A little rant......

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hlmem said:
It used to be illegal for a white and a black to be married.

Is it wrong because the law says so? No

Just because something is illegal does not make it wrong.

Cigarettes are legal yet they only do harm.

What is right and wrong is not determined by laws. But I think that you glossed over my point about wanting society not only laws to change before you started on your soapbox rant…
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Pax tecum!

Way to not address anything else I said. I guess when you can’t answer someone’s arguments, just tell them they are doing a “soapbox rant”, huh?

Your logic is utterly appauling. You are taking one law that was on the books decades ago and also happened to be unjust. I never said that everything that has ever been illegal was wrong. Not once did I say that. What my point was, that evidently you completely missed, was that as long as something IS legal, there will be much more acceptance of it than if it is illegal.

Janet Folger told a story that I think is relevent to this discussion. She said that there were some kids from Germany a while back whose parents had been alive during the Holocaust. After they learned about the Holocaust in school and went to see the concentration camps, they were asked how they felt about seeing what had happened on their parents’ watch. The kids said, “I felt like going home and spitting in their faces” because their parents had sat by and watched all of it happen and had done nothing to stop it. When your kids learn about the American abortion Holocaust, are they going to want to come home from school and spit in your face because you supported it?

I just can’t believe you support the murder of unborn children and still call yourself a Christian. Why not just join up with Catholics for a Free Choice?

In Christ,
Rand
 
fix said:
Do you think laws should contradict reason and the natural law?
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The problem is whose natural law do the laws reflect.

Art one time the world thought the earth was flat.

Though that is a bad example it just shows that times and people change.

And though abortion laws might make the world a better place, slippery slopes are hard to stop on
 
hlmem said:
I find myself on a weird line as I don’t think abortion is right. Suicide is wrong. And Sex before marriage ruins marriage

BUT

That is how I choose to live my life and I support laws that legalize abortion because I think people should be allowed to live by their values not mine.

What I want is a society where people choose not to get an abortion because its wrong, not because its illegal.
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Back during the days when slavery was legal there were lots of people like you. They were called :gradualists" because, although they claimed they opposed slavery they beleived it could not be ended until people accepted it was wrong. They, like you, sat out the debate on the greatest moral issue of their time. They ,like you, commited the sin of omission-when confronted with evil you looked away.
 
Rand_Al_Thor said:
Pax tecum!

Way to not address anything else I said. I guess when you can’t answer someone’s arguments, just tell them they are doing a “soapbox rant”, huh?

Your logic is utterly appauling. You are taking one law that was on the books decades ago and also happened to be unjust. I never said that everything that has ever been illegal was wrong. Not once did I say that. What my point was, that evidently you completely missed, was that as long as something IS legal, there will be much more acceptance of it than if it is illegal.
,
Rand
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You say the blacks cant marry whites law is unjust, so do I. But at the time many people saying that it was a just law. Do you not see how peoples ideas of what is just and not change over time.

The only way I would leave Catholicism is if I continue to meet people like you. People that think belittling someone for their opinion is being a good Christian. I respect that your opinion if different from mine. I can even respect that fact you think you are better than me. But then after that SHUT UP!

And I think it is just as unjust to kill an unborn baby as it is to have one born to an unfit, unprepared parent and have that child live a very painful 18 years if not longer.
 
estesbob said:
Back during the days when slavery was legal there were lots of people like you. They were called :gradualists" because, although they claimed they opposed slavery they beleived it could not be ended until people accepted it was wrong. They, like you, sat out the debate on the greatest moral issue of their time. They ,like you, commited the sin of omission-when confronted with evil you looked away.
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Then I ask you what have you don’e lately to prevent abortions?

Or are you one of the many that criticizes my opinions but if asked what you yourself do, I am sure your list would be blank.
 
hlmem said:
Then I ask you what have you don’e lately to prevent abortions?

Or are you one of the many that criticizes my opinions but if asked what you yourself do, I am sure your list would be blank.
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I am a counselor in a CPC, I work hard to elect pro-life canidates and I never vote for pro-abortion canidates for any office. I
 
hlmem said:
You say the blacks cant marry whites law is unjust, so do I. But at the time many people saying that it was a just law. Do you not see how peoples ideas of what is just and not change over time.

The only way I would leave Catholicism is if I continue to meet people like you. People that think belittling someone for their opinion is being a good Christian. I respect that your opinion if different from mine. I can even respect that fact you think you are better than me. But then after that SHUT UP!

And I think it is just as unjust to kill an unborn baby as it is to have one born to an unfit, unprepared parent and have that child live a very painful 18 years if not longer.
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Ah-now we have descended in the “better dead than underfed” argument. The arguments of those who support this abject evil are so predictable. Are we ready for the “hearts and minds rationalization”? Or perhaps its time for the “child is a parasite analogy”?

As far as your opinion I dont respect it all. I dont respect an opinion that its is ok to kill our children under any circumstances.
 
hlmem said:
The only way I would leave Catholicism is if I continue to meet people like you. People that think belittling someone for their opinion is being a good Christian. I respect that your opinion if different from mine. I can even respect that fact you think you are better than me. But then after that SHUT UP!
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Woah, when did I say anything about thinking I was better than you? Didn’t say that. Don’t put words in my mouth. I am not belittling you either. What I am saying is that it is absolutely ridiculous that you support legalized abortion and call yourself a Catholic. That is not belittling you; that is stating that you are calling yourself a Catholic and yet opposing one of the most fundamental dogmas of the faith–the sanctity of life. It is not about “opinions”…I am not a relativist and the Catholic and indeed entire Christian faith is not a relativist faith.
hlmem said:
And I think it is just as unjust to kill an unborn baby as it is to have one born to an unfit, unprepared parent and have that child live a very painful 18 years if not longer.
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So what do you propose for the children who MIGHT be born into situations like this? Just kill them? This kind of justification for the murder of innocent children makes me sick. I will pray for you.

"The Lord has called me by my name from the womb of my mother…And now saith the Lord, that formed me from the womb to be his servant" - Isaiah 49:1,5

You are advocating killing off those whom the Lord has a plan for. You are acting in opposition to Church dogma and Holy Scripture. Why is it that people think they can believe whatever they want to?

In Christ,
Rand
 
I have never met a hungry, or abused person begging someone to kill them. If those in that condition do not choose to die, who are we to decide they are better off dead?

Is it not in the best traditions of the Church to help the poor and sick, rather than to kill them?
 
jay29 said:
I have to blow off some steam…

Then I go on to say what the catholic faith’s stance is and he will hear none of it. He states he will not let an old man, a nazi, in the vatican tell him what to do. Then he starts firing insults at me. All kinds of F U’s and a gammout of other jibberish. I felt like telling him he shouldn’t even dare recieve the Eucharist, but I thought it wasn’t my place and it would only throw gas on the fire.
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From what you said here…He may find out a lot about fire…eternal fire…if he isn’t careful.

Iowa Mike
 
Iowa_Mike said:
From what you said here…He may find out a lot about fire…eternal fire…if he isn’t careful.

Iowa Mike
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I wouldn’t dare predict that someone else will be condemned. But it is clear that we are dealing with someone who is full of anger and that is not compatible with Christ’s message to us.
 
vern_humphrey said:
I wouldn’t dare predict that someone else will be condemend. But it is clear that we are dealing with someone who is full of anger and that is not compatible with Christ’s message to us.
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I didn’t mean to imply that he was destined to go there…but…I would say that his belief’s, attitudes and behavior don’t bode well for him.

Iowa Mike
 
Iowa_Mike said:
I didn’t mean to imply that he was destined to go there…but…I would say that his belief’s, attitudes and behavior don’t bode well for him.

Iowa Mike
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In discussions like this, we often have to stop and think about the person we are dealing with – many times we are faced with someone who is arguing not from logic, but from anger.

I am not very good at dealing with such people, but I try not to condemn them.
 
vern_humphrey said:
In discussions like this, we often have to stop and think about the person we are dealing with – many times we are faced with someone who is arguing not from logic, but from anger.

I am not very good at dealing with such people, but I try not to condemn them.
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I want to be clear, I am not condeming him. I fear that unless he changes his ways he will do that all by himself.

Iowa Mike
 
Iowa_Mike said:
I want to be clear, I am not condeming him. I fear that unless he changes his ways he will do that all by himself.

Iowa Mike
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Sadly, you may be right. The question is, what can we do to help him? I often think disputing with such people only hardens them and leads them deeper into whatever hole they have chosen for themselves.
 
Rand_Al_Thor said:
Pax tecum!

That is absolutely ridiculous! Would you also support laws to legalize rape and child pornography? What about legalizing theft and murder while we’re at it? After all, I just choose to live my life without doing these things, but I think people should be allowed to live by their values, not mine. :rolleyes: If their values say those things are all right, then it’s fine by me! :rolleyes:

Do you realize that by supporting laws that keep abortion legal, you are coming dangerously close to excommunicating yourself? If you support legalized abortion, then the blood of those children is on your hands just as much as those who perform the abortions.

People won’t think that abortion is wrong if it’s still legal.

In Christ,
Rand
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Thank you for pointing out the inconsistency of the pro-choice position – your post is right on!
 
Veritas41 said:
Thank you for pointing out the inconsistency of the pro-choice position – your post is right on!
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How can there be any consistency in the position that the deliberate, pre-mediated murder of the most helpless and innocent amongst us is a good thing?:eek:
 
vern_humphrey said:
How can there be any consistency in the position that the deliberate, pre-mediated murder of the most helpless and innocent amongst us is a good thing?:eek:
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No one said abortion was a good thing. It just sometimes can the the best choice of 2 really bad ones
 
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