A little whine about mode of dress

[LightBound]

I was going to read all the posts before replying, but after the third page I felt I couldn’t take it anymore. Why does everyone keep saying: Well at least they came? I don’t know if you all know how that sounds. And since when is correcting someone being judgmental? There is something we owe to our brothers and sisters in the faith and that is Charity. True charity which in this case will be shown by letting someone know that what they are doing is wrong, irrespective of your worries or fear of what others might think of you. Correction not so that we can be satisfied with being better in one aspect of virtue than the person, but so that we can help the person along the way to God! Yes, thank God they came, but after that then what? They sit in the pews forever without taking a step closer to loving God and His Christ, His Church and somehow that’s okay because " at least they were there"?
Please! Lets not give excuses for our lack of charity and boldness in proclaiming the truth.
The teachers of the doctrines of the church are the priests and they should be listened to. If someone will have no respect for the priest or Jesus in the blessed sacrament or for the Holy sacrifice of the mass, then the person has things explained to them after which a failure to comply will show that the person has no respect for authority. But at least they would have heard it pointblank. We can’t just sit and hope that someday the light will shine in their hearts while they cause distractions and give bad example to others.

I will give the example again of what a priest said after mass in a Parish I once attended. He said that he had refused six people communion because their dresses were improper and their bosoms were showing because of their low cut necklines. He announced to all present that such immodest dressing and transparent clothing or short clothing above the knee will not be tolerated. He advised that women desist from it and that they would be denied communion as long as they persisted, but they would not be refused entry into the church in the hope that someday they will listen to Christ. I was pleased.

I wish someone had told me earlier about proper dress sense. I found out on my own later and I was upset because I thought that since nobody said anything it meant the dress was acceptable

I think that we stand the risk of lowering the bar because we are afraid we’d be acting judgmental and Christians who just get by are not the Christians the Church needs now. So they’ll feel bad, or angry and may never come back. Then we pray for them, because if they wouldn’t listen to truth, they probably would have a hard time listening to Christ anyway and those are not the kind of friends Christ wants. Things will only get worse. If shorts are okay, next will be short shorts, and then soon someone would just get out of the beach and straight into church for mass.
In many parishes in the state I currently school in, Trousers are banned. Not to veil your hair is a taboo and guess what? We still can’t find sits in the third mass on Sunday-everywhere is full!

Let us not think that Christ does not need us to show the way to others. I especially think that the Parish priests are responsible for the respect or lack of it that the Parishioners show. The pulpit is not there for nothing, their authority has not been given them for nothing-they should use it. Talk about it during the homily or announce it after the communion whatever. We will be held accountable for the bad we did, but also for the good we did not do. These people need us even if they don’t know it. I’ve said things in a rush. Sorry.

You stated many parishes in your state have banned trousers? Are these diocesan parishes or SSPX/SSPV? Does that mean the men wear robes? If they don’t, why are only the women banned from wearing pants? Jesus, the Apostles, and all the OT men
wore robes and tunics, not pants…modesty is one thing…this banning of bifurcated material on women is another!

 

[Bonjovie]

Quote:

When you see the whole world come together in the faith at an event like this, some things become very visible, they stick out. The biggest thing by far that sticks out, is just how far Americanism has infected the Church in many countries…

…the idea of a kind of rugged, independent, “don’t tell us what to do, we’ll do it our own way” kind of attitude. What this has caused in America and countries America has influenced, is a heavy streak of theological independence which manifests itself in many ways.

When you attend Mass at an event like World Youth Day, where worshipers gather from many different countries, Americans and their theological allies stick out like sore thumbs. The irreverent dress, many times immodest…

…the Catholic Church in America has accommodated Protestantism, especially the American brand of Protestantism. It’s so much about feeling and emotion, and feeling good, and touchy-feely and community. Mass is more about the people who attend it, than the God who is worshiped at it. And, since the people are the focus, the people’s needs and comforts are what get the attention…

…I don’t need to concern myself with dressing modestly, because MY comfort is what matters! Oh, God understands!

It was edifying to see so many, many young people from other parts of the world… …approach the altar dressing modestly.

Likewise it makes you downright cringe to see so many Westerners or Americanized Catholics standing there at Mass half naked, strolling up for Holy Communion looking around at everything else…

We spoke to many pilgrims, NOT Americanized, who simply left a number of official events, because they said, in their words, they couldn’t pray. Too many distractions, occasions of sin, silliness, and not enough seriousness.

…With Americanism, it is the liturgy that has suffered: in dress, respect, awereness, and eventually attendance. Why should anyone feel like there’s anything special about Mass, when a huge number of the few people who still attend adopt the attitude and dress of a day out at the beach?

Until Americanism is addressed in the Church, it’s going to be a tough road back to a reverent, faithful, meaningful, vibrant, true Catholicism in Western countries.

A friend of mine who was priviledged to attend came back with tales that struck us all with horror. They all felt embarrased. She said it was so bad they couldn’t even find rosaries to buy. They found them in Fashion jewellery section of stores with “FASHION” spelled all over them. She told us in our youth group what a young man with them who complained was told. It sounded pretty much like “Shush! Don’t judge them. Don’t talk about it or they might hear you and actually be ashamed!” I think that the Western Church should correct itself and stop trying to make everybody else swallow a frog just because they have. This is a true description of what is going on. I can tell, and I’m not even American or European!
I also think that if this issue is coming up again and again it’s because the placative “Let them come as they are” is not working! It can’t work, because the idea is for the Church to influence them, not the other way round. Yes, come as you are, but for the love of God please do NOT remain as you are. Jesus after forgiving even the most despicable sinners would say: Sin no more. He didn’t leave them to continue in their error, neither should we.

 

[LightBound]

Quote:

When you see the whole world come together in the faith at an event like this, some things become very visible, they stick out. The biggest thing by far that sticks out, is just how far Americanism has infected the Church in many countries…

…the idea of a kind of rugged, independent, “don’t tell us what to do, we’ll do it our own way” kind of attitude. What this has caused in America and countries America has influenced, is a heavy streak of theological independence which manifests itself in many ways.

When you attend Mass at an event like World Youth Day, where worshipers gather from many different countries, Americans and their theological allies stick out like sore thumbs. The irreverent dress, many times immodest…

…the Catholic Church in America has accommodated Protestantism, especially the American brand of Protestantism. It’s so much about feeling and emotion, and feeling good, and touchy-feely and community. Mass is more about the people who attend it, than the God who is worshiped at it. And, since the people are the focus, the people’s needs and comforts are what get the attention…

…I don’t need to concern myself with dressing modestly, because MY comfort is what matters! Oh, God understands!

It was edifying to see so many, many young people from other parts of the world… …approach the altar dressing modestly.

Likewise it makes you downright cringe to see so many Westerners or Americanized Catholics standing there at Mass half naked, strolling up for Holy Communion looking around at everything else…

We spoke to many pilgrims, NOT Americanized, who simply left a number of official events, because they said, in their words, they couldn’t pray. Too many distractions, occasions of sin, silliness, and not enough seriousness.

…With Americanism, it is the liturgy that has suffered: in dress, respect, awereness, and eventually attendance. Why should anyone feel like there’s anything special about Mass, when a huge number of the few people who still attend adopt the attitude and dress of a day out at the beach?

Until Americanism is addressed in the Church, it’s going to be a tough road back to a reverent, faithful, meaningful, vibrant, true Catholicism in Western countries.

A friend of mine who was priviledged to attend came back with tales that struck us all with horror. They all felt embarrased. She said it was so bad they couldn’t even find rosaries to buy. They found them in Fashion jewellery section of stores with “FASHION” spelled all over them. She told us in our youth group what a young man with them who complained was told. It sounded pretty much like “Shush! Don’t judge them. Don’t talk about it or they might hear you and actually be ashamed!” I think that the Western Church should correct itself and stop trying to make everybody else swallow a frog just because they have. This is a true description of what is going on. I can tell, and I’m not even American or European!
I also think that if this issue is coming up again and again it’s because the placative “Let them come as they are” is not working! It can’t work, because the idea is for the Church to influence them, not the other way round. Yes, come as you are, but for the love of God please do NOT remain as you are. Jesus after forgiving even the most despicable sinners would say: Sin no more. He didn’t leave them to continue in their error, neither should we.

Okay, I see you’re not in the USA. That would explain why you are in an area where the parishes can ban pants and why your comments seem a little negative about Catholics in other countries or on a different continent. I’m sure you don’t mean to sound that way, but the West isn’t to blame for all the problems in the world…

 

[LightBound]

When you see the whole world come together in the faith at an event like this, some things become very visible, they stick out. The biggest thing by far that sticks out, is just how far Americanism has infected the Church in many countries…

…the idea of a kind of rugged, independent, “don’t tell us what to do, we’ll do it our own way” kind of attitude. What this has caused in America and countries America has influenced, is a heavy streak of theological independence which manifests itself in many ways.

When you attend Mass at an event like World Youth Day, where worshipers gather from many different countries, Americans and their theological allies stick out like sore thumbs. The irreverent dress, many times immodest…

…the Catholic Church in America has accommodated Protestantism, especially the American brand of Protestantism. It’s so much about feeling and emotion, and feeling good, and touchy-feely and community. Mass is more about the people who attend it, than the God who is worshiped at it. And, since the people are the focus, the people’s needs and comforts are what get the attention…

…I don’t need to concern myself with dressing modestly, because MY comfort is what matters! Oh, God understands!

It was edifying to see so many, many young people from other parts of the world… …approach the altar dressing modestly.

Likewise it makes you downright cringe to see so many Westerners or Americanized Catholics standing there at Mass half naked, strolling up for Holy Communion looking around at everything else…

We spoke to many pilgrims, NOT Americanized, who simply left a number of official events, because they said, in their words, they couldn’t pray. Too many distractions, occasions of sin, silliness, and not enough seriousness.

…With Americanism, it is the liturgy that has suffered: in dress, respect, awereness, and eventually attendance. Why should anyone feel like there’s anything special about Mass, when a huge number of the few people who still attend adopt the attitude and dress of a day out at the beach?

Until Americanism is addressed in the Church, it’s going to be a tough road back to a reverent, faithful, meaningful, vibrant, true Catholicism in Western countries.

A friend of mine who was priviledged to attend came back with tales that struck us all with horror. They all felt embarrased. She said it was so bad they couldn’t even find rosaries to buy. They found them in Fashion jewellery section of stores with “FASHION” spelled all over them. She told us in our youth group what a young man with them who complained was told. It sounded pretty much like “Shush! Don’t judge them. Don’t talk about it or they might hear you and actually be ashamed!” I think that the Western Church should correct itself and stop trying to make everybody else swallow a frog just because they have. This is a true description of what is going on. I can tell, and I’m not even American or European!
I also think that if this issue is coming up again and again it’s because the placative “Let them come as they are” is not working! It can’t work, because the idea is for the Church to influence them, not the other way round. Yes, come as you are, but for the love of God please do NOT remain as you are. Jesus after forgiving even the most despicable sinners would say: Sin no more. He didn’t leave them to continue in their error, neither should we.

**Okay, I see from your above quoted posts that you’re not in the USA. That would explain why you are in an area where the parishes can ban pants and why your comments seem a little negative about Catholics in other countries or on a different continent. I’m sure you don’t mean to sound that way, but the West isn’t to blame for all the problems in the Church or the world… **​

 

[RedSoxWife]

Sorry, but people telling other people what they should wear by insisting on a certain interpretation of what is modest is a pet-peeve of mine (and not that you have done that, but others sure have on every modesty thread we’ve ever had on CAF).

I choose to read and reply on those threads so that others will be informed on what the Vatican says is appropropriate, hence the stick-figure sign outside Vatican churches, instead of those posts that are speculating on and trying to interpret what an apparition (approved or not) of the Blessed Mother said or what a verse in Deuteronomy meant. (again, I’m not saying you have done that). A quick search of past threads will show that plenty of people have been quoting things supposedly said at Fatima, when the official Vatican site says no such thing or they dig up the verse in Deut. which was written when no one in Biblical lands wore pants or trousers.

I think one reason it comes up again and again is because in our culture people our confused about what’s appropriate and some of us are trying to come to terms with it. I know when I converted I’d never even thought about modesty and as I began to have an awareness of it it was helpful to have a place where I could read other opinions and ask questions. But I can also understand why people struggle with distractions in what other where, because sometimes it can feel kind of ridiculous when people are flashing body parts in outfits fit for a club. When that happens I try to pray and pray and pray and not think anything, but I can definitely understand why it’s a struggle and why it comes up.

On the other hand I think it’s a case by case basis, which is why those little stick figures that show the bare minimum are so helpful. If people just followed those (make sure this and this and this are covered!) I’d be pretty happy. But yes, I would much rather see someone in Church, maybe about to develop a sense of modesty, then not there at all.

 

[LightBound]

I think one reason it comes up again and again is because in our culture people our confused about what’s appropriate and some of us are trying to come to terms with it. I know when I converted I’d never even thought about modesty and as I began to have an awareness of it it was helpful to have a place where I could read other opinions and ask questions. But I can also understand why people struggle with distractions in what other where, because sometimes it can feel kind of ridiculous when people are flashing body parts in outfits fit for a club. When that happens I try to pray and pray and pray and not think anything, but I can definitely understand why it’s a struggle and why it comes up.

On the other hand I think it’s a case by case basis, which is why those little stick figures that show the bare minimum are so helpful. If people just followed those (make sure this and this and this are covered!) I’d be pretty happy. But yes, I would much rather see someone in Church, maybe about to develop a sense of modesty, then not there at all.

While I don’t always agree with your posts, I whole-heartedly do on this one. You are kind, charitable, and sincerely polite when you post- even when you vehemently disagree with something. I can think many of us CAF members can all learn from your example of communicating- even if we tend to disagree on certain things.

 

[severus68]

Sigh. I wish everyone would just let it ago. I’m hopeful it won’t turn into yet another typical modesty thread with the same worn-out rants, but the odds are against us. Let’s pray for a miracle that the thread will die out.

This will as others have taken the OP’s lead and just refuse to respond to the usual you know what. However, another similar thread is not going well. I want to top responding but those new or uncertain may well be ‘persuaded’ to believe in some extreme views.

 

[severus68]

The reason it comes up over and over again is because it’s one of the issues and challenges that we face as Catholics in our modern society. If we don’t like modesty threads, we can always not post in them or read them. They’re usually pretty clearly marked by their names.

Sorry people telling other people what they should or shouldn’t discuss on these forums is a pet peeve of mine. It’s not like anyone is forcing us to read a particular thread…

It is strange that when the OP herself has said she realises it is a trivial issue and she would rather concentrate on themass, others insist on dragging the thread on.

 

[severus68]

I was going to read all the posts before replying, but after the third page I felt I couldn’t take it anymore. Why does everyone keep saying: Well at least they came? I don’t know if you all know how that sounds. And since when is correcting someone being judgmental? There is something we owe to our brothers and sisters in the faith and that is Charity. True charity which in this case will be shown by letting someone know that what they are doing is wrong, irrespective of your worries or fear of what others might think of you. Correction not so that we can be satisfied with being better in one aspect of virtue than the person, but so that we can help the person along the way to God! Yes, thank God they came, but after that then what? They sit in the pews forever without taking a step closer to loving God and His Christ, His Church and somehow that’s okay because " at least they were there"?
Please! Lets not give excuses for our lack of charity and boldness in proclaiming the truth.
The teachers of the doctrines of the church are the priests and they should be listened to. If someone will have no respect for the priest or Jesus in the blessed sacrament or for the Holy sacrifice of the mass, then the person has things explained to them after which a failure to comply will show that the person has no respect for authority. But at least they would have heard it pointblank. We can’t just sit and hope that someday the light will shine in their hearts while they cause distractions and give bad example to others.

I will give the example again of what a priest said after mass in a Parish I once attended. He said that he had refused six people communion because their dresses were improper and their bosoms were showing because of their low cut necklines. He announced to all present that such immodest dressing and transparent clothing or short clothing above the knee will not be tolerated. He advised that women desist from it and that they would be denied communion as long as they persisted, but they would not be refused entry into the church in the hope that someday they will listen to Christ. I was pleased.

I wish someone had told me earlier about proper dress sense. I found out on my own later and I was upset because I thought that since nobody said anything it meant the dress was acceptable

I think that we stand the risk of lowering the bar because we are afraid we’d be acting judgmental and Christians who just get by are not the Christians the Church needs now. So they’ll feel bad, or angry and may never come back. Then we pray for them, because if they wouldn’t listen to truth, they probably would have a hard time listening to Christ anyway and those are not the kind of friends Christ wants. Things will only get worse. If shorts are okay, next will be short shorts, and then soon someone would just get out of the beach and straight into church for mass.
In many parishes in the state I currently school in, Trousers are banned. Not to veil your hair is a taboo and guess what? We still can’t find sits in the third mass on Sunday-everywhere is full!

Let us not think that Christ does not need us to show the way to others. I especially think that the Parish priests are responsible for the respect or lack of it that the Parishioners show. The pulpit is not there for nothing, their authority has not been given them for nothing-they should use it. Talk about it during the homily or announce it after the communion whatever. We will be held accountable for the bad we did, but also for the good we did not do. These people need us even if they don’t know it. I’ve said things in a rush. Sorry.

I do not think that priest had any right refusing communion. The Sacrament comes from God.

The Church does not prohibit the wearing of trousers or requires veiling, those priests obviously make their own rules.

 

[Portrait]

I think one reason it comes up again and again is because in our culture people our confused about what’s appropriate and some of us are trying to come to terms with it. I know when I converted I’d never even thought about modesty and as I began to have an awareness of it it was helpful to have a place where I could read other opinions and ask questions. But I can also understand why people struggle with distractions in what other where, because sometimes it can feel kind of ridiculous when people are flashing body parts in outfits fit for a club. When that happens I try to pray and pray and pray and not think anything, but I can definitely understand why it’s a struggle and why it comes up.

On the other hand I think it’s a case by case basis, which is why those little stick figures that show the bare minimum are so helpful. If people just followed those (make sure this and this and this are covered!) I’d be pretty happy. But yes, I would much rather see someone in Church, maybe about to develop a sense of modesty, then not there at all.

Dear RedSoxWife,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

You are quite correct, there is a great deal of confusion concerning what constitutes modest clothing today and that is why the topic generates the volume of discussion that it does on these boards. This is no negative or unhealthy thing, for by debating the issue ignorance will, hopefully, be dispelled and erroneous un-Catholic teaching refuted. Thus there is no valid reason to stifle debate on modest attire, indeed, there is every good reason to encourgage it as that will assist people in forming correct views that are consonant with Catholic teaching and tradition.

The problem today, dear sister, is that many contemporary Catholics are taking their cue as to what is modest or immodest from the prevailing culture, even though that culture is in a dire state of moral and cultural deterioration. What they need to remember is that it was to the Catholic Church and not fallen secular society that Christ entrusted the supernatural wisdom to discern what constitutes a spiritual danger as regards soul-destroying customs, such as immodest clothing. This is why we should look to the collective wisdom of Holy Mother Church throughout the ages as that will not lead us astray, on the contrary, it will aid us in developing a well-formed conscience that will not be prone to make catastrophic errors of prudential judgment with respect to clothing choices.

It is frequently pleaded nowadays that because the Magisterium has not issued some official proscription against indecorous garments such as the mini-skirt or bikini, then it is case of dublis libertas (where a doubt exists freedom should be granted). This, I will concede, sounds superficially plausible, but it is, notwithstanding, a fundamentally flawed argument because it ignores the extrinsic tradition of the Church and the role of a well-formed conscience in correctly discerning that tradition as true and trustworthy. A radically defective conscience not only discounts tradtion, but even stumbles over the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church which forbids all provocative style clothing, such as mini-skirts, shorts or garments which adhere tightly to the body, by any reasonable interpretation.

What we have today in the modern Church is an attempt by many to vindicate unseemly clothing by the adapting of Catholic moral standards of dress to those of the godless world. Years ago this more admiring and positive view of immodest and inappropriate clothing would have been called conformity to the world and compromise. St. Paul exhorts us: “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is good and acceptable” (Rom. 12: 2, emphasis mine) - in other words, cultivate a well-formed conscience so that you will be able discern what is good and acceptable for those who profess religion, be it clothing or anything else for that matter. Moreover, ostentation and unseemly clothing hardly points to a spiritual mind that is fixed on heavenly things (cf. Col. 3: 2). Inward purity and chastity will always express itself in outward modesty and will avoid trespassing the boundaries of propriety and good taste (I Tim. 2: 9).

Yes, dear sister, we should rejoice to see a goodly number of people at Holy Mass, but an obligation is laid upon the priest to rebuke those who dress immodestly and are inconsiderate to others in so doing. Fraternal and gentle correction is also necessary by the faithful, so long as its is done in a charitable manner with a view to restoration and reform (Gal. 6: 1). There is nothing judgmental is seeking to convince a man or woman of their error or inappropriate clothing choices, for this will, hopefully, bring them back to the path of virtue, or put them on it if they recent converts to our most holy religion.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[heart4home]

Dear RedSoxWife,

What we have today in the modern Church is an attempt by many to vindicate unseemly clothing by the adapting of Catholic moral standards of dress to those of the godless world. Years ago this more admiring and positive view of immodest and inappropriate clothing would have been called conformity to the world and compromise. St. Paul exhorts us: “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is good and acceptable” (Rom. 12: 2, emphasis mine) - in other words, cultivate a well-formed conscience so that you will be able discern what is good and acceptable for those who profess religion, be it clothing or anything else for that matter. Moreover, ostentation and unseemly clothing hardly points to a spiritual mind that is fixed on heavenly things (cf. Col. 3: 2). Inward purity and chastity will always express itself in outward modesty and will avoid trespassing the boundaries of propriety and good taste (I Tim. 2: 9).

Yes, dear sister, we should rejoice to see a goodly number of people at Holy Mass, but an obligation is laid upon the priest to rebuke those who dress immodestly and are inconsiderate to others in so doing. Fraternal and gentle correction is also necessary by the faithful, so long as its is done in a charitable manner with a view to restoration and reform (Gal. 6: 1). There is nothing judgmental is seeking to convince a man or woman of their error or inappropriate clothing choices, for this will, hopefully, bring them back to the path of virtue, or put them on it if they recent converts to our most holy religion.

Pax

I agree with all of this.

Also, I believe there is nothing wrong with expressing a concern or in having a desire to see other parishioners consider others. Charity works both ways. In the same way that I try to be charitable in my thoughts when I see somebody dressed in a way I feel uncomfortable with or believe to be immodest, I would hope that others would be open to hearing(reading) how their mode of dress does impact others. Then they can prayerfully consider if they should consider changes.

As an example, two weeks ago Sunday, a young lady, maybe 18 or so, came into church with her parents with a skirt that was so short, that she had her hands on her bottom the whole time to make sure it was indeed actually covering it. I kid you not and believe me when I say that it barely was. This young lady sat directly, in front of my 19 year old son. When we left church he commented on it. I had also taken notice.

Now before you jump on me or him I of course told my son that his eyes should be front and center at the altar and priest, and that he could close his eyes while praying if he felt it a distraction, and he agreed, but at the same time I commiserated with him that it would be nice if young ladies would just wear their skirts a tiny bit longer (to the knee or even an inch above) and take some concern for the comfort of others.

People become so offended over posts that discuss the perceived immodesty of some and make a million excuses for why it is OK and how these threads get old and tiresome.

But you know it really is OK to have a discussion (yes even every month or so for the newbies) and let others know, just in case they should actually happen to care or be unaware, that their mode of dress could be leading a young boy/man, still working on his own moral conscience formation, still dealing with hormones etc. to have impure thoughts about them.

I recently heard a talk by Jason Evert and he talked about this very thing. He didn’t seem to mind telling it like it is, and Catholic Parishes and schools all over the U.S. have him in to speak.

People need to hear and become aware about how their actions and choices can and do effect their brothers and sisters in Christ.

They don’t have to change, but I actually believe that if their own conscience was properly formed, they would actually care enough to maybe make a few

 

[severus68]

I agree with all of this.

Also, I believe there is nothing wrong with expressing a concern or in having a desire to see other parishioners consider others. Charity works both ways. In the same way that I try to be charitable in my thoughts when I see somebody dressed in a way I feel uncomfortable with or believe to be immodest, I would hope that others would be open to hearing(reading) how their mode of dress does impact others. Then they can prayerfully consider if they should consider changes.

As an example, two weeks ago Sunday, a young lady, maybe 18 or so, came into church with her parents with a skirt that was so short, that she had her hands on her bottom the whole time to make sure it was indeed actually covering it. I kid you not and believe me when I say that it barely was. This young lady sat directly, in front of my 19 year old son. When we left church he commented on it. I had also taken notice.

Now before you jump on me or him I of course told my son that his eyes should be front and center at the altar and priest, and that he could close his eyes while praying if he felt it a distraction, and he agreed, but at the same time I commiserated with him that it would be nice if young ladies would just wear their skirts a tiny bit longer (to the knee or even an inch above) and take some concern for the comfort of others.

People become so offended over posts that discuss the perceived immodesty of some and make a million excuses for why it is OK and how these threads get old and tiresome.

But you know it really is OK to have a discussion (yes even every month or so for the newbies) and let others know, just in case they should actually happen to care or be unaware, that their mode of dress could be leading a young boy/man, still working on his own moral conscience formation, still dealing with hormones etc. to have impure thoughts about them.

I recently heard a talk by Jason Evert and he talked about this very thing. He didn’t seem to mind telling it like it is, and Catholic Parishes and schools all over the U.S. have him in to speak.

People need to hear and become aware about how their actions and choices can and do effect their brothers and sisters in Christ.

They don’t have to change, but I actually believe that if their own conscience was properly formed, they would actually care enough to maybe make a few

So would a woman still working on her moral formation also get a pass? I know that in schools , boys had a lot of help with their hormones with all the exercise/ sports and other activities they were given.
With this kind of reasoning, women should just wear sackcloths a few sizes too big, cover their faces too.

 

[Portrait]

I agree with all of this.

Also, I believe there is nothing wrong with expressing a concern or in having a desire to see other parishioners consider others. Charity works both ways. In the same way that I try to be charitable in my thoughts when I see somebody dressed in a way I feel uncomfortable with or believe to be immodest, I would hope that others would be open to hearing(reading) how their mode of dress does impact others. Then they can prayerfully consider if they should consider changes.

As an example, two weeks ago Sunday, a young lady, maybe 18 or so, came into church with her parents with a skirt that was so short, that she had her hands on her bottom the whole time to make sure it was indeed actually covering it. I kid you not and believe me when I say that it barely was. This young lady sat directly, in front of my 19 year old son. When we left church he commented on it. I had also taken notice.

Now before you jump on me or him I of course told my son that his eyes should be front and center at the altar and priest, and that he could close his eyes while praying if he felt it a distraction, and he agreed, but at the same time I commiserated with him that it would be nice if young ladies would just wear their skirts a tiny bit longer (to the knee or even an inch above) and take some concern for the comfort of others.

People become so offended over posts that discuss the perceived immodesty of some and make a million excuses for why it is OK and how these threads get old and tiresome.

But you know it really is OK to have a discussion (yes even every month or so for the newbies) and let others know, just in case they should actually happen to care or be unaware, that their mode of dress could be leading a young boy/man, still working on his own moral conscience formation, still dealing with hormones etc. to have impure thoughts about them.

I recently heard a talk by Jason Evert and he talked about this very thing. He didn’t seem to mind telling it like it is, and Catholic Parishes and schools all over the U.S. have him in to speak.

People need to hear and become aware about how their actions and choices can and do effect their brothers and sisters in Christ.

They don’t have to change, but I actually believe that if their own conscience was properly formed, they would actually care enough to maybe make a few

Dear heart4home,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hear, hear, jolly well said and thankyou for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

As you rightly say charity works both ways. Men are indeed reponsible for the custody of their eyes (cf Job 31: 1) and many an impure thought is responsible for enflaming evil desire, but women also have a duty to “adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel” (I Tim. 2: 9) so that they also do not enflame lustful desire in men. As regards modesty it is not a question of either/or but of both/and, with both sexes doing their bit to minimise and neutralize the strength of concupiscence. Moreover, modesty in dress has always and rightly been considered by Catholics a bastion against sexual license and the elimination of opportuntity. Both men *and *women are, as it were, co-operators together in the battle for chastity and purity and so actually need one another. It is only a warped radical feminism which would seek to place the burden entirely upon the man’s shoulders and free the woman from all responsibilty to dress in a way that does not offend decency.

You and your son should not have to be confronted with the sight of a young lady dressed in such an indecorous manner at Holy Mass. However, so many young Catholics have indiscriminately adopted the seductive style fashions of the world as a consequence of poor catechesis and not having a well-formed conscience. This tragic loss of moral sense blights the contemporrary Church and I really do feel that the clergy must do more at the grass roots level to instruct our young people about the duty of dressing in a manner that does transgress the boundaries of propriety, especially at Holy Mass. No one is saying that girls/women must ensure that every square inch of their bodies are covered, but they must not draw the attention of men by being scantily clad or doning tightly fitting garments that accentuate body parts. Women must strive to be circumspect as regards their clothing choices, as befitts those who profess religion.

Unfortunately, owing to the Laodicean times in which our lot is cast, many consider any criticism of immodest clothing as ‘Puritan’ and judgmental. Indeed, the word ‘judgmental’ is often thrown around as the ultimate last line of defence when people take strong objection to what someone is saying. However, calling someone ‘judgmental’ cannot be a substitute for rational and reasoned discussion. Yes I agree, dear friend, people do need to hear how their actions and choices affect their brethren in Christ, for perhaps then they would understand more clearly how their scantily dressed bodies are a near occasion of sin, especially for young men with a strong libido.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[PPC]

So would a woman still working on her moral formation also get a pass? I know that in schools , boys had a lot of help with their hormones with all the exercise/ sports and other activities they were given.
With this kind of reasoning, women should just wear sackcloths a few sizes too big, cover their faces too.

Modesty in dress is an important issue for all believers.

1 Timothy 2:9 (NKJV)
9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,

I am not advocating a return to head coverings, namely hats, for women since they did become a distraction in themselves in the past and most likely would again if head coverings with no restrictions on style became mandated.

A simple white or black veil or mantilla would be appropriate for all women and I would gladly wear one now except for the fact that if I do, I would then become a distraction since I would be the only one wearing one. There is no Tridentine Mass near enough for me to attend or I would definitely attend and this is simply because the people who attend are more reverent in their worship and they dress modestly.

When Paul was teaching and writing about head coverings, his point was that the elaborate hair styles in that time period were a distraction to others in church. He mentioned the angels in defense of his teaching:

1 Corinthians 11:10 NKJV
9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord.

The Seraphim, the beautiful angels who serve the Most High God in His very presence, were created to serve Him under His authority. These angels continually worship Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament in all of our Catholic and Orthodox churches throughout the world. They literally cover their own beauty with their own wings in their reverent humility towards God.

Isaiah 6:1-3 (NKJV)
6 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one cried to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”

Women, likewise should dress in a humble, modest, and non-distracting manner if they desire to please God.

 

[heart4home]

So would a woman still working on her moral formation also get a pass? I know that in schools , boys had a lot of help with their hormones with all the exercise/ sports and other activities they were given.
With this kind of reasoning, women should just wear sackcloths a few sizes too big, cover their faces too.

Of course they would. That’s why, as I already said, I told my son that he should look away, close his eyes and say a prayer to not be thinking anything he shouldn’t. I tell my children all the time that we are all on different stages of our journey. We’ve all taken different paths. We all stumble and need the charity of each other.

My point was. We should discuss these things on these message boards even if it seems repetitive to help make others aware of them and what their actions may unintentionally do. In this way that girl that was in front of my son, might one day realize that she could dress a little more modestly at least for Mass, while at the same tim my son is learning that he is responsible to control his thoughts and eyes. We help each other. That’s what Christians do.

I think if you reread my post with an open mind you will see that I said, charity must go both ways. That we must teach and learn from each other, instead of jumping all over each other, as soon as we hit a sentence in a post that ruffles our feathers.

You don’t have to wear a sack cloth. You are taking what I said and twisting it and making it into something that was never intended. A skirt to the knee, or an inch above as I clearly stated, is not the same as sackcloth, but you seem to want to take offense instead of reading the words that have been written.

 

[Delaine75]

I hear ya. At yesterday’s Mass, there was a woman who sat beside me and was wearing a dress so short and so tight that she couldn’t even KNEEL!

 

[L_piperatus]

Why does everyone keep saying: Well at least they came? I don’t know if you all know how that sounds. And since when is correcting someone being judgmental? There is something we owe to our brothers and sisters in the faith and that is Charity. True charity which in this case will be shown by letting someone know that what they are doing is wrong, irrespective of your worries or fear of what others might think of you. Correction not so that we can be satisfied with being better in one aspect of virtue than the person, but so that we can help the person along the way to God! Yes, thank God they came, but after that then what? They sit in the pews forever without taking a step closer to loving God and His Christ, His Church and somehow that’s okay because " at least they were there"?
Please! Lets not give excuses for our lack of charity and boldness in proclaiming the truth.

Bonjovie, you made a great point about our Christian duty to admonish and correct those who are in error. To admonish the sinner, to instruct the ignorant, are actually spiritual works of mercy. Conversely, the real lack of charity consists in failing to admonish the sinners, failing to instruct the ignorant, and leaving people in their errors.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church - paragraph 2447 (bold emphasis mine) - quote from vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm :

2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities. Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead. Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God.

From the Baltimore Catechism of the Catholic Church - Question/Answer 222 (bold emphasis mine) - quote from catholicism.about.com/od/baltimorecatechism/The_Baltimore_Catechism_Q_A_From_the_Baltimore_Catechism.htm :

Question: “Which are the chief spiritual works of mercy?”
Answer: The chief spiritual works of mercy are seven:** To admonish the sinner, to instruct the ignorant, to counsel the doubtful**, to comfort the sorrowful, to bear wrongs patiently, to forgive all injuries, and to pray for the living and the dead.

 

[L_piperatus]

With this kind of reasoning, women should just wear sackcloths a few sizes too big, cover their faces too.

It’s a logical fallacy to suggest that the Catholic Church (or any of the posters on this thread, so far) wants to put women (or men, for that matter) into sackcloths.

Instead of letting our imaginations run wild, let’s listen to what a Catholic priest, Fr. Dominick Mary, teaches us regarding how the Catholic Church expects us to dress for church (click on the link below to watch the video of Fr. Dominick Mary’s sermon):

youtube.com/watch?v=PZHECJJbzPM

To summarize those norms of modesty: “In church, please cover your shoulders and knees.”

Inappropriate for church:

-shorts (for both men and women)
-miniskirts
-swimsuits
-bikinis
-tank tops (for both men and women)
-dresses or skirts above the knees
-bare shoulders
-bare arms
-low-cut dresses
-sleeveless shirts and dresses that bare the arms
-very tight fitting clothing
-bare midriffs
-exposed bellies
-exposed backs
-transparent dresses
-clothes that expose the bellies, backs, cleavage etc while bending down
-blouses and tops that are too tight, revealing and provocative
-tight-fitting clothing that shows the outline of the underwear/underclothes
-tight-fitting spandex clothes
-vulgar tee shirts, vulgar/offensive inscriptions

Necessary for church:

-pants, skirts, dresses should come down to the knees or below
-shirts and dresses should cover the shoulders and have some sort of a sleeve

 

[mellowcalico]

I know it’s not the norm (and that this thread isn’t just about women–although most dress threads are about women); but anyway, this past week, when going to Mass something made me laugh as I was walking in the Church. I looked up at the man in front of me and noticed that the back of his tee shirt sported a woman in a red bikini bent over a word (think it was the name of a band maybe).

It made me think of all the threads that usually criticize women for their dress as immodest because to me, that was probably the most sexually distracting “woman” in the Church (and she was basically an illustration worn on the back of a man).

 

[Crafty_Catholic]

Coming out of a Protestant background, I have always dressed my very best to go to church. My sister, brother and I had a special outfit and shoes just for church and other special occasions and we did not wear them to school. Ever. It took me years to even consider wearing pants to church. So here comes the whine–I have been rather shocked at what parishioners wear to Mass on Sunday morning. If I have an audience with the Queen of England, I will dress up nicely. I have an audience with the King of the Universe each time I go to Mass so why wouldn’t I wear my best for Him? I know, I know, I should be happy that they are in the pews. However, I was very dismayed when a teenage girl in the pew in front of me last Sunday was wearing short shorts. Over and over I’ve reminded myself that at least they ARE in church and it’s really none of my business how they dress. Do I need to get over this? In the great scheme of things this is not an earth shattering issue, but I find it disrespectful and a bit disconcerting.

When my daughter asks why she has to wear a dress I explain to her because we are going to see a king. I really am the only one who dresses up at my church, so I always look overdressed compared to the jeans and t-shirts I usually see. I just hope that maybe my example might inspire others someday.