? Shouldnt your accusations mirror to you also… bearing false testimony

We are all responsible for every idle word we speak. Calumny and slander, especially against the One Holy Bride of Christ is a very serious matter.

… and if you have love the you would also open your mind to what Christians really believe…

Would that be the gospel according you you?

and then why answer the What is Love question so suddenly? So then… did something struck you when you read Jeremiah 7:18? Lets read it again!

Jeremiah 7:18:“The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to **pour out **drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.”

So then… my dear friend… it clearly says “queen of heaven”
and “provoke me to anger” What do you say about this?

I say that a false “Queen of Heaven” does not nullify the real one, any more than the Pharoah of Egypt, calling Himself “God on Earth”, nullifies the fact of Jesus.

REMEMBER CATHOLICS: GOD IS A JEALOUS AND ZEALOUS GOD and Jealous is to god means he wants him to be the only one worshipped! NOT THE POPE! NOT THE BISHOP! BUT GOD!

I agree. It seems that you may erroneously believe that Catholics worship the pope, or the bishop, or statues. You have been wrongly taught about the Catholic faith. Are you willing to be corrected, so you can enjoy the privilege of hating us for what we really believe, instead of what you erroneously have been taught?

Doesnt this thread say something about History… just digging something smelly of the past!

No, actually, you have done nothing to answer the OP. The only smelly “past” you have revealed is that you have been fed a lot of anticatholic lies.

And the books are in the restricted section?

Just like any collection of valuable works, I am sure they are preserved just like the works in Pagan libraries, temperature controlled, sealed, and secured.

 SO there was no denying of Early Catholics abusing power! And by the way.... another sin..... GREED!

No, Christians have always suffered from sins of the flesh. Ananias and Sapphira are a good example.

There was a newspaper news that was very old that says the Pope was mixed with a Kingly power and a Papal power!

It is is true that temporal authority was invested in the same person that spiritual authority was. I personally think it was a big mistake, however, it is always easier to make such judgements in hindsight.

Nice answer… i thought Catholics would say Love is blind or Love is … or any other things… so this is the only reply i can agree w/ you… BUT are you sure you also do the things said in I Cor. 13 i know i don’t do some of it because our body is enclosed in the spirit of sin…

We will struggle with the sin nature until we are delivered at the end.
The truth hurts! Doesn’t it?
Yes, I must confess, it is painful to dialogue with those of you that are so hostile against the authority appointed by Christ to shepherd His One Body, the Church.

 

[guanophore]

“His Church” cannot possibly mean just one denomination - as in “Roman Catholic.” God has always had His children in all churches.

While I do agree that not all members of the Church are “Roman” in practice, there is only one Church, One Body. All who are members of Christ are members of His One Body, the Church.

We “Protestants” don’t just come here and tell you what we believe.

Actually, there are many that do. I just read some posts by NonCatholic and moondweller that keep insisting that we believe what they say we do, instead of what we actually do.

Some of us come here and tell you our understanding of it - but such characterizations are not needed, and are likely highly inaccurate, atleast in some cases.

Yes. Then again, that is one of the main purposes of CAF. If Catholics are to be abused and hated by our separated brethren, then at least may it be for what we actually believe, rather than some strange misconception.

I have questions about the general thinking of Catholics on this issue. The Reformation did not seek to eliminate works from the equation; only to clarify their rightful place.

I agree with what you say about the “general thinking of Catholics” on the role of works. I think (sadly) that the vast majority of Catholics, especially those catechized between 1960 an 2000 definitely suffer from very poor theology. I say this as a cradle Latin Catholic who left the One, Holy, and Apostolic Faith for that reason.

I also understand that it was the desire of the Reformers to bring balance - especially about the relationship of grace and works in salvation. My spiritual life was saved by the Holy Spirit working through my separated brethren in this matter.

In studying the Reformation, I came to clarity about the Apostolic teaching.

 

[Thorwald]

To all those who deny that the “Roman Catholic Church” (and/or Eastern Orthodox) is the Church founded by Christ, then I have a little dare for you. Prove from Scripture and history that your denomination is the one founded by Christ.

I say use ‘history’ because Scripture is vague enough that anyone, even us evil old Papists (or those in the process of converting to Papism), could claim that their doctrines match Scripture (after all, don’t most of those tens of thousands of Protestant denominations claim that they are each based on Scripture).

For me, it was history that won me over to the Catholic Church. No other group (save the Eastern Orthodox) can trace their history as far as back as the Catholic Church. That is a key point, because unless you can somehow connect your denomination chronologically to the Apostles, then you are claiming that there was a period of time where there was no ‘true Church’ and this sort of violates that whole gates of Hell prevailing against the Church thingy. Yeah, not good.

So, fire away.

So that little ‘red man with horns’ got to you early, did he?

 

[catholic_daddy]

Faith has nothing to do with a feelings.

Pax,
David

That would be a BIG 10-4 DUH!!! Big Daddy. Over

 

[catholic_daddy]

While I do agree that not all members of the Church are “Roman” in practice, there is only one Church, One Body. All who are members of Christ are members of His One Body, the Church.

Actually, there are many that do. I just read some posts by NonCatholic and moondweller that keep insisting that we believe what they say we do, instead of what we actually do.

Yes. Then again, that is one of the main purposes of CAF. If Catholics are to be abused and hated by our separated brethren, then at least may it be for what we actually believe, rather than some strange misconception.

I agree with what you say about the “general thinking of Catholics” on the role of works. I think (sadly) that the vast majority of Catholics, especially those catechized between 1960 an 2000 definitely suffer from very poor theology. I say this as a cradle Latin Catholic who left the One, Holy, and Apostolic Faith for that reason.

I also understand that it was the desire of the Reformers to bring balance - especially about the relationship of grace and works in salvation. My spiritual life was saved by the Holy Spirit working through my separated brethren in this matter.

In studying the Reformation, I came to clarity about the Apostolic teaching.

I liked your post, Guanoman, and I have to say that anyone who hates a Catholic has no right to consider themselves ‘brethren’, separated or otherwise.

 

[Thorwald]

I liked your post, Guanoman, and I have to say that anyone who hates a Catholic has no right to consider themselves ‘brethren’, separated or otherwise.

I find it hard to believe that any Christian ‘hates’ anyone. Anyone who hates another person, has no God in them (per the N/T scripture). We 'hate evil acts and words, only.

 

[guanophore]

There were and are many population groups who by Bible definition can be counted as “God’s children.” Many of them have nothing to do with “Rome has spoken.” This is enough history for me.

If this is enough history for you, then you are very intellectually shallow.

Of course there were many population groups that were not “God’s Children”!

However, all those described in scripture as belonging to the One Body of Christ were Catholic, and still are!

Since this is a “historical dare,” would you allow me to turn the tables for the purpose of clarification? I would be interested to know what specific Scriptures you are using when you say that “The Apostles forgave sins.”

The scriptures attest that Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins. They did not always do so. Jesus authorized them to retain sins also. We see this clearly in the account of Ananias and Sapphira. Their sins were retained because they did not have a firm purpose of amendment. The results of sins that were retained are no different now than they were when they were recored in the book of Acts.

 

[catholic_daddy]

No. Statues are not idols. They are memorials of our loved ones. Have you never seen anyone visit a grave, and kneel in prayer? Do you imagine that they are praying to the headstone? How ridiculous!

This is a true statement about idols. This is why Paul was not concerned about meat that was offered to them. They are nothing.

We are all responsible for every idle word we speak. Calumny and slander, especially against the One Holy Bride of Christ is a very serious matter.

Would that be the gospel according you you?

I say that a false “Queen of Heaven” does not nullify the real one, any more than the Pharoah of Egypt, calling Himself “God on Earth”, nullifies the fact of Jesus.

I agree. It seems that you may erroneously believe that Catholics worship the pope, or the bishop, or statues. You have been wrongly taught about the Catholic faith. Are you willing to be corrected, so you can enjoy the privilege of hating us for what we really believe, instead of what you erroneously have been taught?

No, actually, you have done nothing to answer the OP. The only smelly “past” you have revealed is that you have been fed a lot of anticatholic lies.

Just like any collection of valuable works, I am sure they are preserved just like the works in Pagan libraries, temperature controlled, sealed, and secured.

No, Christians have always suffered from sins of the flesh. Ananias and Sapphira are a good example.

It is is true that temporal authority was invested in the same person that spiritual authority was. I personally think it was a big mistake, however, it is always easier to make such judgements in hindsight.

We will struggle with the sin nature until we are delivered at the end.
The truth hurts! Doesn’t it?
Yes, I must confess, it is painful to dialogue with those of you that are so hostile against the authority appointed by Christ to shepherd His One Body, the Church.

I have three thoughts here…

1. Guanoman, you are very thorough in addressing the bulk of a post. You have more patience with that than I do. Maybe if I wasn’t having to do this from a Blackberry I would be more prolific.
2. That is an interesting dance around some pretty telling idolotry evidence.
3. It IS interesting that the ONLY mention of a “Queen of Heaven” in the Bible is in that verse quoted. Of course you know that it is thought by not a few that the same spirit behind the Queen of Heaven mentioned in scripture is also behind the Queen of Heaven NOT mentioned in Scripture yet promoted by the RCC.

 

[guanophore]

Actually Pat if you want to get down to brass tacks. All churches can trace their lineage back to the first church. You see Luther was an ordaned priest, being such he was in the Apostalic linage and when he passed on his knowledge it continued, even when the splits continued to occur.

No, SK, thisn is not the case. The authority provided by Christ ceased when Luther departed from the Teachings of Christ.

Those who are not in unity with the Successors of the Apostles are not in unity with the One who sent Him. Unity resides in Truth. Those who depart from the Truth, as Luther did, are no longer in communion with Christ.

Furthermore, it is not “knowledge” that is passed, but the faith that was once and for all delivered to the Saints. Luther did pass his “knowledge” rather than the Apostolic faith. However, I agree that his erroeous doctrines did continue, even when the splits continued to occur. This is the fruit of error = separation and division.

So, logically all the “christian” churches trace back through the CC and into the first Church from there. (Not admitting that the RCC is the one and only Church, just making a point.)

Your point is a worthy one, though it is based on a false premise, and therefore, arrives at a false conclusion.

The Catholic Church is not “Roman”.

All denominations do trace their lineage back to the CC because it is the one founded by Christ. To “denominate” means to derive one’s name from. All non-Catholic Churches define themselves according to how they are “not” Catholic.

And another point, if these other churches had no lineage back to the first church, why is it that the Pope recognises them as “Daughters”. This suggests some sort of parenthood and being such there has to be a lineage involved.

Even children born outside the covenant can be received into the covenant. Jacob accepted the sons of his Egyptian wife as sons of the covenant.

 

[guanophore]

The problem I keep running into is that while Paul talks over and over about believers having BEEN saved (past perfect tense) and having been reconciled to God, I don’t find many Catholics who know that any such thing has happened to them. They don’t seem to have what the hearers of Paul had and what many that I know havw.

I agree. It does not even seem that your very own Catholic Daddy grasped this, and apparently did not teach it to you. However, an indvidual failing to understand and properly teach the faith does not invalidate the faith.

And of course everyone who has received the new life and the Holy Spirit thrugh faith in Christ is a member of the universal Church. You could not be saved without being a part of Christ’s bride and a member of His Body.

This is why the Catholic Church teaches that there are some members of the Body that don’t even realize that they are.

As to Luther starting his own church, he did nothing of the kind. What he did was point out error and when he was castigated for doing so he walked the path that God lead him down inspite of the human agents that stood against him.

I agree that Luther did not intend to start his own Church. However, this was the fruit of his rebellion against the Church founded by Christ. He did point out error, and these were, for the most part, good points. However God does not “lead” down the path of rebellion and disobedience. That is another one “leading”.

I will also agree that he persisted in spite of the ‘human agents’ that stood against him. That was not the problem. The problem arose from Him standing against the One, Holy, Catholic andApostolic Church founded by Christ.

I believe that Luther was unable to figure out how to resist the humans who were opposed to God without opposing God.